Who was Jesus?

a reply to: truthseeker84

. . . watch a movie called "The Man From Earth". . . . SPOIL ALERT!!

Not much of a spoiler, since he starts into the explanation in the fist five minutes.
Kind of interesting movie about stuff.

Edit to add: at 58 min. into it, it got so annoying, I had to turn it off. If you thought the Zeitgeist video was a revelation of truth, you might enjoy this movie (I think both are bunk).

How are you sure that your own existence can be proven in mamy years to come?
Libraries close.
Information swaps and changes hands.
Text is written and rewritten.
Land is turned over.
Buildings demolished and rebuilt......

The only obvious way would be that of

Bloodlines

a reply to: guidetube
Who is Moses ! Why do not you have a doubt about Moses !? Where are the historical evidences of Moses !!?
Why are You all in doubt about Jesus, not Moses !

Well.... Jesus was obviously a corporation the same as God is....

Omnipotent power and immortality without liability.

Corporations are legal fictions created by lawyers and clerical errors....

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
Well.... Jesus was obviously a corporation the same as God is....
Omnipotent power and immortality without liability.
Corporations are legal fictions created by lawyers and clerical errors....

Jesus was a human.
So What about Moses. Was he a legal fiction too !?

originally posted by: windword
There is nothing in the Jesus story that can be historically proven to have happened, outside of the Bible.

I believe there are some very good reasons for this.

Most of us would agree that history is a VERY effective form of propaganda

"History is more or less bunk." ~ Henry Ford

"The falsification of history has done more to impede human development than any one thing known to mankind" - Rousseau

“the biggest cover-up in the history of mankind is the history of mankind itself”

“There are two histories: official history, lying, and then secret history, where you find the real causes of events.” ~ Honoré de Balzac

If anything, Jesus was an Egyptian Jew, born into a fairly wealthy and influential family, who was a distant descendant of Solomon. He was very well educated, and was among other things a skilled magician and sorcerer, having studies esoteric documents in the remnants of the library at Alexandria. He was handsome, very articulate, and had big political aspirations. He hoped to make himself literally the King of the Jews by organizing a popular revolt that would get rid of the occupying Romans and Pharisees in one swoop. In order to build a large following relatively quickly, he took over the followers of his cousin, John the Baptist. He got John to baptize him, giving him legitimacy, then got John beheaded with the help of another cousin (and likely consort), Salome. He used John the Baptist's message of brotherly love to gain more followers. He also offered public displays of sorcery and healing -- including necromancy -- to raise funds and attract attention.

Unfortunately for Jesus, he became over-confident and "possessed" by the very demons he used to do his miracles. His followers became worried about his erratic behavior and boastful claims. He moved too quickly into Jerusalem, and caught the attention of the Pharisees by physically removing the moneylenders from the Temple ("his" Temple), and they got the Romans involved. And Jesus ended up dead for his troubles. Another failed pretender to the throne.

What ended up lasting though, with quite a bit of embellishment of the story (including a resurrection happy ending) from folks like Peter and Paul, is John the Baptist's message.

a reply to: St Udio

1) Paul didn't even come around until the book of Acts, after Jesus had ascended. 2) Matthew, also known as Levi, was a very educated and literate tax collector who had a skill that none of the other disciples/apostles had... he knew how to write in short hand. 3) It is pretty presumptuous of you to say that because someone is a fisherman that they are uneducated and illiterate. Peter wrote 2 books in the NT, and they are wonderful works of literature. The fact that they are also inspired and infallible make them even better

a reply to: maes2

Jesus was a human.

Why do you think that?

a reply to: Murgatroid

originally posted by: windword
There is nothing in the Jesus story that can be historically proven to have happened, outside of the Bible.

I believe there are some very good reasons for this.

The Catholic Church brought us the Bible and our history as we know it........

a reply to: windword
I do not know what you believe in. But if you believe in Torah, you can find points about Jesus in Torah. They are somehow mistranslated.

for example look at these verses of Torah : Isaiah 21:7
look at how they translate this :

"Prepare a table, and spread out a carpet! Eat and drink! Rise up, you princes, and oil the shields! For the Lord has said to me, “Go, post a lookout; let him report what he sees. When he sees riders — pairs of horsemen, riders on donkeys, riders on camels — he must pay close attention.” Then the lookout reported, “Lord, I stand on the watchtower all day, and I stay at my post all night. Look, riders come — horsemen in pairs.” And he answered, saying, “Babylon has fallen,k has fallen. All the images of her gods have been shattered on the ground.”l"

this is mistranslated. someone who is a bit familiar with Hebrew, Arabic and old eastern languages can understand that this is mistranslated. even you yourself can study and know how it is mistranslated. it is betraying Jesus.
Those verses are enunciating of coming of two riders, One riding a donkey and one riding a camel :

"When he sees two riders  one riding on donkey,one riding on camel — he must pay close attention. Then the lookout reported,“Lord, I stand on the watchtower all day, and I stay at my post all night. Look, riders come — a couple riders ”"

Their mistranslations are so cute that you may think two groups of donkeys and camels are coming like two armies. But as a matter of fact they are all singular words. A couple of riders will come, one is riding a donkey and one is riding a camel !
yes the man riding the donkey was Jesus. they are betraying Jesus. one of signs of Jesus was that he entered Jerusalem riding a donkey. you can read it in Matthew 21.

Who was Jesus?

God incarnate.

Now if you think he's the God of Abraham incarnate ... or the Buddhist version of 'God' (a 'master' who has reached enlightenment and returned to teach) ... or the God of everyone ... whatever. But I believe He is God incarnate.

BTW .. the Buddhist version easily fits. Jesus 'came down from Heaven' ... performed supernatural life and death miracles ... was a teacher of peace and love and mercy .... said that the afterlife was so spiritual and great that we couldn't imagine what it was like ... said to clean up our acts so we didn't have to 'pay the last penny' for them .... etc ... It's easy to see Buddhist teaching in there and to see Jesus as a reincarnated Buddhist enlightened master.

a reply to: maes2

Can someone really be said to have fulfilled a prophecy when they are deliberately doing things in order that prophecies may be filled?

Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet,

This theme is repeated several times in the New Testament.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: maes2
Can someone really be said to have fulfilled a prophecy when they are deliberately doing things in order that prophecies may be filled?

Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet,

This theme is repeated several times in the New Testament.

Interesting question. This is a pack. Some persons have very outweighing and strong personality so that they can not be omitted from history. And Jesus was one of them. They could not wipe his influence completely so they had no way unless to alter it. They crawled into the churches and they managed Christianity. As you saw they do translate special parts wrongly in order to hide something. And this is done among eyes of those who claim they are Christians.
I can show you lots of such mistranslations.
This is the old repeated story of altered religions among history.
Humanity does not accept the divine representatives of God, Humanity wants the power for himself. For his egos. He thinks he can manage the world better than God !
So he had no choice unless to omit the servants of God. Most of them are just playing with religions. Even those who are secularist, they themselves are obeying the religion of secularism !
Religion is the style of living. And style of living is the religion.
Sometime this will end. When the wisdom of humanity grows, capitalism, communism, and others gets defeated and he becomes disappointed and he returns to his God, appealing the return of Messiahs.

originally posted by: windword
Can someone really be said to have fulfilled a prophecy when they are deliberately doing things in order that prophecies may be filled?

Good question. Everyone back in the day knew the prophecies of the O.T. So you think they forced things to happen and said certain things so that the prophecies would be fulfilled out of their time? It's entirely possible. I don't know if doing that would count. I'd think not ...

Thing is, we don't know if they went out of their way to fulfill them, or if they unfolded that way.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Thing is, we don't know if they went out of their way to fulfill them, or if they unfolded that way.

And, we don't know if some stories were made up just to fulfill certain prophecies.

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: St Udio

1) Paul didn't even come around until the book of Acts, after Jesus had ascended. 2) Matthew, also known as Levi, was a very educated and literate tax collector who had a skill that none of the other disciples/apostles had... he knew how to write in short hand. 3) It is pretty presumptuous of you to say that because someone is a fisherman that they are uneducated and illiterate. Peter wrote 2 books in the NT, and they are wonderful works of literature. The fact that they are also inspired and infallible make them even better

I hope your not offended...but since you asked...

as for #1- that was about his 'awakening' or 'epiphany' not his presence along side the Maverick Priest/Teacher of the people, AKA: 'Jesus'

as for #2- 'you' say he was educated/scholarly/learned...so why did he become a despised tax collector for both the Priests & the Roman occupation... were all the Professorships and Judge-&-Magistrate jobs taken?

as to #3- the terms uneducated and illiterate were not bad things to be in that era--- but being ignorant was a stigma even then... Fishermen, trades people concentrated all their learning to the occupation they were learning, there were no school books for the masses and the market place Scribes did most all the writing & communications duties as even successful businessmen were more than likely to be illiterate - as was the Norm for that era in the Levant
Besides, the people had to be multi-lingual & know Roman, Greek and Aramaic just to get the things they needed instead of reading & writing which was a waste of energy & resources/time for the average person


I reckon you think that life then was not so different than now, where 80% of us are H.S. educated here in the USA and that ranks something like 12th in the world

It does seem there was prophecies of Jesus. That around his accepted birthdate people started to put forward a spiritual leader. Whether just proclaimed to set forth an age, if he lived and pushed a cause and what cause is open.

He certainly is accountable for having influence in society.
His story told of someone teaching about God, that loving and giving will always win out, and what you do know you take to the after life.

Someone asked if you believe the story of Jesus. I think it should be do you believe the message?
But how do you believe the message if you don't know who is telling it?
The message is also very challenging, to live so good. To do all that for someone else would be nuts.
But then you have to believe the message.

The person known as "Jesus" through the religion(s) such as Christianity or the historical Jesus is not fact.In Christianity he is an idol of the religious carnal mind created by the doctrines of man.The historical Jesus is only known by the writings of the books of the of what is called the new testament(testimony).

From the writings of the new testimony Yahoshua never told anyone to write down anything he said or did yet they did…many years later because there was no need for it because, many that were alive were eye witnesses .... especially the disciples.Their writings were never meant to be "the doctrines of men" religion.Their sole purpose was to document their witnesses of Yahoshua.That is the sole purpose of the old and new testimony…to be a witness (evidence) of Yahoshua.

That witness is not to "prove" anything but is a testimony, testifying to the fact of Truth.It doesn't matter one bit if anyone believes it or not, that belief or non belief does not effect facts.If someone wants to believe their Jesus is a prophet,a teacher or an alien from another world it doesn't matter one bit to alter the true fact it only effects those persons that believe(or don't believe)...and everyone they infect with their belief.

The Christian doctrine of "believing in" Jesus is not true fact.The scriptures say nothing of it.The scriptures only witness to the true fact of Yahoshua.The idol of Jesus the "gnostic prophet,religious moral teacher,inscrutable guru is false.Yahoshua did not witness to any of those things they are all religion.

Yahoshua had one purpose….the meaning of his name which is …the salvation of the creator God .Salvation means deliverance. Yahoshua will deliver ALL of mankind from the realm of death and imperception.Salvation is a process not an event.It is individual not a "mass awakening" ascension of humanity.

It doesn't matter one bit if you believe or dis believe that true fact it can't alter it in the least.In other words you WILL be delivered whether you want to or not.Your belief or dis belief do have a great impact on "how" and "when" but not "if" or "what". The fact is EVERYONE will be delivered from the realm of death and imperception(hades) by Yahoshua.That is the Way the Truth and the Life(Spirit).

That is the "sole" purpose of the testimony of Yahoshua....It is the Good News!So you can believe or disbelieve your Jesus is historical all you want it doesn't alter the true fact of Yahoshua one bit. The most consistent phenomena of human nature I've observed is"a man convinced against his will is unconvinced still."In other words there is no convincing someone of something they don't believe in.It is them that have to have their beliefs changed by "knowing" the truth(that is the only way it sets anyone free).The fact is if someone who does or doesn't believe in something even if it was proved to them otherwise they would still believe or not believe in their "belief"no matter what because belief is fickle and false…. it doesn't "know" anything it only believes what it "wants to".

If there is a creator God they are VERY aware of this immense human flaw(i.e…..sin..which means missing the mark of maturity).So believe or disbelieve away!(you will anyways) …but know there is no more vain exercise in futility.Jesus will be believed and not be believed by many vain arguments that have nothing to do with the fact of Truth…because there ain't no "Jesus" ....thank God!

originally posted by: guidetube
But how do you believe the message if you don't know who is telling it?

The answer to that question comes once you have had a supernatural encounter with the author of the message.

That was my experience anyways.

In 1979 I was all alone in a house and God manifested in a tangible form.

I suddenly KNEW who he was because the knowledge was instantly in my mind.

Kind of a road to Emmaus appearance type thing.

I knew it was a supernatural event and it left a profound impact on what I believed even to this day.