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The Myth of Eternal Damnation

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posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 03:12 AM
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originally posted by: ParasuvO


So another words, you are not going to make this life count... but to live in perpetual fear of all things unknown, only partially known SOME things at best.



I live in fear of no one and nothing. I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion but okay...

A2D




posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 03:34 AM
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a reply to: ConvincedMan

I agreed with everything until the last statement. Christ died for EVERYone, not just those that believed in him. If he only died for those that believed in him, then when he died on the cross only the believers would have lived... the whole point of the sacrifice was so that we could live and learn, to persist in this world with the ability to change. This is why the bible also says Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth... again, if he wasn't, we would have died in the garden of Eden after Adam sinned. We needed that protection from sin before our earth was even a twinkle in the cosmos.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 03:52 AM
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a reply to: AfterInfinity

I completely agree with you. I feel bad that we are essentially left to wallow in our own filth until the so-called "time is right". No one has a way to connect with God anymore outside of our own (sometimes imagined) perception. I feel we are utterly alone right now. I have my own personal connection with God, only because of the internal struggle within myself to rationalize Him. To be honest, I'm too logical to believe in such a fairy tale... but I can't deny what is fighting constantly within myself, to free itself of this illusion of reality, telling me to hold out.... "just wait a little longer, endure a little more".

Sometimes I just break down into tears because I can't convey such a feeling to anyone. I can't articulate a causal relationship to why I should feel like this... I've had this feeling for as long as I can remember and no matter how much I hurt and hate this world and everything it stands for, I'm always reminded to keep pushing forward... to keep enduring that it's not all for nothing. If anyone else feels helpless in this way, know that you're not alone.

Spirituality is not something you can convey to another person, it's an experience, which translates into a way of life. It's not tradition or hyperbole. It's real. It's love. It's inside. At times, it's unbearable. Well that.... was.... personal.... Sorry about that. I just want you to know, I completely understand your position and there are days I wish I could give this up, but at the same time.... I don't want to. Like I said, there's no way I could ever convey this.

I am my Fathers son, whether I like it or not, even as the tears flow like a wellspring.
edit on 8-6-2014 by Aedaeum because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 04:20 AM
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a reply to: Skyfloating



I mean lets take Hitler for example. I can see how punishing him for a hundred years might seem reasonable and an opportunity to "learn the lesson" or as a deterrent.


Making him go through every person's experience would be enough. I do get your point tho. What's the point for eternal punishment?

That is one thing that some christians have never really explained.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 05:52 AM
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originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: john666 No one is innocent. It is just a matter of remembering what you done wrong last time around but the point is too forget. Where is there a rule that says one must know what the punishment is for. However if one searches themselves then guilt can be found all around. What do you mean you people



If that what you say is true, than children who are sacrificed, or abused form the day they are born, are "guilty", for "something".
My intuition and my reason, tell me that this isn't true.
When I was referring to "you people", I was referring to those of you who think - because of your cowardice - that everything bad that happens, happens for a GOOD REASON.
Be that reason punishment, or something else.
edit on 8-6-2014 by john666 because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-6-2014 by john666 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 06:55 AM
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originally posted by: bigcountry08
a reply to: Skyfloating

none of your quotes contradict mine in the least.

just because you destroy something doesn't mean its not there the pieces still remain, you can destroy an engine, or an engine can die but it as a whole is still there it still exists but its function is just ruined. or function is to praise God and be in connection with him through the holy spirit. when we go to hell he destroys us by destroying our one true purpose which is to be connected with him and to worship him.


Now you're simply re-interpreting what the words "perish", "death" and "destruction" mean to suit your views.

I could do the same: I could say "Well...uh...eternal torment simply means torment in a timeless realm, not literally eternal on a timeline" or something to that extent.

I`ll grant that I have been shown a few verses that point to eternal torment (especially in Revelations), but there are plenty of verses that also point to annhialation (especially in the words of Jesus).

Where does that leave us? It leaves us scratching our heads.

Frankly, the buddhist, islamic and hindu descriptions of hell make more sense to me personally. There, they have different levels, according to how severe the sin. In other words, looking at a womans ankle wont get me tortured for eternity. There are different levels of severity, you see.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 06:58 AM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

That is not true. It was debunked long ago.


While it may not be true that we are only using 10% of our "brains" it is very true that we PERCEIVE only a small percentage of overall reality. That's the point he was making.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 09:46 AM
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a reply to: Skyfloating

In the Apocalypse of John, or the Book of Revelation, there are two words used for torment, the verb Strong translated 'to torment' or 'to torture' which is 'Basanizo' (G928) and the noun coming from the same root translated 'torment' or 'torture' which is 'Basanismos' (G929). If we look at those words, the basis of both words are infact 'Basis' and 'Baino' (G939), translated 'base' and 'foot'. In John's vision of the Son of Man, "His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace" [ESV]. Now the word for 'refined' here 'Pepyromenes' (from 'Pyroo' - G4448) may seem unrelated to 'Basanizo', but in a certain respect they can be used interchangeably like synonyms in certain contexts. For 'Basanizo' and 'Basanismos' also refer to another Greek word, namely 'Basanos' (G931) which means 'Touch-stone' and refers to Basalt slate or 'Basanites' source which was used to check the quality of gold and other precious metals. By rubbing the metal against certain kinds of basalt slate it's mark would show a different signature at different qualities.

It is my understanding that the 'tormented in the fire' which is referred to in the Apocalypse is to be understood as being 'tested and refined like gold is tested in a furnace'. Or as God says in Zechariah 13:9: "And I will [...] refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested."

Also: Check out the word translated 'Brimstone' in KJV and trace it both in Greek and Hebrew. Like how in Hebrew 'Gopherite' is the mineral version of 'Gopher-wood' which Noah's ark was built from. Nobody knows what Gopher or Gopherite is, but bitumen and sulphur have been suggested up through the years. So Brimstone may refer to fossil fuels like Coal and Petroleum, the burning of which seem to change the climate on Earth and bring on more hellish weather. Just a thought....
edit on 8-6-2014 by Utnapisjtim because: Also:



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 10:39 AM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I learned something new with your post, so thanks for that.

Being burned for refinement is an interesting image. All superflous pieces the soul has accumulated, burnt off.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 10:46 AM
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Great OP! Very simply put. I agree with the OP in that it doesn't make sense. The idea of "God" is that he is good god or at least that's what I get from the religions of the world. If he wasn't then what would be the point? Fear and manipulation is where the thought of eternal damnation stem from in religion. Tell people they will burn forever and they will be scared enough to keep coming back. Simple tactic. S&F



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 10:58 AM
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a reply to: Skyfloating

it is very true that we PERCEIVE only a small percentage of overall reality.



Quite. I have no argument against that. I agree with it.
Our senses are unable to detect 90% of what is there.

Which allows one some space in which to imagine.
We all know that bizarre things DO happen. To trust a translated collection/anthology of ancient writings (and whomever packaged them) makes no sense to me.

That Holy Instruction Manual just has never (in this of my lifetimes) added up.

As far as what deadeyedick meant - I'm not sure.
edit on 6/8/2014 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: Skyfloating

(Apocalypse of John) 'The lake of fire that burns with sulphur' I interpret as 'the state of war'. Those who are sent to it carry marks of animals and letter/number codes representing their kings on arms and foreheads. When Norwegians are drafted we receive a uniform, we salute to our superiors by lifting the right hand to our foreheads, where we carry the monogram of our current king, typically a a letter and a number, there may even be a heraldic lion there and other heraldry, like carrying an silver axe, standing on one foot there like it is in the case of the police's emblem, also found in the foreheads. This fits the prophecies on the matter in the Apocalypse. I'm not saying the king of Norway is the Beast, but that the Beast is a king with regalia and heraldry, armies, a language a nation and a religious pyramid and so on with the power to send his soldiers into battle and decide whether they live or die.

Revelation or the Apocalypse of John is a textbook in becoming a king and going from being king to becoming a god and divine. Look for verses containing "He who conquers" or "He who overcometh" or "He who is victorious" and similar. If you ask the usual Christian about that guy and who he is, they will unanimously reply "the Christians". Truth is that he is "the King" not just any Christian, but the Christ himself.

However at some point this system with kings and priests (beasts) and police (satan) is found obsolete, or atleast some of these heraldic specimen, like the old serpent is put to prison for 1000 years and the lion-bear-leopard and the dragonsheep are tossed into this 'lake of fire' to be 'refined' for an eternity.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 12:23 PM
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Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Yup, sounds like earth to me.

You don't remember before you were born and you don't remember after you have passed,in between is eternity

O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.” The very tabernacle of God will be with humans then and heaven is any place where God is (Rev. 21:3). All pain, suffering, and tears will absent there (Rev. 21:4).

yup sounds like earth to me.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 12:37 PM
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a reply to: Skyfloating

Well I want nothing to do with God or Satan or Hell so is there a special place for me that I can be all by myself away from all you crazy religious and evil people?



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 01:11 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: whitewave

*sigh* Religious arguments are so tedious.
So are you admitting that you can't support your earlier claims that Jesus "suffered the penalty for our sins" and "paid that price"?

What I'm saying is Christ is the only one who measured up to Yahweh's standard. We never could.
Jesus demonstrated that at least hypothetically, we could, and "so condemned sin in the flesh".


Not sure how you managed to translate my feelings of tedium from arguing religious doctrine into an admission of inability to defend my points but...whatever. Christ didn't call me to be His lawyer, He called me to be a witness and a member of His body.
If you have any real interest in the subject, may I refer you to the scholarly scriptural work of S.L.L. Johnson, "Life Death Hereafter"? Peace.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 01:20 PM
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originally posted by: maddy21
Why would you ever suffer infinite amount of pain for a finite amount of bad things you did or infinite amount of good for a finite amount of good you did. Simply does not make sense ...
Besides , does the concept of time exists beyond this life . Is everything linear ? so how does one define "forever or eternal"


Good questions. Revelation states that "time shall be no more", which has always baffled me. I think it's easy to get distracted with the side issues. My stance has been to live in Christ as much as humanly possible, trusting that Christ is righteous, and leave the details up to Him. I trust that whatever He decides is my reward or punishment, it will be exactly what I deserve; no more, no less.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 01:23 PM
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a reply to: whitewave

Not sure how you managed to translate my feelings of tedium from arguing religious doctrine into an admission of inability to defend my points but...whatever. Christ didn't call me to be His lawyer, He called me to be a witness and a member of His body.
You were playing the role of a "lawyer" in your earlier post www.abovetopsecret.com... where you enumerated 6 theological points.
I was questioning your conclusions or claims being made in article 2.
I think that if someone is to present a list of supposedly infallible theological truths, that they should be prepared to defend them.
I have to conclude from your unwillingness to support your thesis, that it is the result of a complete inability, and were instead just itemizing things that you wished were true, for one reason or another.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

As you wish, brother. Believe what you will; doesn't affect me one way or the other. If I wanted to go to the trouble of expounding every point, backed with verses and simple logic, I'd have started my own thread. Was just giving a taste to those hungry enough to search it out for themselves, not force-feeding anyone.

The difference between punishment and discipline is that discipline is for the benefit of the one being disciplined; to teach them a lesson. When the lesson is learned, the disciplinary action stops. Punishment, on the other hand, is for the sick benefit of the deranged who feel some need to exhibit some power and control over others. The only "lesson" learned is that sick individuals should be avoided at all costs for one's personal safety. My God disciplines, not punishes.



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 01:45 PM
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originally posted by: john666

originally posted by: deadeyedick

a reply to: john666 No one is innocent. It is just a matter of remembering what you done wrong last time around but the point is too forget. Where is there a rule that says one must know what the punishment is for. However if one searches themselves then guilt can be found all around. What do you mean you people







If that what you say is true, than children who are sacrificed, or abused form the day they are born, are "guilty", for "something".

My intuition and my reason, tell me that this isn't true.

When I was referring to "you people", I was referring to those of you who think - because of your cowardice - that everything bad that happens, happens for a GOOD REASON.

Be that reason punishment, or something else.
Labeling a group of people to be something based on something not fully understood is very dangerous to knowledge. Yes at one glance it may seem cowardice but there is always that pesky matter of perspective. I do think it is important to see all angles but do not stop with just one. Think flesh and spirit



posted on Jun, 8 2014 @ 02:37 PM
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originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: john666

originally posted by: deadeyedick

a reply to: john666 No one is innocent. It is just a matter of remembering what you done wrong last time around but the point is too forget. Where is there a rule that says one must know what the punishment is for. However if one searches themselves then guilt can be found all around. What do you mean you people







If that what you say is true, than children who are sacrificed, or abused form the day they are born, are "guilty", for "something".

My intuition and my reason, tell me that this isn't true.

When I was referring to "you people", I was referring to those of you who think - because of your cowardice - that everything bad that happens, happens for a GOOD REASON.

Be that reason punishment, or something else.
Labeling a group of people to be something based on something not fully understood is very dangerous to knowledge. Yes at one glance it may seem cowardice but there is always that pesky matter of perspective. I do think it is important to see all angles but do not stop with just one. Think flesh and spirit


I'm thinking more like "coping mechanism".
edit on 8-6-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



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