The ACLU comes to my little county

originally posted by: drivers1492
a reply to: Woodcarver

I do understand your position and let me answer your question plainly. The punishment is (depending on your personal interpretation) damnation or death(spiritual death).

The problems this particular school is having isn't based on religion being banned from school, btw it isn't, but the school is a step outside it's legal limits by supporting it. If it were actually banned then a student would not be allowed to pray on school grounds publicly. If you did take the time to read the letter from the aclu you would find that your assertion of "banned" isn't correct. So while I personally don't have issue with the plaque the law does. So your left with a majority of the counties population feeling that the law is wrong in that respect. Whether or not you personally feel it is nonsense they do not and should in my opinion stand up for what they feel is right.

Morality needs no threat to be taught I agree, but one cannot deny the contributions of various religions throughout history. Good and bad contributions I doubt anyone actually argues that point but what seems to be the trend is to only look at the negative aspect of faiths. That is sad to me.

Atheist/agnostic whatever my label is I will stand with the kids of the school in whatever they feel is right. If they choose to sing and pray I will stand with them.

Well im glad you don't deny that even what people call peaceful religions cause harm. But this is not what is taught in these instances. It's actually very one sided. The omissions are grand and what they do claim to be true is either been shown to be false or simply are unprovable. You will never go to church and hear the pastor or priest teaching you in detail the horrible practices of that churches religion. Can you be honest and list some of the negative ideas, actions, and situations that arise from reading the plain words written in any abrahamic texts and sanctioned by their respective churches in the past and the present? Or maybe even how it teaches segregation, slavery, punishment, torture, discrimination, caste system, murder of gays and any non believers, other silly rules that somehow applied to society then, but not to us now? Would you also stand up for them to be able to post any of these?

1. Ex. 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

2. Lev. 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.
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3. Ex. 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
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4. Ex. 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
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5. Ex. 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
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6. Ex. 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
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7. Lev. 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.

8. Lev. 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
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9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be ******.
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10. Mal. 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

If not, why not? It's the ten commandments, isn't it? It's def written in the bible.


We teach slavery and segregation as things that are a part of our history but we no longer teach it as a social norm. While i can't find any good that came from it, you will not be hard pressed to find those who still promote such nonsense because it is written in red ink in the bible. I see no difference in the two platforms. Religion is social segregation and propaganda for one side against the other. It is plainly written in the bible that those who do not conform should be put to death. In america we don't see that so much, but there is a more subtle tool of alienation, segregation, passing over for consideration, discrimination, and even dismissal of scientific discovery that is promulgated by the idea that "my skydaddy is the real skydaddy and my interpretation of the bible is the right one and if you don't let me believe whatever i want and discriminate whoever i want then you are putting my soul in peril".

Again not a heritage i am willing to stand behind.

Im sure even Hitler, stalin, and pol pot, did a few good deeds but i don't see any of you standing up for those who would promote those good things over the bad. No, they are remembered for the atrocities. Some people just can't forget the harm caused. Funny that.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Your speaking of christians that don't follow old testament law. There is nothing in the new testament that tells them to do harm to others or kill the unbeliever your being dishonest in your argument. While it's common for them to pull something to support their dislike of a lifestyle choice from the old testament your going to find it hard to put forward a local church preaching they way your portraying here. I'm not implying that they don't exist but none that I am aware of in my area and my parents were born and raised here. You see this whole conversation isn't about a blanket coverage of the nation in some respects, it simply about the people here. Situations, people and circumstances are different everywhere and one must evaluate each accordingly. Religion has had some serious stains in its history and it does hamper some in their development if exposed to the more extreme side of adherence but people's ideas and acceptance of it are changing. It's slow getting away from but I see it all the time. More and more young people realizing it's their personal faith that is all they need to concern themselves with because the church is teaching them that it's ok for people to be different and worship different. As far as not liking someone for whatever reason.....that's your right as a human being.

The references at the bottom about hitler and the others, I've not honestly had much interaction with anyone that thought highly of them so I would be dishonest to give an opinion.

Will I go to church and tell them of the atrocities? No, it's not my place to infringe on someone's house of worship. It would be disrespectful of me to do so.


***note**
I saw your edit after I replied so let me add this small bit about the commandments listed. If you took the time to look all of that up and are aware of the overall teachings of the christian church you know that they do not promote nor endorse what you listed. Trying to make an argument based on information that isn't relevant(in this situation isn't followed by the church) is doing nothing but either showing ignorance of modern church theology in the United States or trying to incite someone for a reaction. Both are not productive.

originally posted by: drivers1492
a reply to: Woodcarver

Your speaking of christians that don't follow old testament law. There is nothing in the new testament that tells them to do harm to others or kill the unbeliever your being dishonest in your argument. While it's common for them to pull something to support their dislike of a lifestyle choice from the old testament your going to find it hard to put forward a local church preaching they way your portraying here. I'm not implying that they don't exist but none that I am aware of in my area and my parents were born and raised here. You see this whole conversation isn't about a blanket coverage of the nation in some respects, it simply about the people here. Situations, people and circumstances are different everywhere and one must evaluate each accordingly. Religion has had some serious stains in its history and it does hamper some in their development if exposed to the more extreme side of adherence but people's ideas and acceptance of it are changing. It's slow getting away from but I see it all the time. More and more young people realizing it's their personal faith that is all they need to concern themselves with because the church is teaching them that it's ok for people to be different and worship different. As far as not liking someone for whatever reason.....that's your right as a human being.

The references at the bottom about hitler and the others, I've not honestly had much interaction with anyone that thought highly of them so I would be dishonest to give an opinion.

Will I go to church and tell them of the atrocities? No, it's not my place to infringe on someone's house of worship. It would be disrespectful of me to do so.

The ten commandments are from the old testament. Jesus plainly said he is not here to get rid of the old laws. His views on slavery were pretty sickening. And to top it off all of his claims are pretty rediculous. If someone steals your clothes do you run after them to give them the rest of your stuff? Do you think it's a good idea not to defend yourself if someone is attacking you? Is it a good idea to give up your personal wealth, leave your family behind and follow a crazy person? Because this is what jesus was teaching.

Jesus, if he was even real, would have been a product of the times. Just as the collected stories that were chosen by the politicians of the time to form the bible. They don't make sense because those people didn't know what we know about physics today. They had no germ theory, no meteorology, no theory of electrons, no psychiatry, very few were literate, superstition was the normal explanation for everything. Who cares if they got some things right. People all over the world, know that it is not condusive to peaceful society to allow murder, theft, rape, abuse. Unless of course, their religion allows for it.

If you post and stand behind the ten commandments, then you are supporting the laws of the old testament.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I'm aware of the location of the both sets of commandments. I am also aware of the teachings of jesus and his words on the ot law. I suppose I'm at a point I actually have to ask this. Do you actually know what and how churches on the whole teach these things? Do you know outside of extremes what is taught? Your making literal assertions of things that no church I have encountered believes. I mean no disrespect by asking the above but everything your throwing out is not common adherence of christians and the only time I encounter it is when someone simply wants to toss out things they have read opinions of by other atheists and youtube. The theology and doctrine taught by the church aren't what your claiming. Finally if you weren't aware all the commandments are repeated in the new testament as well. Just not with the levitical law of death attached. And the christian doctrine doesn't condone murder, theft, rape and abuse. The only stand you have in that argument is slavery, which you pointed out the bible stories are a product of their time in which slavery was a part of life. I'm not sure what physics has to do with the conversation so I will leave that section alone.

I'm aware of the location of the both sets of commandments.

And yet you say they are not taught. I go to church pretty regularly. It is known that i am an atheist. I DO NOT speak my mind to any of the congregation because i already am discriminated against. Perhaps you have never felt this as you seem to want to appease them and promote the cause by standing up for the bible and apologizing for the attrocities and lies. Even most of the more rationale folks here will dredge up the O.T. When it suits them. I am aware that some people prefer to reinterpret most of what is written but the fact remains that the words appear in the book that is considered the words of god. New test, old test. I see no difference. What is taught is an amalgam of hand picked quotes from inside the bible to any of the church sponsored books by priests popes and apologists. It is not a book that should be used to educate the young just like the qu'ran, the talmud, the vedas, or any other book that ishould be considered a book of fiction but is presented as "the word of god" You can't have one without the other. They are inseperable.

I am also aware of the teachings of jesus and his words on the ot law.

And yet you apologise and say "nobody really teaches it as so". Of course they do. I have never seen a christian church that doesn't have the ten commandments displayed somewhere. The old testament is held in just as high regard as the new around here. Genesis and exodus are commonly quoted on this site and in churches all over the world. As a matter of fact most of these stories are introduced to the youngest kids in bible school. And in my church they are lead off by themselves with no real parental supervision.

I suppose I'm at a point I actually have to ask this. Do you actually know what and how churches on the whole teach these things? Do you know outside of extremes what is taught? Your making literal assertions of things that no church I have encountered believes. I mean no disrespect by asking the above but everything your throwing out is not common adherence of christians and the only time I encounter it is when someone simply wants to toss out things they have read opinions of by other atheists and youtube.

i am very knowledgable about the christian bible and many other religious texts. The bible itself is full of extremes and it is dishonest of you to say that me simply reading from the book is somehow being dishonest and pointing out the extremes. How can i be misrepresenting the book by simply reading plainly from it. it is the only book to refer to when you want to study what the christian beliefs are. They believe that the bible is the word of god right? If they don't believe that then where do they get their beliefs from? From picking and choosing which passages feel right to them? Actually yes!!

The theology and doctrine taught by the church aren't what your claiming.

do you mean to say that the bible, old and new testament are not the books that the christian church was founded on? Where, if not the bible, do these people get their information from?

And the christian doctrine doesn't condone murder, theft, rape and abuse.

Although death is still the punishment for breaking any of the commandments. Old and new testament. And islam still practices this to this day.

The only stand you have in that argument is slavery, which you pointed out the bible stories are a product of their time in which slavery was a part of life.

Yes, a product of man. Clearly not the product of a benevelant omnipotent god in the flesh. Just a regular thought that you shouldn't kill your slaves. Instead of taking the opportunity to say once and for all slavery is wrong. By ommission he allowed slavery to be allowed by the church for thousands of years.

I'm not sure what physics has to do with the conversation so I will leave that section alone.

Do you not understand how even a basic knowledge of physics, or germ theory, or psychiatry could affect this conversation? Do you believe sickness is cured by faith alone? Do you think water can be turned into wine without fermentation? Do you believe people can walk on water, disappear into mist, converse with snakes, bushes, donkeys, raise from the dead by the thousands, do you still think physics isn't relevant to this convo?

a reply to: Woodcarver

Ok dude your beginning to become irritating in your blatant bs. You said prayer is banned, its not nor has it ever been that I know of. You've claimed that the 10 commandments are a death threat and following them show a person supports ot law. I pointed out they all exist in the new testament without said threats. You seem to think because I supports someone to believe as they wish I am making apologies. I have made no apologies for anyone. Where you pulled that out I haven't a clue. Statements like the following

do you mean to say that the bible, old and new testament are not the books that the christian church was founded on? Where, if not the bible, do these people get their information from?

Was not what I meant nor was what I said. If you can't follow what I'm saying then simply ask for clarification. I have been very polite throughout this exchange while watching you become progressively more and more rude by inserting idiotic statements not relevant to the conversation.

It boils down to this. The people here are pissed, and whether you feel like the church is a bad thing or not it bothers me to see my community upset. I can give a rats ass if they like me or not I support my community. I also support their freedoms even if I don't agree. Me sitting here arguing theology with someone who clearly wants to vent is counter productive. Here is my example.....

Do you not understand how even a basic knowledge of physics, or germ theory, or psychiatry could affect this conversation? Do you believe sickness is cured by faith alone? Do you think water can be turned into wine without fermentation? Do you believe people can walk on water, disappear into mist, converse with snakes, bushes, donkeys, raise from the dead by the thousands, do you still think physics isn't relevant to this convo?

That was the dumbest thing I think I have read. But here let me answer it just to be polite. No its not relevant. The reason it's not relevant is because 1. I don't believe in bible stories 2. It has nothing to do with the ACLU stepping into the school system here. The bs in the above quote is nothing but bait lines for a upset individual to get to vent online a bit more. Please learn to read and comprehend what a person says instead of kicking out your religion sucks and here's why dialogue, especially in a thread that isn't primarily written to discuss theology. This might help
Reading comprehension courses

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Well im glad you don't deny that even what people call peaceful religions cause harm. But this is not what is taught in these instances. It's actually very one sided. The omissions are grand and what they do claim to be true is either been shown to be false or simply are unprovable. You will never go to church and hear the pastor or priest teaching you in detail the horrible practices of that churches religion. Can you be honest and list some of the negative ideas, actions, and situations that arise from reading the plain words written in any abrahamic texts and sanctioned by their respective churches in the past and the present? Or maybe even how it teaches segregation, slavery, punishment, torture, discrimination, caste system, murder of gays and any non believers, other silly rules that somehow applied to society then, but not to us now? Would you also stand up for them to be able to post any of these?

Caste system?
(just curious)