Jacksonville Implements Orwellian Police State, Going to 18,000 Homes Looking for Drugs and Guns

a reply to: SM2

to Tsurfer : Just because I have nothing to hide does not mean I should just open up my home for someone to search it.

And it is your right to not allow them to do so, but with the training they receive when someone says no you can't without a warrant it makes them think you have something to hide.

It is human nature that when someone denies you the ability to see for yourself then they are hiding something, even if they don't have something to hide.

a reply to: crazyewok

1) It should be up to the individual how much they are willing to cooperate

2) NEVER should the police be allowed to just barge in. The "if you dont have anything to hide what the problem" line does not wash. Sorry but the public should be free from being raided and searched by force without a warrent otherwise its a invasion of privacy!

And nowhere did I say it wasn't up to the individual as to whether or not they want to let them in, but when confronted with the you can't come in without a warrant it makes their training kick in as to what does this person have to hide.

Whether or not you have anything to hide it puts in their minds you are acting suspicious.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: boncho
You've never had police knock on your door to ask about a burglary (or other crime) in your neighborhood? I have.
They didn't force their way into my house. We talked in my carport for a while.

Publicly announcing a massive intrusive search program doesn't really make much sense. Does it?

That's different. Heck, I just had a nice chat with a really well mannered officer the other day about the neighbourhood and the pertinent issues. What police are doing about problems in the area and what owners can do.

I was just making a sarcastic spat at the topic, but I guess I can dig a little deeper:

...code-named Operation Ceasefire on Tuesday afternoon outside a Sheriff’s Office station on Myrtle Avenue.

The Sheriff’s Office largely tied the sky-rocketing gun-related crime to drug dealing.

In April, there were 60 reported aggravated assaults or batteries where a gun was fired in the city. A majority of those shootings took place in police Zone 5, which is in Jacksonville’s northwest.

This isn't about regular crime that might peril any place, but it's another black eye on the 'drug war'. While police/politicians may claim violence comes from the drug trade, the alternative would be that drugs are not illegal and the crime associated with it also vanishes. Will it end all crime? No. But the end of prohibition did end a lot of crime.

Often it's claimed that XYZ causes violence when it comes to black markets, but if it was regulated I would expect a lot less crime/harm. Instead you have a black market economy, trade, where the government sees everything as ill gotten, so when they make major seizures they chalk that into a zero sum balance. So I always wonder if they seize XYZ, don't those people owe that money to someone? It is after all an underground economy. In effect, seizures could cause just as much violence as doing nothing. And then doing nothing can cause major problems too because it will let crime figures get too big on themselves, using violence as a means for conflict resolution, resolving customer complaints and business disputes.

Rock and a hard place.

But no, this wasn't just a regular operation looking to build bonds with the public, crime prevention and information gathering. This was a drug war operation with a lot of politics thrown in.

Already officers have knocked on about 4,000 doors, Rutherford said.

Rutherford said Operation Ceasefire began at the beginning of May and has already paid dividends. He said police have seized 381 grams of coc aine, 156 grams of marijuana and 10 illegally carried guns this month. The increase in enforcement has come at the cost of some of the office’s summer overtime money, which is budgeted because crime typically increases when school lets out.

Out of the 60 shootings in April, two have been cleared by arrest and four cases have been suspended. It appears that neither of the two arrests were made in Zone 5, according to a map supplied by the Sheriff’s Office.

So they did this big song and dance, spending money and asking for increased budgets, without solving much of the shootings they claimed they were after to solve.

As Brown, Lee and several other council members stood by, Rutherford announced the Sheriff’s Office will seek funding for 40 additional police officers and 40 community service officers. The increase in the police force would cost about $3 million, according to statistics supplied by the Sheriff’s Office.

“This is a community issue, not just in one city council district, but all of the council districts,” Lee said. “The thugs and the non-law-abiding people have decided they can do what they want to when they want to ....”

The only thing in here that seems like a decent idea is:

Lee said part of the solution is to put cameras in crime hot spots.

“We can take this community back, but it has to start here. It’s got to start today,” she said.

Rutherford said the cameras will be bought though money gained by forfeiture. He did not go into specifics about that part of the operation.

Mind you, just because cameras are installed and they deter crime, it doesn't mean crime stops happen entirely just because it's unseen, those who are cognizant of the cameras will just make sure not to be on them. However, it does help a great deal for solving crimes by reckless criminals, deter violence in many cases, and provide a security net so to speak.

One drawback is some find the cameras intrusive and an invasion of privacy. There are certain places that put cameras in apartment and condo buildings in high crime zones. The thought of a camera right outside your door is a little disconcerting. (To the point I would probably want to switch neighbourhoods.) Cameras in a private condominium manned by a private security company? No problem because they work for you. But government cams? Apples and oranges.

High crime areas ought to fair better with cameras though. I remember at one point too they had gun shot detectors. Specially sensitive microphones that alert authority to gun shots or at minimum help pinpoint with a modest accuracy of where it happened after being called in.

In any case, regarding the OP, I'm not really impressed.

a reply to: boncho

lol NO

That would result in my suing the police department, calling the local tv stations as well as the newspapers.

You present a scenario that pretty much does not happen. I could present a number of ridiculous scenarios as well. Doesn't make them true though.

Regardless of what many would like to believe, the police can enter your house if the door is unlocked with or without a warrant.

There is recourse for such wrongs for those who have the money to pay a lawyer, if no money there is no real defense or recourse.

Don't open or unlock your door and they just go get a warrant to come in because your failure to grant them entry is viewed as probable cause.

If they do show up, step outside and lock the door behind you and put the keys into your pocket or slip the keys into the mail-slot, better yet to have someone inside lock the door behind you.

Don't talk to the cops if you can possibly avoid it, they are not there to help anyone but themselves by drumming up business for their keepers, courts, lawyer buddies and incarceration facilities.

Is this Jacksonville Florida we are speaking of here?....No Surprise at all, Florida is just so wrong in so many ways.
But the weather is so nice that it almost makes up for what a messed up #-hole state it is.
Almost...

a reply to: groingrinder

The whole idea is for people to tell then about things they've seen but are too afraid to come forward about. I'm sure they'll get at least some tips, as well as find done evidence of drug houses. Jacksonville isn't the best area and there's a lot going on there.

a reply to: MyHappyDogShiner

Again: Umm NO.

Failure to allow entry does not qualify as probable cause in any form, fashion or manner in any Court of Law. No Judge will grant a warrant simply on refusal to allow entry. Period.

Oh...and they cannot just "enter your home" as you stated. Not without a warrant, probable cause or by somehow invoking the Patriot Act.

I have no problem with talking to the cops but don't knock on my door.

I sleep during the day and there is so many sounds out there that sound like someone knocking/beating on the door. I have a door bell and no longer even answer knocks at the door.

If people can not read the sign over my door bell they are not worth bothering with.

ssd.eff.org...a reply to: bbracken677
article... s.chicagotribune.com/2014-05-21/news/ct-probation-searches-met-20140521_1_probation-department-searches-probationers
www.avvo.com... n-be-performed

www.nolo.com...[/ url][url=http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/school/chap12.pdf]http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/school/chap12.pdfcriminal.findlaw.com... ement.html
Want more ? , use the internet for something constructive like actually learning something instead of using it to express uneducated opinions.

Sounds like Jacksonville is trying to squeeze every last drop of Drug War funding out before Florida passes legislation that begins the legalization process. We just got medical marijuana, however it is very limited, but usually those are the first steps. I also talked to someone I know who got arrested for possession and he said the officers told him their chief was telling them not to spend as much time going for marijuana because it was tracking it's way to being legal anyway. This was in Orlando and I know I know…it's hear say but why would any of them make that up? If you say the cops would have said it to trick him into not worrying so much…it's illegal who isn't going to still hide it lol. Again I think they're just trying to suck in as many funds as they can before they can't.

a reply to: MyHappyDogShiner

Link #1 Voluntary...ie: you let them in to search. This, as an example to disprove what I stated above fails.

Link #2 didnt work

Link #3 couldnt find the page requested

Link #4 listed consent searches, plain view search (which is probable cause), and search made in connection with an arrest (really? really? lol)

Link #5 404'd

So...you have not shown me anything where an officer can ask to search my house and then let themselves in without probable cause when I refuse, and without a warrant. Excluding, of course, those exceptions (as I stated above) which relate to the Patriot Act.

No need to be an a$$hat. You have failed to prove your point and I shall not return the same attitude (which would be so easy...)

a reply to: bbracken677

Judging by the titles of the links, at least two of them involved probation.

I've had an experience once with cops going door to door looking for info. I lived in a 3 story apartment building at the time. There was a murder directly next door to my building. A man brutally stabbed his mother's boyfriend to death, and had I been up and about, I most likely would've witnessed it, because it started inside and ended up outside and I had a birdseye view from the 3rd floor. I always used to hear them yelling and screaming at each other, yet I didn't ever think to do anything about it. I was half sleeping on the couch when it happened at about 10:30 at night. The cops came pounding at my door at about midnight and I sort of woke up and could hear them talking amongst themselves and I could hear the radio chatter on their thingys. I basically said to myself, screw that, I'm not answering the door, I don't even want to know. Sure enough, they left rather quickly and I didn't find out what happened until a newspaper reporter showed up and tried to find out if I saw anything. Now had I seen anything I surely would have said something because I'm not a huge fan of murderings, but I didn't so I didn't want to be bothered.

The moral is basically, if you don't want to interact with people who knock on your door, don't answer it. Same with the phone. Just because someone calls on you, it doesn't mean you have to answer.

a reply to: MyHappyDogShiner

And here is a small portion of lawsuits regarding illegal searches and seizures.

Illegal searches and seizures

And here is information regarding lawful searches:

www.nolo.com...

This ain't my first rodeo, bud. I just refuse to submit to paranoia and know my rights after a fairly long life of experiences good and bad.

Oh, and I am not a criminal. This probably explains why I have few problems with the police and have never been subjected to illegal searches or had my rights violated (or claim to).

If the police show up at your door without a warrant, step outside then close and lock the door behind you — if you don't, they might just walk in, and later argue that you implied an invitation by leaving the door open. If they ask to come in, tell them "I do not consent to a search." Tell roommates, guests, coworkers and renters that they cannot consent on your behalf.
from www. ssd.ff.org

Search term: warrantless searches.

...whether you feel I am an asshat is really not relevant.

a reply to: bbracken677

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

but with the training they receive when someone says no you can't without a warrant it makes them think you have something to hide.

And this type of thinking is flawed, why does invoking your rights now make you suspicious?
Why are they being trained that way?

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner

...whether you feel I am an asshat is really not relevant.

a reply to: bbracken677

Never actually said it did, nor did I imply it did. That was more related to the unnecessary a$$hatted reply during an exchange of opinions and debated points. After more than 40 years dealing with: employees, the public, my children, their friends etc etc I am quite able to stomp on people verbally if I feel the need. My kids had a smart assed teen friend who thought he was smarter than everyone else. Not only did I show him that he wasn't but that he wasn't even in the ballpark. He decided to be polite to me after the exchange. We wound up being pretty good friends afterwards with him joining us at supper often.

That also was not germane to the subject at hand...just a tad bit of history regarding an old fart who is quite able to take off the kid gloves at need. There is no need get personal in a forum such as this. I have before, but I do try to resist the urge lol

a reply to: Sremmos80

They aren't being trained that way. That's just ridiculous.

They may reach that conclusion based on your attitude or perhaps after seeing the worst that humanity has to offer day after day that they have become jaded, but they are not being trained that way.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Seeing as how I am not under probation and seeing as how one has very few rights while on probation that still fails. Might as well bring up a prisoner being searched in the Penitentiary without a search warrant lol

a reply to: bbracken677

Watch cops for a while and you will indeed see they are being trained that way.
See that response from them all the time on that show.
And also it was more of a question to the poster that was saying that they are trained that way. He says it twice

Whether or not you have anything to hide it puts in their minds you are acting suspicious.

but with the training they receive when someone says no you can't without a warrant it makes them think you have something to hide.