Could Space/Time and Gravity be the same thing?

a reply to: Xeven

I was wondering the same thing a while back and most physicist believe that space time exist no matter whether
in the gravity well of an object or not! Though I believe that velocity, space/time and mass are related some how!
How exactly mass fits into this equation is unknown and may never actually be known because of the problem of
observing! Sort of the idea if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there does it make any noise!

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Xeven

How could we see those other galaxies if there was no space-time between them? What would happen to the light that hits our telescopes when they hit a section without time or space. The light would stop traveling no? Distance being a measure space, velocity being a measure of time.

Also there wouldn't really be any "there" to send a probe to, since it has no space.

Interesting thoughts

I'm no physicist so what do I know.

Actually since light is a particle it has mass no matter how miniscule it is!

"Would this not explain away dark energy? "

The existence of dark energy isn't a fact but a hypothesis to try explain a universe that is expanding at an accelerating rate. Today its believed that the universe originally expanded faster than the speed of light on creation, slowed down, then started accelerating again. Obviously something is amiss. Extra-galactic red shift anomalies hint that we may have misinterpreted the size and speed of distant galaxies so calculations on age, size and speed of our universe might be wrong. It is also possible that the creation of our universe is still occurring, that matter is still entering our physical dimension from another and the big bang was just the opening between dimensions (collision of two parallel branes etc). Today's theories will remain mainstream until newer and better theories can explain the observable universe.

I have a theory that it comes from the rotational energy of the universe.

a reply to: Xeven

You always have time. Even a absolute empty Space have time. In a absolute empty Space there would be a absolute constant timeline.

When you have a absolute empty Space With matter. You have at least two different timelines. You have a absolute constant timeline for the absolute empty Space. Than there is the timeline for the matter.

The abolute empty Space would not change because it is absolute consatnt. But the matter on the other hand would change because it is not abolute constant. The matter would change because it is not a constant like the Space surrounding it.

a reply to: ProjectUltra2013
Very good start. But you left out a variable. Notice how a lot of those have measurements of seconds as part of the units.

It's more tricky, but try reworking some of those on account of time itself as a variable. If a second can shrink or expand its actual unit value like a rubber band, you can do some funny things. Gravity supposedly does frame dragging or time dilation. However this kind of stuff is covered more by General (not special) Relativity. (Special relativity cancels out most of such factors assuming they're of fixed value and leaves them out.)

No fifth dimension needed, just treat what most people consider as the fourth as a more dynamic and flexible thing.

Of course most people in scientific fields don't really like that, it means the "yard stick" they've been using has been printed on a rubber band. It would be something if that was the case, even if the idea is only currently something to explore on an abstract level.

Also if you look into it, there's some crossover stuff with Maxwell's theorems. The electric universe people would probably cheer for that, if not for the fact that it more often than not still cancels out. However there are conditions where it may be relevant, and the status quo fails to acknowledge that. If they'd both stop arguing for each pet theory on an exclusive basis and try meshing the two together, they'd probably get something that better explains things both from a statistical (quantum) and derived ("Newtonian") approach.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xeven

You always have time. Even a absolute empty Space have time. In a absolute empty Space there would be a absolute constant timeline.

When you have a absolute empty Space With matter. You have at least two different timelines. You have a absolute constant timeline for the absolute empty Space. Than there is the timeline for the matter.

The abolute empty Space would not change because it is absolute consatnt. But the matter on the other hand would change because it is not abolute constant. The matter would change because it is not a constant like the Space surrounding it.

If your standing outside these two timelines watching a photon traveling first through the absolute empty space then the area in between the empty space and then through the empty space with matter would you observing the photons travel see that photon changes speed or would it appear to travel through all the timelines at different velocities. In other words would the photon appear to slow down when it enters the space with matter (which would mean gravity as well)?

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xeven

You always have time. Even a absolute empty Space have time. In a absolute empty Space there would be a absolute constant timeline.

When you have a absolute empty Space With matter. You have at least two different timelines. You have a absolute constant timeline for the absolute empty Space. Than there is the timeline for the matter.

The abolute empty Space would not change because it is absolute consatnt. But the matter on the other hand would change because it is not abolute constant. The matter would change because it is not a constant like the Space surrounding it.

If your standing outside these two timelines watching a photon traveling first through the absolute empty space then the area in between the empty space and then through the empty space with matter would you observing the photons travel see that photon changes speed or would it appear to travel through all the timelines at different velocities. In other words would the photon appear to slow down when it enters the space with matter (which would mean gravity as well)?

There is no way you can stand out side a absolute empty infinite Space.

You would not be able to have a photon unless you had some kind of mass producing that light photon.

In a absolute empty Space light would not bend/curve. It would be a absolute streight line.

Light will only corve because of the reflection caused by matter. The reason light curves where there is a large masses and small particles is because the particles surrounding the large mass will be effected by the large mass. Therefor light will reflect a curve when it hits the particles.
The light photons that dont hit the small particles surrounding the large mass will not curve. Because the empty Space which the photons travel through are not efffected by gravity.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xeven

You always have time. Even a absolute empty Space have time. In a absolute empty Space there would be a absolute constant timeline.

When you have a absolute empty Space With matter. You have at least two different timelines. You have a absolute constant timeline for the absolute empty Space. Than there is the timeline for the matter.

The abolute empty Space would not change because it is absolute consatnt. But the matter on the other hand would change because it is not abolute constant. The matter would change because it is not a constant like the Space surrounding it.

If your standing outside these two timelines watching a photon traveling first through the absolute empty space then the area in between the empty space and then through the empty space with matter would you observing the photons travel see that photon changes speed or would it appear to travel through all the timelines at different velocities. In other words would the photon appear to slow down when it enters the space with matter (which would mean gravity as well)?

There is no way you can stand out side a absolute empty infinite Space.

You would not be able to have a photon unless you had some kind of mass producing that light photon.

In a absolute empty Space light would not bend/curve. It would be a absolute streight line.

Light will only corve because of the reflection caused by matter. The reason light curves where there is a large masses and small particles is because the particles surrounding the large mass will be effected by the large mass. Therefor light will reflect a curve when it hits the particles.
The light photons that dont hit the small particles surrounding the large mass will not curve. Because the empty Space which the photons travel through are not efffected by gravity.

Not sure we are on same page. If a photon that has been curved off its path toward a star and passes the star, will the force (presume gravity) that cause the Photon to curve also slow the Photon down as it passes and departs the star on its way to other destinations?

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xeven

You always have time. Even a absolute empty Space have time. In a absolute empty Space there would be a absolute constant timeline.

When you have a absolute empty Space With matter. You have at least two different timelines. You have a absolute constant timeline for the absolute empty Space. Than there is the timeline for the matter.

The abolute empty Space would not change because it is absolute consatnt. But the matter on the other hand would change because it is not abolute constant. The matter would change because it is not a constant like the Space surrounding it.

If your standing outside these two timelines watching a photon traveling first through the absolute empty space then the area in between the empty space and then through the empty space with matter would you observing the photons travel see that photon changes speed or would it appear to travel through all the timelines at different velocities. In other words would the photon appear to slow down when it enters the space with matter (which would mean gravity as well)?

There is no way you can stand out side a absolute empty infinite Space.

You would not be able to have a photon unless you had some kind of mass producing that light photon.

In a absolute empty Space light would not bend/curve. It would be a absolute streight line.

Light will only corve because of the reflection caused by matter. The reason light curves where there is a large masses and small particles is because the particles surrounding the large mass will be effected by the large mass. Therefor light will reflect a curve when it hits the particles.
The light photons that dont hit the small particles surrounding the large mass will not curve. Because the empty Space which the photons travel through are not efffected by gravity.

Not sure we are on same page. If a photon that has been curved off its path toward a star and passes the star, will the force (presume gravity) that cause the Photon to curve also slow the Photon down as it passes and departs the star on its way to other destinations?

A photon will always resume a streight line from its last deflection until the photon hists another particle/matter and reflects of it.
A photon that travels through a pure medium of Space will not slow Down. Ref. light speed in a vacuum.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xeven

You always have time. Even a absolute empty Space have time. In a absolute empty Space there would be a absolute constant timeline.

When you have a absolute empty Space With matter. You have at least two different timelines. You have a absolute constant timeline for the absolute empty Space. Than there is the timeline for the matter.

The abolute empty Space would not change because it is absolute consatnt. But the matter on the other hand would change because it is not abolute constant. The matter would change because it is not a constant like the Space surrounding it.

If your standing outside these two timelines watching a photon traveling first through the absolute empty space then the area in between the empty space and then through the empty space with matter would you observing the photons travel see that photon changes speed or would it appear to travel through all the timelines at different velocities. In other words would the photon appear to slow down when it enters the space with matter (which would mean gravity as well)?

There is no way you can stand out side a absolute empty infinite Space.

You would not be able to have a photon unless you had some kind of mass producing that light photon.

In a absolute empty Space light would not bend/curve. It would be a absolute streight line.

Light will only corve because of the reflection caused by matter. The reason light curves where there is a large masses and small particles is because the particles surrounding the large mass will be effected by the large mass. Therefor light will reflect a curve when it hits the particles.
The light photons that dont hit the small particles surrounding the large mass will not curve. Because the empty Space which the photons travel through are not efffected by gravity.

Not sure we are on same page. If a photon that has been curved off its path toward a star and passes the star, will the force (presume gravity) that cause the Photon to curve also slow the Photon down as it passes and departs the star on its way to other destinations?

A photon will always resume a streight line from its last deflection until the photon hists another particle/matter and reflects of it.
A photon that travels through a pure medium of Space will not slow Down. Ref. light speed in a vacuum.

So your saying that gravity does not curve photons? Only hitting a particle does?

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xeven

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Xeven

You always have time. Even a absolute empty Space have time. In a absolute empty Space there would be a absolute constant timeline.

When you have a absolute empty Space With matter. You have at least two different timelines. You have a absolute constant timeline for the absolute empty Space. Than there is the timeline for the matter.

The abolute empty Space would not change because it is absolute consatnt. But the matter on the other hand would change because it is not abolute constant. The matter would change because it is not a constant like the Space surrounding it.

If your standing outside these two timelines watching a photon traveling first through the absolute empty space then the area in between the empty space and then through the empty space with matter would you observing the photons travel see that photon changes speed or would it appear to travel through all the timelines at different velocities. In other words would the photon appear to slow down when it enters the space with matter (which would mean gravity as well)?

There is no way you can stand out side a absolute empty infinite Space.

You would not be able to have a photon unless you had some kind of mass producing that light photon.

In a absolute empty Space light would not bend/curve. It would be a absolute streight line.

Light will only corve because of the reflection caused by matter. The reason light curves where there is a large masses and small particles is because the particles surrounding the large mass will be effected by the large mass. Therefor light will reflect a curve when it hits the particles.
The light photons that dont hit the small particles surrounding the large mass will not curve. Because the empty Space which the photons travel through are not efffected by gravity.

Not sure we are on same page. If a photon that has been curved off its path toward a star and passes the star, will the force (presume gravity) that cause the Photon to curve also slow the Photon down as it passes and departs the star on its way to other destinations?

A photon will always resume a streight line from its last deflection until the photon hists another particle/matter and reflects of it.
A photon that travels through a pure medium of Space will not slow Down. Ref. light speed in a vacuum.

So your saying that gravity does not curve photons? Only hitting a particle does?

I am saying that light is deflected from particle to particle within a gravity Field. Therefor it seams like light is being curved.

To be able to observe light it must hit something and give reflection.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Xeven

How could we see those other galaxies if there was no space-time between them? What would happen to the light that hits our telescopes when they hit a section without time or space. The light would stop traveling no? Distance being a measure space, velocity being a measure of time.

Also there wouldn't really be any "there" to send a probe to, since it has no space.

Interesting thoughts

I'm no physicist so what do I know.

This is what I was going to say, surely if between galaxies there was no space nor time, energy (eg; light) would not be able to travel to our galaxy & our Earth for us humans to see?

Interesting topic, very fascinating & thought provoking subject. Strangely reminds me of the age old question, if a apple falls off a tree & no one (man or animal) is there to hear it, does it actually make a sound?

a reply to: AblyEnergy

I seriously think something with Atoms make gravity which happens to also be spacetime. You go to somewhere in cosmos where no matter or energy exists then that location also does not have spacetime until you put matter or energy there.

I think for Instance the Earth the Sun, the solar system and our galaxy create our local space time which are just observed effects effects of gravity.

a reply to: Xeven

Good point, I never thought of it from that angle. So when light does travel between galaxies, it's almost bringing the dark void to life, just by being there. Makes sense.

a reply to: Xeven

You go to somewhere in cosmos where no matter or energy exists then that location also does not have spacetime until you put matter or energy there.

That wouldnt be true. If you go somewhere where there is no matter or energy. That palce would have Space because you are there. It would also have time, but time would be absolute constant because there is no matter in that Space to change or have motion.

It would be a absolute constant Space time.

You could be there Your Whole lifte time, and the only thing that would change is you.

This is a theory I've put forward a few times on ATS and elsewhere. Gravity and time being the same thing. Do the math (I can't).

a reply to: AblyEnergy
Exactly what I'm getting at.

a reply to: spy66
I think I see what your saying. I should have said you observe some place in the cosmos rather than "go too"...

My being there would bring gravity thus space/time to that location which was just a void before.

If what I'm proposing is true then photons traveling through void areas would be instantaneous until it contacts the next location where gravity and spacetime exist. This would mean the galaxies out there might be closer than we think. At least the galaxies who's photons traveled through voids before reaching us.

I suppose the photons presence in the voids would create at least some miniscule amount of spacetime as it passes through the void. Would have to factor that in.

originally posted by: Xeven
a reply to: spy66
I think I see what your saying. I should have said you observe some place in the cosmos rather than "go too"...

My being there would bring gravity thus space/time to that location which was just a void before.

If what I'm proposing is true then photons traveling through void areas would be instantaneous until it contacts the next location where gravity and spacetime exist. This would mean the galaxies out there might be closer than we think. At least the galaxies who's photons traveled through voids before reaching us.

I suppose the photons presence in the voids would create at least some miniscule amount of spacetime as it passes through the void. Would have to factor that in.

I think you still are a bit of, but not by much

Still if yo aint at the location which is absolute empty, there would still be Space/time there. Its just that the Space time would be a absolute constant, because there are no finite matter that changes or have motion at the location.

If you travel to the location you dont bring Space With you. Your body would take up a volume of the empty Space.Because you are 3D. You will be the finite Space/time in the absolute empty Space if you were at the location.

When it comes to the speed of light in a absolute empty Space. The speed of light would be absolute. That means you are right about light being instantaneous. There would be no resistance in that Space except the empty void it self.