Baker Forced to make gay wedding cakes, undergo sensitivity training, after losing lawsuit

a reply to: undo

Funny then that you missed those silly facts about how the Greeks conquered most of the known world, (Alexander the Great anyone?) thereby setting up a great deal of the infrastructure that the Romans would use later on?

Surely with your historical studies you know that for most of human history, girls were married and bearing children by age 11-13?

We have different attitudes toward age of consent today, for the better, I believe.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: undo

Funny then that you missed those silly facts about how the Greeks conquered most of the known world, (Alexander the Great anyone?) thereby setting up a great deal of the infrastructure that the Romans would use later on?

Surely with your historical studies you know that for most of human history, girls were married and bearing children by age 11-13?

We have different attitudes toward age of consent today, for the better, I believe.

i'm just proving that societal pressures can be just as much involved in homosexuality as genetic ones. i think it's mostly genetic, but cases like greece, where women were few, not invited to the philosophical meets, and mostly viewed as baby making machines who must produce more men for the glorious grecian society, is evidence of a different route to that behavior. it's not a simple this way or that way. it's both ways.

This is no different to a few decades ago when you had people saying they didn't want to serve black people at their restuarant or thought interracial marriage was against their beliefs.

These cowards and crooks are dying breed. It's difficult to rid the world of ignorance, but we're slowly getting there.

originally posted by: VelvetSplash
This is no different to a few decades ago when you had people saying they didn't want to serve black people at their restuarant or thought interracial marriage was against their beliefs.

These cowards and crooks are dying breed. It's difficult to rid the world of ignorance, but we're slowly getting there.

i don't think there's anything cowardly or crooked about not agreeing with homosexuality. it's a decision you make if you're hetero, and if you're hetero and religious, you may (or may not, depending on the religion) disagree with it for spiritual reasons as well. since a huge chunk of these people you're referring to are hetero, dying off......um, yeah.

originally posted by: undo

i'm just proving that societal pressures can be just as much involved in homosexuality as genetic ones. i think it's mostly genetic, but cases like greece, where women were few, not invited to the philosophical meets, and mostly viewed as baby making machines who must produce more men for the glorious grecian society, is evidence of a different route to that behavior. it's not a simple this way or that way. it's both ways.

No, with all due respect, you're not even close to proving "that societal pressures can be just as involved in homosexuality as genetic ones." You're merely making broad statements about "the Greeks" when really, your comments only possibly apply to a relatively brief period in Athenian culture. You're ignoring wide swaths of historical fact to come to a series of overly simple conclusions. Why do you think that women "were few" in any part of Greece at any time? Do you have some reference for your belief? A historical text, or anthropological study?

What about the women in Delphi, or Thessaly or Sparta that were land-owners?

Women in Sparta were WORSHIPPED as the mothers of warriors! The women administered the estates, and were some of the most wealthy members of society! The freedom that Spartan women enjoyed was unequalled in any culture of the ancient world!

Come on ... you're surely aware that there's more to Greek history than a few hundred years in Athens ... right?

Right?

How does this supposedly apply to the baker again?

a reply to: Gryphon66

yep i do

female infanticide

In the Greece of 200 B.C., for example, the murder of female infants was so common that among 6,000 families living in Delphi no more than 1 percent had two daughters. Among 79 families, nearly as many had one child as two. Among all there were only 28 daughters to 118 sons. ..

www.gendercide.org...

pederasty in greece

The social custom called paiderastia by the Greeks was both idealized and criticized in ancient literature and philosophy;[4] it has no formal existence in the Homeric epics, and seems to have developed in the late 7th century BC as an aspect of Greek homosocial culture,[5] which was characterized also by athletic and artistic nudity, delayed marriage for aristocrats, symposia, and the social seclusion of women.[6] The influence of pederasty was so pervasive that it has been called "the principal cultural model for free relationships between citizens."[7]

en.wikipedia.org...

The Soup Nazi would be in jail now (Seinfeld reference)
How does the government force all of the employees for reeducation classes? They can refuse. Will the judge make the owner fire the employees?

originally posted by: mugger
The Soup Nazi would be in jail now

(Seinfeld reference)
How does the government force all of the employees for reeducation classes? They can refuse. Will the judge make the owner fire the employees?

if they disobey a court order? jail time maybe?

a reply to: Metallicus

As long as we have piecemeal remedies for an unjust condition, this kind of thing is bound to occur. If the eventuality of gay acceptance- legal acceptance, is an eventual forgone conclusion, and it seems as though it is, then the nation's laws should reflect this new paradigm in it's entirety across the board. As things are right now, some states have equality at the forefront and just as many are zealously stifling any attempts to achieve equality. This in itself foments resentment and only serves to fan the flames of a fire that should burned out long ago.

As a country, we will either fully accept that all citizens are equal under the law or we can keep kicking the can from state to state, patching this hole and that hole and not accomplish the grand deal. It is going to take many, many more years before gay people are accepted by still too many people. Some will never accept gay people no matter what law is passed or whatever societal pressures are put on them to do so. It simply isn't in the nature of some people and never will be. Those people will have to die off and children will have eventually grow up in a home that doesn't teach hate as a general requirement in life. People aren't born to hate, to discriminate. They are taught this, primarily in the home and by the segment of society they are raised around. This 'classroom' will not go away anytime soon, unfortunately. It's going to be long, hard-fought and constant confrontational battle before true equality is achieved. Frankly, I don't expect to acknowledge a final victory celebration in my lifetime. Far too many people will hold on to the business of minding someone else's business due to their inherent shortcomings.

a reply to: be4ne1

Far too many people will hold on to the business of minding someone else's business due to their inherent shortcomings.

i agree that gay people should be afforded all the same rights as heteros. the issue i have is with forcing people to do so. that in itself, is minding someone else's business. it's shifted to favoring what the homosexual pop wants over the hetero pop because of things like agenda 21 lol

a reply to: undo

Your first link goes to a page about infanticide in modern China and India, your material is a side quote by Dr. RJ Rummel and, interestingly, you neglected to quote the first line of the piece:

"In many cultures, government permitted, if not encouraged, the killing of handicapped or female infants or otherwise unwanted children."

The subject of the statement is that various cultures throughout history have practiced infanticide, not that it was a unique quality of the entirety of all Greek culture over 1500 years duration.

Your second link proves that "pederasty" was an aspect of life in ancient Greece (which almost everyone who has studied any history knows), but your simplistic comparison of pederasty to modern attitudes toward homosexuality is where your comparison and statements fail, honestly.

From your same Wikipedia article:

"These connections were also an advantage for a youth and his family, as the relationship with an influential older man resulted in an expanded social network. Thus, some considered it desirable to have had many admirers or mentors, if not necessarily lovers per se, in one’s younger years. Typically, after their sexual relationship had ended and the young man had married[/b], the older man and his protégé would remain on close terms throughout their life."

It was a part of their culture. It was not the end or the only part of their culture. There were (OBVIOUSLY) families, men got married and went on to have children.

Another important quote from your article you might reference:

It is the historian's job to draw attention to the personal, social, political and indeed moral issues behind the literary and artistic representations of the Greek world. The historian's job is to present pederasty and all, to make sure that … we come face to face with the way the glory that was Greece was part of a world in which many of our own core values find themselves challenged rather than reinforced.[10]

The ancient Greeks were not all uniform and did not all act in the same way. The tribes became city-states, different regions had different practices and beliefs.

You cite one generic article and one specific reference and you think you've proven your points. It would take pages and pages of content to demonstrate that your comments are at best innocent misunderstandings.

And not to mention, off-topic.

a reply to: undo

SO if an employee said nothing, wasn't even working that day, Our Government can force them to take a class? This whole premise by the court seems ridiculous and very scary. I can't see anyway legally how. More scary the court says I have to provide any service to anyone. You have the right to refuse service and religious beliefs. Just go give your business to another baker that wants your money..Pretty simple.
Conform or be forced out of business. Maybe we can sue Chick-Fa_la and make them open up on Sundays too.

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: undo

Funny then that you missed those silly facts about how the Greeks conquered most of the known world, (Alexander the Great anyone?) thereby setting up a great deal of the infrastructure that the Romans would use later on?

Surely with your historical studies you know that for most of human history, girls were married and bearing children by age 11-13?

We have different attitudes toward age of consent today, for the better, I believe.

i'm just proving that societal pressures can be just as much involved in homosexuality as genetic ones. i think it's mostly genetic, but cases like greece, where women were few, not invited to the philosophical meets, and mostly viewed as baby making machines who must produce more men for the glorious grecian society, is evidence of a different route to that behavior. it's not a simple this way or that way. it's both ways.

'Undo' you are absolutely correct in your observation that many factors are at work with "the act" of homosexuality, as it applies to performing homosexual experiences. I have personally seen many, many instances of straight men fully engulfed in a homosexual lifestyle. How they found themselves in that condition are as abstract and varied as any peculiar paradigm. However that isn't the case with a 'true and natural' gay person. There is simply too much evidence to bolster the fact that homosexuals are indeed born that way. Curiosity, sex-drive or a skewed sexual interpretation may well apply to those who have experimented to varying degrees, but to the majority within the gay society, it's no more a choice than one's skin color.

To those who have claimed to be "repaired or fixed" through intervention, voluntarily or otherwise, I can only offer silent sympathy and unfortunate pity for their confused or orchestrated 'new' self. They must truly be miserable and full of guilt for denying themselves the truth of who and what they naturally are.

originally posted by: mugger
The Soup Nazi would be in jail now

(Seinfeld reference)
How does the government force all of the employees for reeducation classes? They can refuse. Will the judge make the owner fire the employees?

The soup Nazi treated everyone the same.

Didn't matter their ethnicity or sexual orientation.

However, if enough people complained to the city, I expect something would be done.

There's really no point in my continuance in this discussion. I've made my points and shared my opinions, and I'm obviously not going to change anyone's mind that's already so firmly made up.

I would only suggest that we stop talking about "gay people" and "straight people" and start talking about people.

People should be able to go into a bakery and buy a cake. It doesn't matter if they're gay or straight.

Period.

a reply to: Gryphon66

what the article does reflect though is that homosexuality was so encouraged in their culture that women were socially secluded, and female children were killed at birth because males were considered the pentultimate gender bar none. (well, there's only 2 to pick from). 28 females out of 6000 families. you must be joking if you think that wasn't horrible.

a reply to: be4ne1

oh well you might have a point. so do you think the greeks were mostly a mix of heteros behaving gay because of social pressure and actual gays? just curious.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: be4ne1

oh well you might have a point. so do you think the greeks were mostly a mix of heteros behaving gay because of social pressure and actual gays? just curious.

I'd say if you don't have a social or cultural taboo against something, people will behave as they will.

Men are sexual creatures. They're going to have sex, one way or another.

I don't think you can apply ancient behaviors to this situation.

EDIT: Gays are people. They have families and lifestyles like all people. I got off track. Their sexual orientation is not who they are, no more then a hetero is defined as a person by his sexual orientation.

Apologies for falling into that trap.

Annee

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: be4ne1

Far too many people will hold on to the business of minding someone else's business due to their inherent shortcomings.

'undo' said .....
"i agree that gay people should be afforded all the same rights as heteros. the issue i have is with forcing people to do so. that in itself, is minding someone else's business. it's shifted to favoring what the homosexual pop wants over the hetero pop because of things like agenda 21 lol ."

(My reply.....) Again, I agree with you. I am extremely uncomfortable with situations such as with this baker. My fabric tells me no one should be forced to serve or prepare food for someone if they don't want to- for whatever reason. There is quite simply no way to justify the courts making this a legal matter, and then having no recourse but to decide one way or another. In the end, there are no real winners, both sides stand to lose disproportionately. But in a country that strives to achieve equality for all, based on interpreted constitutional guarantees, what choice do the courts have?

In a more congenially-oriented world, there would be no discernible differences of human sexuality. But since the beginning of mankind, or shortly thereafter (who really knows?) there have been these differences in human sexuality. They can't just be ignored. And in a just society, they can't be unfairly pigeonholed or blatantly separated from one another, especially when no 'true' harm is brought upon the other, by the others.

So this is where the thin line of justice is forced to intervene. Our constitutional guarantees don't always simply unfold favorably, without the force of legal intervention. The end of slavery and integration is a crystal clear example of when the legal apparatus has no choice but to intervene, or those horrible injustices would still be in full force today. Of that I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever. The isolation of the baker's dilemma, made monument by his unwavering intention made this action necessary. Extremely ugly and unpleasant for all, but necessary- to right a wrong. There just wasn't any other way around it in a fair and sensible way. Had it not been this particular instance, it would have been another. Indeed, I predict many more of these growing pains to occur. I hate it, I hate witnessing the whole thing. But I have accepted it probably has to happen, like it or not.

edit on 6/5/2014 by be4ne1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6/5/2014 by be4ne1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 6/5/2014 by be4ne1 because: trying to separate the quote from my reply, not successfully I might add.

edit on 6/5/2014 by be4ne1 because: (no reason given)

a reply to: Gryphon66


Sorry you couldn't re-educate us.