Atheists being persecuted in the USA.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

Oh, PLEASE! Just because Christians can no longer wear the "We're Number One" foam hand doesn't' mean they're being persecuted! LOL Extricating Christianity out of the government is NOT persecution!

Persecution: the subjecting of a race or group of people to unfair treatment.

I personally would not use the word persecution. I would use the word dominance.

A specific belief system has had dominance in America.

This specific belief system attempts to dominate government and many areas of society.

This specific belief system has in the past overstepped its "bounds", and attempts to continue in same manner. When opposition stands in its way, it cries persecution.

As you previously posted -- it's all about control.

a reply to: charles1952

Precisely...

Mark 13:13 says "Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Most notable is the phrase "because of me"...THAT is persecution.

Matthew 15:11 says ""Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

Again, "because of me"...


A very vast majority of events which Christians deem "persecution" aren't actually biblical persecution. Atheists don't like Christians because they seem to be self-absorbed, ego-centric, better-than-thou, holier-than-thou, wiser-than-thou, fire and brimstone breathing fear-mongerers...
but it's only persecution if they hate you because you love Christ....

A2D

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Children, when it is the holidays, are not thinking of religion, they are thinking of presents and of the lights, trees, and the festive nature of the holidays. And personally, most get a kick out of singing a lot of the Christmas carols, including the secular music that is there. Do we destroy the wonder in a child;s mind cause some would find some of the music so offensive, cause it mentions one religion or another? Do you want to continue to divide a society in ways that it should not be, or use such to bring a community together?

I'm only talking about schools (no one is taking Christmas away from the children), and even then, only the religious aspects of it. I don't have any problem with schools celebrating secular Christmas, as long as they are willing to celebrate other holidays that spring from other religions.

The idea of other faiths being shown in institutions is new, and it needs to take time to be accepted. But by forcing changes is wrong, and ultimately it divides the community, where one group or another feels that they are oppressed.

That's what people told black people in the 50s. And women in the 60s. And gay people today. The ONLY way it's going to change is force, I'm afraid.

" The ONLY way it's going to change is force, I'm afraid."

yeah, that'll work.
why don't we all just wear grey jump suits too.
logan's run, here we come.

that kid in the op vid is a major douche.
if the atheists kept it out of our faces and in their home, where it belongs, everyone would be better off.

i don't care what anyone believes or doesn't believe.
just don't shove it down my throat.

a reply to: charles1952

Thanks for the kind words, Charles, and I will do my best to explain my view on this....but don't expect a miracle.

Right away I have to concede that I may have been the one going to extremes by saying it only leads to persecution. That is an absolute, and I don't like to deal in absolutes. So I must apologize.

Some have said that America was founded on Christian values. I don't believe that. Some say that we are a Christian nation...that is true. I believe 75% of American citizens identify as being Judeo-Christian.

No problem there.

Over the course of our brief history, Christianity has become more than just a religion. It's become a part of our culture. So much so that we place the ten commandments and biblical versus in our halls of government; we swear to a bible to tell the truth....and nothing but the truth; we don't allow gays to get married because it's a sin; we have politicians that push legislation based on "Christian morals" and we have an entire party that has hijacked the name of God and Jesus Christ to become the "party of God".

I have a problem with that.

The example I pointed to in the movie Contact really highlights the cultural mindset in America that religion or belief in God is crucial....so much so that they chose the ambassador for Earth's first ET contact based on one's religion. It didn't matter whom was best for the job. What mattered was their personal faith.

Thomas Jefferson once said that religion is between a man and his God. It is a personal experience, personal journey...and it had no place in the halls of government.

We don't have that. Our government has respected one religion over another and that is a bad, bad thing.

Now that I read your post, I have to admit that perhaps the Christians are being persecuted a bit here. I'm sure you understand the concept of blowback. Maybe the entire "Christian-culture" has been shoved down our throats so much that this new atheist movement and rise in people talking about separation of church and state has sprung-up to counter it.

I know I'm sick of it, and while I would never bad-mouth one's beliefs, I should be able to expect a fair and completely secular government that is designed to respect and represent all of it's people.....not be at the whim of cultural trends.

Side Note: I believe the other side has taken it to extremes as well. Obama covering the cross at Notre Dame? Stupid. A teacher cannot have a bible on her desk? Stupid.

Both sides need to relax, believe what you want to believe and let the government worry about roads, taxes, war...etc.

a reply to: tsingtao

Wow.
Maybe you should take your own advice.
Like I and others have said If religion didn't encroach into state affairs school (unless it is an RE lesson which teaches all) didn't persecute gay folk and let women rule their own bodies there wouldn't be a problem.
But it is a constant battle to make sure the religious don't make the country you live in doesn't become a theocracy.

Or is that what you want a Christian theocracy?.

Also I have noticed while a loud dude the guy in the OP has many valid points why hasn't anyone even attempted to address what he says?.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

Each person is going to have their own opinion on what should be done. I don't have any real hope that any of it is going to change, and I think it's disingenuous of you to suggest that I want to change the past or our founding documents. Mainly, I'd say if we can got forth from today and continue to extricate religion from the government, that would be fine with me.

I don't know where you get the idea that I want "God" removed from every great work of art, every piece of music or ban anything at all. A little overboard when considering my original suggestion was to strengthen the separation of church and STATE. What do these things have to do with the state?

a reply to: Annee

I posted the definition of persecution because someone asked for it. I would agree with you that domination is a more accurate word for this situation.

originally posted by: CagliostroTheGreat
a reply to: boymonkey74

Truth?

Haha... what's that?

I think its funny.

"Christians are persecuted!"

"Atheists are persecuted!"

"We're all bloody persecuted!"

Well, you know what? Its time to take a stand dammit!!!

Discordians are being persecuted this very instant, all around the globe!

Who cares? Suck it up all you religions and your respective constituents! Suck it up.

Gee... I just realized, I'm not being picked on by anybody. Am I being discriminated against?

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic


But how can you remove something that is ingrained in some of the most important documents that shaped the country? Where major events, religion was brought up, where leaders of the past gave thanks to god and used such as a driving force, and as guidance that they would govern wisely?
Even the very oaths of office that elected officials take, end with the statement: So help me God.
The Judicial system, the oath that is taken before testimony is given, is done on the bible and sworn before the court and God.

So church and state, will always at some level be intertwined.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Also I have noticed while a loud dude the guy in the OP has many valid points why hasn't anyone even attempted to address what he says?.

As far as addressing the guy in the video, I didn't honestly feel the need to even begin. His points are somewhat vague and moot.

I've had the priviledge to visit and live in numerous areas of the continental United States and rarely have I seen anything to the extent he claims. In fact, I often see things contrary to a biblical worldview being portrayed in billboards and the like.

Not only is the support for homosexual marriage widespread, but things such as Obamacare directly force employers to violate a portion of their religious beliefs. It doesn't take one very long to realize that America as a whole is becoming more and more secular. With this turn towards a more secular society, I don't see how anyone can rationalize the idea that atheists are being persecuted...In fact, it appears that atheists are gaining more and more freedom.

Am I going to sit around and boohoo because of the state of our union? Certainly not. I believe very firmly in free will. No one will ever force me to do something contrary to my beliefs...They can try, but they certainly will not succeed....and I would not expect anything less from anyone that doesn't believe the same as me. Whether you believe gay marriage is acceptable or not, stand up for your values and beliefs. Whether you believe abortion is acceptable or not, I would expect you to stand for what you believe. --This is what made our country great in the first place.

(The only problem arises when one group begins to feel as though their belief should be the belief of everyone else. We need to be honest with ourselves and with everyone around us. We're not all the same....but we should all be tolerant of one another, for God is the judge and we are called to LOVE.)
A2D

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: Annee

I posted the definition of persecution because someone asked for it. I would agree with you that domination is a more accurate word for this situation.

Oh, I was just speaking of me as an atheist. I would not use the word persecution.

I honestly don't think many atheists would if they are being serious.

originally posted by: tsingtao

if the atheists kept it out of our faces and in their home, where it belongs, everyone would be better off.

This really does make me feel I'm living back in the 50s.

When you walked around with a fake smile, pretending everything was all happy happy, as you kept your "closet door" shut and shoved everything else under the rug.

No thanks.

originally posted by: boymonkey74

But it is a constant battle to make sure the religious don't make the country you live in doesn't become a theocracy.

Or is that what you want a Christian theocracy?.

When you consider the fact that 75-85% of the country identifies as Christians, if we wanted a theocracy, we would have a theocracy.

I don't get why atheist always rant about Christians, when they aren't the ones going door to door like Mormons. And touching kids like Catholic priest. Yeah some Christians like to spread the word they believe, and some believe and do like to warn others about hell. But that's just because they care about you. If you where about to walk into a cave for a shortcut and someone stood in front of you and said go around, their is believed to be danger in their... Yet you walked in anyways and found no danger, wouldn't you thank them anyway for the concern?

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: OpenEars123

It would be a good start

something to build upon.

Exactly
I'm not great at handy work, but I would definitely help!

a reply to: sheepslayer247

Dear sheepslayer247,

You ask me not to expect a miracle, and then you deliver the largest one in the thread? What a guy.

You write that you are an agnostic or an Atheist and you are interested in a discussion and having your words understood. You don't call that a miracle? I haven't seen it from anyone else.

But my purpose is not to criticize the others but to thank and encourage you. It is now my opinion that it is possible to have a discussion on ATS where everyone learns, but no one had better expect it. In the past, I went into every thread with excitement and great hopes. Thank you for reminding me that it is possible.

(Irony alert. Just below what I am typing right now, a poster is asking why no one has addressed what was said in the video. This is the same poster who was asked to respond to the other link in the OP, and hasn't.)

I think I have expressed enough of my disappointment for now.

You may have found, with your native wisdom (and if anyone thinks I'm talking about the people involved in the Redskins controversy, I will hire detectives to find you and erect a cone of silence around you so you can't affect anyone again), a good path from this mess.

Both sides need to relax, believe what you want to believe and let the government worry about roads, taxes, war...etc.

There will be questions about what the government needs to be worried about, of course. But you are, at least, issuing a call to both sides that they should lay down their guns. The blowback you describe seems to be bringing us to more and more crazy extremes.

You may be familiar with Snopes. They have a fascinating (at least to me) little "True - False" article. This one involves the two steel beams found, not constructed, in the Ground Zero rubble. They happen to form a cross. Snopes says:

The discovery of a 17-foot steel-beam cross in the rubble of the World Trade Center towers two days after the 2001 terrorist attacks on America provided a tangible symbol of comfort and faith to many of those horrified by the events of September 11. Some of those who had access to the WTC site at that time made pilgrimages to pray before the cross and leave behind written messages such as "God Bless Our Fallen Brothers." . . . Countless other ceremonies and prayer vigils were held at the site of WTC cross in the weeks and months that followed. Two years later, the cross remains in place along Church Street on the eastern border of the 16-acre WTC site.

www.snopes.com...

It, is perhaps, not surprising that many groups have made plans to include that cross into the Ground Zero Memorial. American Atheists have been opposed, saying"

"None of this money should be used to construct any religious memorial, . . . . This is a public area, and it's being rebuilt with public funds. Tax money must not be used to construct any sectarian memorial."

Johnson added that calls to include the cross as part of a permanent memorial "insult the victims, rescue workers and other Americans who are not Christians, who do not believe in a deity and are not religious."

www.snopes.com...

American Atheists filed a law suit in 2012 claiming:
“The plaintiffs, and each of them, are suffering, and will continue to suffer damages, both physical and emotional, from the existence of the challenged cross,” the lawsuit American Atheists v. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey states. “Named plaintiffs have suffered …. dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish from the knowledge that they are made to feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack.”

The suit explains the named plaintiffs “have seen the cross, either in person or on television, are being subjected to, and injured in consequence.”

Read more at www.wnd.com...

As anyone should expect, the law suit was dismissed. I don't know whether it was appealed. The Supreme Court has had something to say on this issue in the 2010 case of Salazar v. Buono:

The goal of avoiding governmental endorsement does not require eradication of all religious symbols in the public realm. A cross by the side of a public highway marking, for instance, the place where a state trooper perished need not be taken as a statement of governmental support for sectarian beliefs.

The Constitution does not oblige government to avoid any public acknowledgment of religion’s role in society. See Lee v. Weisman, (1992) (“A relentless and all-pervasive attempt to exclude religion from every aspect of public life could itself become inconsistent with the Constitution”). See also Corporation of Presiding Bishop of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints v. Amos, (1987) (“This Court has long recognized that the government may (and sometimes must) accommodate religious practices and that it may do so without violating the Establishment Clause.” Rather, it leaves room to accommodate divergent values within a constitutionally permissible framework. (Some citations omitted.)

That's where we should be headed. Drop all the insanity about a view, on television, of the Ground Zero Cross, causing Dyspepsia (until now, I didn't see Atheists as wimps). Ooops! I made a mistake. The law suit said they were made ill by the sheer existence of the ground Zero Cross. (You know, if I were an Atheist, I wouldn't admit that a religious symbol had such great power over me through action at a distance.) Everybody step back, breathe, reject extreme claims from whatever source, remember that we're dealing with people, not inhuman enemies, And for GOD"S SAKE, TALK TO EACH OTHER.

Hey boymonkey74, what do you think? Want to sit down and try to be reasonable? I'll try, too (though I fail often).

I'm glad you're around sheepslayer247. You have the unenviable task of being one of my islands of sanity.

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: tsingtao

" The ONLY way it's going to change is force, I'm afraid."

yeah, that'll work.
why don't we all just wear grey jump suits too.
logan's run, here we come.

that kid in the op vid is a major douche.
if the atheists kept it out of our faces and in their home, where it belongs, everyone would be better off.

i don't care what anyone believes or doesn't believe.
just don't shove it down my throat.

Yes, god forbid Christians become slightly less privileged in this country. And your solution to everyone being better off would be true, if by everybody you mean "everybody but atheists".

a reply to: charles1952

Made ill? Well, they are either being melodramatic for the cause....or they are a bunch of fricken' pansies!

Either way, I disagree with them as well.

The main point I think we need to agree upon is we should let people believe what they want to believe, display or talk about it in public, but let government serve as the secular middle-man that allows us to have our differences....but we are still governed equally.

Boymonkey74


I find it hilarious you write a thread about persecution of athiests after all the insults you have directed towards christians while you have been on ATS.

It is clear to all of us you HATE christians. Yet here you are yet again.