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I was just trying to go over the points that you had brought up concerning how Jesus fits into this question of Hell, and our own possibility of going to that place.
Was just giving a taste to those hungry enough to search it out for themselves, not force-feeding anyone.
originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ShemaI meant getting out of Hell, rather than getting out of "here", since I'm not too sure that there is another place to go to that is not essentially the same as what we are presently enjoying in this life.
I rather like what you said which is to say I kinda agree but get out of here to go where?I am currently studying that problem, mostly in the context of the NT writings of Paul.
You didn't mention that bit.
I think that he frames certain concepts within the apocalyptic viewpoint because he sees the historical point from which he was writing as the apocalypse in action.
But analyzing it to look for specifics as to a future forecast, you rather find these more mundane problems being solved as to the sinful condition of man to the point of being irredeemable as things currently stand.
The antidote to the being lost to the obscurity of non existence, to Paul is the framework of a celebration of life in sharing the gloriousness of the freedom from sin, concerning the aspect of the seemingly obvious harsh reality that it has the power over us to cause our deaths and not just in a temporary manner, but in a way that was too frightening to even contemplate.
Paul, I think, envisions this celebration as the calling of the divine messenger to share in the assembly of the saints, the appreciation of Jesus' status before God, and our obedience to his law in our loving each other.
So to borrow a term from the church, a communion as it is empowered by God, in a real physical spirituality that defies the power of sin to rule over us, as we at that moment, experience a glorification and perfection.
This is like a bolstering of the self to withstand the horrors of death, and all that it entails, such as demons and Hell.
So, what it looks like to me is that here in this book, the New Testament, is the manual for apocalyptic church, the thing that was looked forward to, with the apocalyptic religion that will send us properly prepared for the afterlife, but not especially interested in describing what that might be exactly.
That comes from Revelation 13:8, where it is often translated that way, to where it sounds like it is saying that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.
This is why the bible also says Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth... again, if he wasn't, we would have died in the garden of Eden after Adam sinned. We needed that protection from sin before our earth was even a twinkle in the cosmos.
I've read some books, you see.
Is this what life is really all about, preparing ourselves for the after-life? It occurs to me that the Ancient Egyptions certainly believed it was. Few people would see it that way these days I shouldn't think.
originally posted by: tsingtao
slaves? it might have condoned it but it had restrictions with how to deal with them.
today, we don't have slaves so what the bible says, doesn't apply.
but if we did, people would have to abide by the rules. lol.
if we want to go down that slave path, the owners who broke the rules would be in trouble.
no one knows what they will face when being judged.
no man or woman has any ability to tell you what your fate will be.
originally posted by: bigcountry08
a reply to: tallcool1
He doesn't believe that the bible is true just like you, your both deceivers. what version of the bible do you believe in? one that manipulates it to the point where everyone goes to heaven even though Christ himself proclaimed that some would not make it to heaven. Nice avatar, thanks for warning us who you really are.
originally posted by: Skyfloating
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
I learned something new with your post, so thanks for that.
Being burned for refinement is an interesting image. All superflous pieces the soul has accumulated, burnt off.
Being a Seventh Day Adventist, I was taught differently as a child, so never had these ideas of eternal torment.
It was a blanked "nope, either you worship Jesus, or you're going to be tortured forever".
originally posted by: ConvincedMan
a reply to: tallcool1
If Heaven is only for people who meet the conditions that they claim God and Christ set for us - it will remain eternally empty. Other than Jesus Himself, no one ever has nor ever will meet the standard.
Good! Glad you got it! You see what Christianity is all about.
Christians believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God; that's a foundational requirement of Christianity. Don't believe the Bible is true? Well, you're something other than an authentic Christian.
That said, the whole premise of Christianity is that human beings are sinful and can never get to heaven on their own. We can't get there through our good works or by being a good person. The only way we can get there is through Jesus Christ as Savior.
God, being perfectly holy, cannot allow sin in his presence. Christ, the only sinless person, was the only one who met that high standard. He became the perfect sacrifice for humanity's sins. People who believe in and follow Christ (Christians), are credited with his righteousness through justification. We are "made holy" through him.
Believe it or not, it's your choice. I'm never going to convince you. You can be angry, skeptical, cynical or just plain stubborn, but you're right: Heaven is only for people who meet the conditions God and Christ set for us, and it's not that WE think that. It's that the Bible says it, especially in Paul's letters, such as Romans and Galatians.
So take it or leave it. Take Christ and be born again into his holiness, or leave it and take the consequences in eternity.
Oh, and yes, Christians DO continue to sin. But Christ's death on the cross paid the penalty for our sins past, present and future. He didn't die for those who refuse to believe in him. That would be universalism, and the Bible does NOT teach that.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
See my earlier post on this thread explaning those verses, www.abovetopsecret.com... "Works" as it is used in the context that you cited, means following the Law of Moses as a proper Jew.
The Bible is clear in Romans 3 and makes it more than clear that it is faith in Jesus Christ that saves, not works.
As I explained earlier, Paul was pointing out from the Law itself, that just following the Law was not enough to be truly righteous.
As you can see above, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned, and in Romans 6:23 we see the result of that sin.
That verse in Isaiah is not about "being good". It was about how the priests of the temple who kept the Law were made to suffer along with everyone else, for the sins of the people who were worshiping outside of the temple, at local altars and with priests who were not proper priests according to the Law.
It doesn't matter how "good" someone is, or what "good" they do. The good that people do is only considered good by man, however God has a different opinion. Isaiah 64:6 says..
Obviously it is not being used to be understood literally, it is a metaphor for being thrown away like something no one would ever want to reuse for any purpose, being already about as defiled as you can get.
I know that is gross, and I apologize for the crassness, but that is the literal translation.
That is not why Paul wrote that in Romans.
The one and only thing that matters is if you believe on the LORD Jesus Christ to save you. In order to do that you must first humble yourself and come to the realization that you are a sinner, have offended God, and that you are in need of a Savior.
Jesus said, "we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen".
. . . if you willingly accept the morals and values preached by Jesus as most of us do even if grudgingly at times, then you are in effect a disciple whether you consider yourself one or not.