Neil deGrasse Tyson shuts down climate change deniers

a reply to: Phage

Well you were ignoring me so I got sad. Figured I would poke the beast a bit.

a reply to: amazing

We have made incredible advances over the past few decades when it comes to technology, and our understanding of the universe around us.

While I am not directly comparing the two, I wanted to point something out. Many extremely smart philosophers, and civilizations throughout time thought that the world was flat. This idea basically went on for 2000 years, and was argued up until as recently as the 17th century.

The reason I bring this up is that sometimes even the brightest minds don't have all the tools, and information needed to come up with the correct theory.

I believe in climate change and global warming. I also believe in AGW to a degree, but I have a problem with the obvious agenda behind the IPCC, and known corruption going on there. The IPCC has taken AGW and blown it way out of proportion using it for political purposes.

I am all for cleaning up the environment. I would love to see us lead the way on new and innovative green energy. I can't wait until we never have to use oil again. The problem is that in our current society we NEED it to live. We NEED it to be competitive. We NEEDED it to become the advanced and powerful country we currently are. Without fossil fuels where would we be?

Nobody can predict the future. Even if the IPCC climate models are accurate so what? The rest of the world is exponentially increasing their fossil fuel use. If we cut our CO2 emissions by 30%, but the rest of the world increases their use by 130%, who cares? I get it, we should lead the way and try no matter the outcome, but we also need to ensure our countries stability and competitiveness on the global stage.

originally posted by: Euphem
a reply to: amazing

We have made incredible advances over the past few decades when it comes to technology, and our understanding of the universe around us.

While I am not directly comparing the two, I wanted to point something out. Many extremely smart philosophers, and civilizations throughout time thought that the world was flat. This idea basically went on for 2000 years, and was argued up until as recently as the 17th century.

The reason I bring this up is that sometimes even the brightest minds don't have all the tools, and information needed to come up with the correct theory.

While many believed the Earth was flat until relative recently, the round Earth theory has been around for most of our civilization. We even calculated the diameter of Earth quite accurately way before Christ was born.

The difference is the belief that those in power hold, or more realistically the belief systems they teach and preach to the masses.

Today we have an assault of junk pseudo science that is out there because the most harmful practices we do are often very profitable and here in the US were are raised to believe in the all mighty dollar.

a reply to: jrod

That wasn't the best example, but I was trying to say that many smart people for a long time were unable to draw the correct conclusion due to a lack of available technology and information. I will use a more recent example instead.

Einstein's static universe theory is just one of hundreds that were thought correct, and recently proven false.

Everyday it seems that someone is coming up with a new theory on something that was considered 100% true by the scientific community.

Even a theory as widely accepted as the Big Bang Theory becomes questioned more and more as time goes on.

So yes my first example wasn't the right one to use, but what about the rest of my post?

originally posted by: SonoftheSun
a reply to: rickymouse

We have totally messed up, we just need to reevaluate things.

Absolutely agree with you. I think we suffer from a spoiled rotten brats syndrome of some kind. We overuse everything, we overconsume everything, we forgot to use certain things with moderation.

One day ahead at some point, there will be a price to pay. Maybe not for us, maybe not for our kids, but their kids? They might pay for our mistakes very dearly.

We? The first world is surely spoiled, rotten and greedy. I would not say the same for the majority of the rest of the planet.

Personally I don't believe we as humans have nearly enough years of data to prove anything about global warming (since this thread seemed to be discussing global warming as opposed to climate change). The earth has been proven to follow cycles and there has been multiple ice ages, etc. I think the weather changes are more of a result of the earths natural cycles than as a result of human actions. I definitely don't think the few years of data we have since people started "caring" proves anything.

originally posted by: Kuebel33
Personally I don't believe we as humans have nearly enough years of data to prove anything about global warming (since this thread seemed to be discussing global warming as opposed to climate change). The earth has been proven to follow cycles and there has been multiple ice ages, etc. I think the weather changes are more of a result of the earths natural cycles than as a result of human actions. I definitely don't think the few years of data we have since people started "caring" proves anything.

For sure the Earth has gone through those ancient cycles fine without humans involved. But we are now involved and have #ed with nature long enough in a very short amount of time ever since industrialization and coal plants everywhere.

I'm all for being good stewards of the earth so to speak, but I'm not convinced that climate change is our fault. Yes it's happening, but did we cause the ice age(s)? What about other warm periods in history? Not really buying it. The earth goes in cycles and will continue to do so regardless of what we do. But that's no excuse to deliberately trash the planet and see how far we can push our luck. I'm not arguing the facts that have been presented about CO2 emissions, I'm just arguing that those emissions alone are directly causing the warming trend like everyone seems to think. Accelerating it, maybe maybe not.

Now I'm not of the same opinion as my cousin who says that since God is in control of everything, nothing we do to the earth can hurt it until it's "his" plan to destroy it. I think that's reckless at best and downright stupid at worst for a variety of reasons, without getting into the underlying religious beliefs. I do think this whole climate change thing has been blown out of proportion for an agenda though.

originally posted by: eriktheawful
Still trying to find some actual, living, breathing, "Climate Change Deniers".

So far all I have found are:

People who believe that Climate Change is the fault of humans.

And

People who don't believe that Climate Change is the fault of humans.

Both however do believe that the climate does indeed change.

Could someone direct me to some of these actual Climate Change Deniers? I want to get their pictures, talk to them. Find out why they don't think that the Earth's climate changes.

I'd ask here on ATS, but so far I've yet to see anyone say they don't think the climate of Earth changes. Just those that disagree what the cause of those changes are.

Little help here?

For starters, it sounds like your having a problem understanding the full scope of what is meant by the term "climate change deniers." It's definitely not limited just to those who insist that the earth's climate is not changing at all. As ironic as it may seem, it would appear that you're are in "denial" of the implied meaning of the term.

Secondly, most people (even those who support climate change legislation to reduce greenhouse gases) would not agree with the statement that "climate change is the fault of humans." On the other hand, if you ask them if they believe that humans are contributing to and compounding the problem, you'd probably get a completely different answer. You know what they say about polls, it's all about how you phrase the question.

I think that most everyone knows that the earth's climate does indeed change and that many of the factors causing that change are beyond the control of humans. Things like solar cycles and/or volcanic eruptions.

On the other hand, when analyzing the earth's history of climate change, (via ice core samples from the polar regions) it becomes abundantly clear to most prudent people that since the dawn of the industrial age, the effects of greenhouse gas emissions by humans are indeed compounding the problem. In other words, it's clear that humans have introduced a whole new variable into what causes the otherwise normal earth climate change cycles.

IMO, the term "Climate Change Deniers" is meant to include a wide range of people who believe things like humans have had no affect on climate, CO2 is good for us and that absolutely nothing should be done to limit greenhouse gas emissions.

Truth be told, I believe this has more to do with the right-wing strategy of opposing absolutely everything that Obama supports. Otherwise, how do you explain this?



If anything, it would appear that the rising temperatures may already be affecting the brains of right-wingers to the point that they can't even remember what it is that they believe and/or support.

It is obvious the Earth is changing, it is becoming less habitable as a direct result of human activity. Call it climate change, call it Anthropological change, call it what you want.

It does not change the fact that we as a species are destroying planet Earth.

I'll say it again, by denying that we are in the midst of Man Made Global Warming, you are essentially disagreeing with almost every climatologist and most other scientists in the world. It's like saying you don't believe in the theory of gravity or evolution. Many of you are also saying things like "follow the money" and "It's doom porn" and so on. By saying this you're also saying that all of those scientists, every scientific organization and the hundreds of thousands of support personnel are all in on the biggest conspiracy ever. I'm not buying that. I've got to go with science on this one.

a reply to: Flatfish

So why use that name?

Why not Anthropogenic Climate Change Deniers?

Actually, I know full well why people use "Climate Change Deniers".

It's simple really: try to demean those who might be skeptical of humans role in Climate Change.

That is all it really is.

The term "Denier" has been used many times in our history to simply try and give a bad name to those who may question something.

UFOs are a great example of that right here on ATS. Those who are skeptical about WHAT UFOs are (not that UFOs do not exist), are quickly labeled "UFO Deniers".

Which is completely untrue and inaccurate. It is nothing more than name calling.

Childish really, when you think about it.

I fully believe (like many, many members here on ATS) that Climate Change is a very real thing. There is very good proof of it happening through out Earth's history, and it will continue to change right up until the sun expands enough to boil away the oceans, strip away the atmosphere, and then finally gobble the Earth up.
However, I question just how much influence humans have had. I agree with some reports, question other reports, and disagree with still other reports.

But because I do that: I'm called names. Simply because I won't "toe the line".

Can humans change the Earth's climate? Oh sure. No problem. Simply light off every single nuclear weapon on the face of the planet in the same day and watch happens.

Go out and find a large enough asteroid and push it just right so that it impacts the Earth. Yes indeed that climate will change.

We certainly can change it....and quite quickly in those ways.

Are we doing it through pollution and use of fossil fuels? I'm pretty sure we are not doing the Earth any favors by doing that. But by how much and how quickly? That is what I still question, as it never seems to be quite clear and dry as other things.

But because I question that, I warrant name calling and told I do not care about the Earth?

Again: childish.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Well said. I agree with you 100%.

a reply to: amazing

I am confused as to why this is so hard to understand for some people. Nobody is denying that climate is changing. Most people don't even deny AGW exists. For the most part we disagree with the AMOUNT man is contributing to this change.

There is nothing wrong with that. Even if 97% of climate scientists agree with AGW(which is a misleading statistic anyway) that doesn't mean they all agree with the IPCC models. Can you understand that? Very simple.

originally posted by: Euphem
a reply to: amazing

I am confused as to why this is so hard to understand for some people. Nobody is denying that climate is changing. Most people don't even deny AGW exists. For the most part we disagree with the AMOUNT man is contributing to this change.

There is nothing wrong with that. Even if 97% of climate scientists agree with AGW(which is a misleading statistic anyway) that doesn't mean they all agree with the IPCC models. Can you understand that? Very simple.

You're the exception and not the rule though. You know that. Read through all of these threads and you'll see a huge proportion of people here on ATS that thing man made global warming is a scam. They don't believe any of it. They think it's all a big conspiracy to tax us. Not saying there isn't a conspiracy to tax us, but that's a separate issue.

The problem is also the semantics and words we use. Yes we know the climate is changing and has been for billions of years, unless your a Christian, then it's "The Climate has been changing for 10,000 years." That's why it's man made global warming. And there is a huge amount of research and data by thousands of scientist and scientific organizations, telling us that we are causing it and causing a huge amount of it. The IPCC is just the tip of the iceberg Take away the IPCC, Al Gore, Cook, Man and all the rest and you're still left with all kinds of models and research and data and articles and papers and graphs and predictions pertaining to Man Made Global Warming.

The entire issue boils down to: Do you believe the majority of Science or not? If not, then there is no issue, if so then you realize that we're in a dire predicament and need to act fast and hard on this issue. The second issue is that, I have no problem with what you believe, but when an elected official or leader believes there is no issue, then it effects me and my family. And I can't stand for that. I won't let anyone hurt my family.

a reply to: Euphem

Use google Earth and look at the deforestation man has caused. Look at the giant mines we have created. Look at all the lakes that have dried up as a result of human activity. To think humans are not causing major problems to this planet is asinine.

a reply to: amazing

I wish I could give you an applause for that well written post !

Only one thing:

we're in a dire predicament and need to act fast and hard on this issue.

I doubt we can reverse the process at this point. Slow it down, perhaps. I've read quite a bit on the topic and I could always be wrong anyway but from what I've read, the point of no return has been crossed a while ago. I find it odd that some people call it doom and gloom or some sort of conspiracy for various agendas while some other people take it very seriously, since the reports are from the scientific community, the very community we stand on and are avid to link to, while debating just about any other subject.

a reply to: SonoftheSun

Thanks for that. I disagree with the what we can do though. There are some reports stating that we haven't crossed that line yet. There are also other things to consider like new sea walls, real estate laws in coastal areas, water conservation and desalinization plants and military contingencies for localized wars due to refugees, drought and submerged cities.

a reply to: amazing

Ahhhh! But you see: it's NOT a separate issue.

As long as any government wants to use it (AGW, Human caused Climate Chage) to push an agenda, that is more about taxes and money.......and less about finding alternate means......then you will not get everyone to agree to it.

Ask yourself: do you trust your government on this, and that they have all the answers?

If you even hesitate to say "Yes.", then there is an issue.

No one needs or wants extra taxes. No one wants to pay more for their energy than they already have to pay for. Our (the entire world) infrastructure is such that we have to use that energy........or fall to chaos.

What we need is alternate forms that can be transitioned to quickly, cheaply and easily.

I would quickly go out and buy a hybrid (or alternate fuel) car......if there was no waiting list, and they didn't cost an arm and a leg. But there is a list, and they do cost an arm and a leg.

I would certainly convert my home to use more solar energy if possible.......IF it did not cost the amount of money that it does now (which would require me to secure a pretty good sized bank loan).

I already recycle. Living here in the country I practice land and water conservation.

So I'm doing what I can, and that's simply because I love where I live (and where the climate and weather hasn't changed in the 25 years I've lived here so far, but I still want it to remain beautiful as it is).

But, if it is true (human made climate change), one country is not going to stop it. A handful of countries are not going to stop it.

Your same scientists that you quote, some have said: It's too late to stop it.

I debated with another member on here about this. Basically I said: So why come here to spread the doom and gloom? Why not instead work to find solutions?

Even IF human made climate change is not as drastic as it's made out to be, I'm sure you and others will agree: going green and finding alternate means of providing energy is a GOOD THING, no mater WHAT you believe....

Yes?

But that's all I ever see on here at ATS:

Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!

Basically wheels spinning, and no headway being made.

Spreading a message is great! Even if that message is nothing but doom and gloom.

But after a while, there should be other things included in that message:

Solutions.

And that is what I'm seeing a very big lack of. Answers and solutions.

Now to be fair: I doubt that any of us on here are going to convince power companies to stop using coal, or oil companies to stop selling gas, or car companies to start making much cheaper (and a lot more of), hybrid/alternate fuel cars.
Nor do I think that any of us here are going to convince governments to push those companies into finding alternate and greener energy sources.

I can tell you (in my humble opinion) what would be good though:

Stop spreading the doom and gloom (you're not going to get people to stop using their cars and trucks, or using electricity) only, and instead spread a message that simply includes solutions and answers, NOT because "Global Warming: WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!", but instead: "Alternate ideas and solutions, to help save and make this a better world to live in."

I know I certainly respond better to positive messages, than negative ones.

And I most certainly respond better when I'm not being called names.

One last thing to think of: how much energy was used to argue about "Climate Change Deniers"?

Seriously. Because even if you are using a completely green power source for your device.........that device (computer, iPad, Smart Phone) was manufactured.....with parts.....from factors that dump how much pollution in the air?

It's a double edged sword, I know.

Peace.

a reply to: jrod

When have I ever said that man doesn't play a role in all of this? My whole argument is against the biased and corrupted IPCC who have been manipulating numbers, specifically leaving out parts of graphs that don't support their agenda, silencing UN scientists that go against what they say, and using AGW for their own goals.

I have been volunteering since I was 13 in many different cleanup projects. I foster as many dogs as I can. I try as best I can to conserve water, electricity, and recycle. There are so many environmental issues that need to be addressed, but the main focus is on AGW.

What are YOU doing to stop AGW? If climate scientists are right there is nothing we can do to stop this anyways. The sun will continue to produce more energy, the earths cyclical wobble will continue to make the northern hemisphere's summers hotter. The exponentially increasing amount of CO2 China, India, and other up and coming countries will continue.

So I ask you...what can we do? We have relied on fossil fuels to progress this far. Without them we wouldn't have the luxuries we have today.

Quit trying to win arguments online over how much man is contributing to GW. The truth is nobody knows.