It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Is Weather Engineering Becoming Geo-Engineering?

page: 1
13
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:19 AM
link   

Hello, my fellow ATS’ers!

I come with some observations, a theory and some things to ponder.

My OP is broken up in that order, as a matter of fact!

Since first posting my “Geoengineering, The IPCC and our Global Future” thread in January, I’ve personally become very interested in the overall topic. From Ocean Gyres to Antarctic Vulcanism, it’s been downright fun to explore the subject and learn about all kinds of natural processes along with the ways they interact.

However, a few things haven’t entirely made sense, or they’ve made sense in ways that aren’t logical on the surface, no pun intended. Some are patterns in the world weather and ways its been changing in both subtle and serious ways. What I want to look at here is a question of wind and rain.

A lot of wind and rain in one area, in fact. Not so much, perhaps, in another. In short, Weather Modification and climate engineering.

Observations

In what I’ve come across, I’m not even sure it’s entirely deliberate, if at all so. It could as easily be the mother of all unintended consequences, or simple indifference above necessity. First, a look at some science. Some real basic stuff…don’t worry, I’m not Mr. Wizard. Just a humble bunny.

The Air which Unites - The Jet Stream
(Pacific)

(Atlantic)


Those are the yucky science versions. Here is the eye candy and a year in the life of planetary weather patterns.


The last one there is a product of the CSDMS Facility in the University of Colorado at Boulder. It shows in actual global flow what the first two show in text book/academic terms.

Among other things, what this shows is the degree of interconnectivity between land masses and among nations. Sometimes it almost looks like China is throwing weather clear to North America and a long lazy river of air flows the other way from Africa to South America. The video shows a lot and it all matters to what this thread is concerned about.




posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:19 AM
link   
The Air which Unites – The Sands Which Bind

So we see that air patterns connect the continents. Well.. DOH!...We knew that!...one might say. Personally, I’d hope we all knew it on some basic level, but even I found the last video above to be a real education to watch. Still..It’s just air, right? Who cares… Right? Well, no, it isn’t just air and yes, we do need to care. Very much so.

First, two quick examples of the real impact of the moving air currents and just how real the ties are across oceans of distance. It’s one thing to see it in a graphic. It’s another to know you have likely experienced it or breathed the proof.

-The Pacific


Earlier this year, an unusually large dust cloud that originated in northwest China drifted across the continental United States and lingered over Denver and other areas, at times obscuring views of the Rocky Mountains.

It isn't the first time a giant dust cloud from east Asia has reached the United States. But concerned observers say the vast sweep and the density of this latest one suggests that northwest China's once-fruitful agricultural land is eroding at an alarming rate, becoming useless desert.
Source: National Geographic

-The Atlantic


You might find it hard to believe that dust clouds from the African Sahara can travel thousands of miles across the Atlantic Ocean, but it does every year and in large quantities. In a recent study, Joseph Prospero, professor emeritus at the University of Miami Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science and collaborators at the University of Houston and Arizona State University found that the average air concentrations of inhalable particles more than doubled during a major Saharan dust intrusion in Houston, Texas.
Source: Science Daily

Another link on this with exhaustive detail for the African dust as well as possible links to pathogens and heavy metals for health hazard is “When the Dust Settles



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:19 AM
link   
The Weather which Unites – Rain!...And as Ordered!?

China is a busy place and it’s got things to do, records to achieve and most of all, people to feed and keep supplied with. . .water.

Water is the real substance that ties the world together in ocean and atmosphere. Water and it’s properties as it moves and changes temperature influence all aspects of weather on our planet. It’s a fine balance, as most things are in this area, but it’s a balance that has been getting help from man for quite some time now.


Not content to push the edge in cloning, architecture and geological engineering, China’s also leaving the rest of the world behind when it comes to controlling the weather. Chinese officials say cloud seeding has helped to relieve severe droughts and water shortages in cities. In Shanghai, officials are considering the measure to cool the daytime temperature, easing demand for electricity, reports Brandon Keim.

The Beijing Weather Modification Office is just one part of the National Weather Modification Office that manipulates the weather across the whole of the country. China’s weather engineering program is the largest in the world—1,500 weather modification experts, in charge of thirty aircraft and their crews, as well as 40,000 part-time workers—farmers in the main—who are there to man the 7,000 anti-aircraft guns and 5,000 rocket launchers to shell the clouds.


In China, this isn't an experiment or helpful thing done commercially by contract to some large farmers. It's on the scale of national action because it is, in fact, national policy. It's both amazing and sobering to see what one nation can do with resources when applied with real focus.


In China, some 560,000 manipulations of the weather have been conducted since 2002 using aircraft, rockets and projectiles carrying dry ice or silver iodide particles to stimulate rainfall, resulting with release of 490 billion tons of rain and saving about $10.4 billion in economic losses, the China Meteorological Association has reported.
Source: Canada Free Press

Of course, even in China, this doesn't always work out so well.


China has long tinkered with Mother Nature's waterworks, even establishing a state organ -- the Beijing Weather Modification Office -- whose sole purpose is to meddle with the weather. The purpose behind weather modification is less megalomaniacal than it sounds at first pass; a large swath of northeast China, including Beijing, has been mired in a drought for nearly a decade, and the party leadership would like to reverse that trend for both practical reasons and to show the Chinese people exactly who is in charge.


Oops? ..No.. That doesn't quite cover an accidental snowstorm. The degree of control China has achieved in their program is remarkable though.

I should include, China doesn’t corner the market, according to Popular Science on this, and mentioned elsewhere in the article is something that just brings the sun shining on one person, anyway.


Weather manipulation is actually not as rare as one might think. Currently, 24 countries practice some kind of cloud seeding Moscow’s mayor keeps the Russian Air Force on cloud seeding duty to make sure it never rains on his parades (literally).
China's Weather Manipulation Brings Crippling Snowstorm to Beijing

Also, it’s important to note China isn’t cheap with hoarding it’s abilities and lessons learned on weather modification. Heavens no… They are quite happy to spread the knowledge and expertise!


The International Training Course on Weather Modification, sponsored by China Meteorological Administration Training Centre (CMATC) starting from August 22 in Beijing came to a successful close. Seventeen international participants applied for the training course and finally twelve attended. All participants are in the field of weather modification, respectively from Indonesia (2), Pakistan (1), Philippines (1), Zimbabwe (1), Kenya (1), Ecuador (1), Nigeria (1), Mongolia (1), Kyrgyz Republic (1), Greece (1) and Hungary (1).


In addition to the nations attending that training course, they gave an overview of what it related to in training to do this back home.


The training contents involve: the microphysics of clouds and precipitation, the growth of warm clouds and mixed phase clouds, precipitation from warm clouds and cold clouds, weather modification around the world, experiments and operations on how to plan a cloud seeding project, 50 years of cloud seeding in Israel, history of flying laboratory on instruments & measurements, the radar as a main instrument in Weather Modification, cloud seeding evaluation, implementing a rain enhancement project abroad, pollution effects on clouds and precipitation, Chinese weather modification practice and achievements, including weather modification modelling, simulation, data processing, cloud seeding theory, field experiment, operation commanding, effect assessments etc.
Source China Meteorological Administration



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:20 AM
link   
The Weather That Unites – Climate Change Engineering?

Accuweather had an article run in 2013 that caught my eye to say the least. Its title alone is a bit of an attention grabber in the context of all else considered

US Climate Change Study Explores Weather Modification

"The project's main goal is to provide a technical evaluation of proposed geoengineering techniques such as carbon dioxide removal and solar radiation management, to determine what we know and don't know about their physical capabilities, technical feasibilities, known risks, and intended or unintended consequences," Rugani said.

Sounds reasonable and much like the IPCC report from the Peru conference done earlier under the UN. Explore options, determine methods and evaluate efficacy. Now, notice, I didn’t say ETHICACY, but efficacy. One refers to how effective something is and the other, whether it’s the right thing to do. I believe, in this case, what is ethical to the current government and what is ethical to citizens MAY just be a little different.


"Because global warming may impact the security of other countries and create problems for the U.S. government," Pike said. One national security benefit would be to prevent state failure in Africa, particularly in a nation such as Somalia, which has suffered through famine and a long-term civil war.

It also would be perfectly ethical for the U.S. government to use weather modification to save lives and money, Pile said.

The U.S. study is expected to be finished in the fall of 2014.
Source: Accuweather.com

Now all this local and regional modification going on, across areas of over 40 nations by the numbers cited in the accuweather article, are not necessarily intended to be overlapping or carry influence outside the areas it’s being targeted to. Not by design.

I tend to buy that, in terms of intent.

However, to wrap up observations here, we have the clear connection between air, weather, and actual physical mass moving between the land masses. If you’ve checked out the sources and not merely the quotes taken (I could never legally quote all the important material that I’m linking to in material here, there is too much) then you’ve seen how sand in the Gobi comes to create coughing in Denver and how Sandstorms off the Sahara can likewise be felt and measured to Houston. We’ve also seen the sheer mass, scale and numbers involved in weather modification by name and action across China, as well as other nations around the world. (Israel cloud seeding for 50 years? My, hhat green crops they have..)

I suppose that only leaves one conclusion to draw up to this point in the OP……


Okay, you don’t have to watch all of that one. (smile)


edit on 5/28/2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:20 AM
link   

A Theory to Consider


The effort to get to here in the OP has been to establish the state of current and ongoing efforts at modifying the weather and as it’d come to be termed as well now as climate engineering (as termed in sources above..).

What I have noticed is a fairly simple thing in the end.

Anyone who has heard of the Butterfly Effect will know what I mean, but simply put, it’s that action begets reaction in a predictable yet sometimes distant and seemingly unrelated way.

Right now, the United States is enduring a long duration drought condition in a number of areas and it’s been this way for a good number of years. This isn’t entirely unexpected as historic patterns will show, but it isn’t entirely normal either, as endless and varied climate change articles as well as reputable papers will explain.







What I have come to wonder isn’t the need to counter things like the desertification of China by the Gobi Desert growing at alarming rates. Nor do I question the need for the same in Africa.

Desertification is the leading threat on a broad ecological basis and deserts are the fastest growing biome in the world today. In showing the coverage and measured increase in material moving between these deserts and land, I believe we can see both the threat and the impact.

One of the impacts from African dust which others online refer specifically to is Coral, and that is a scary thing. Coral support much more than colorful photographs and exciting dive opportunities. So, as the great deserts grow, so do problems. That’s a given and IF we can stop it by some behavior change (farming methods in China, for example), I’m all for it.

However, as the above material also indicated, these efforts are going on, without any mention of coordination or world controls that I saw indicated anywhere, in places all over the Earth. Some, actively running for as long as 50 years.

Has anyone thought to consider….just maybe here….the active modification of weather to remove water over one area of land and attempt to bring benefit, may have impact on another area of land which is not so well benefited by the first areas excess withdrawal? I’m just laying out a theory to consider, but could these myriad efforts to modify weather on a local and regional level somehow create elements of chaos in the system that weren't present before?

I wonder, are we not considering quite ALL the factors which may be present?

Might the deliberate and ongoing efforts actually be creating the problem they've been directed to solve?

When I started into this subject, I hadn't even known that active climate engineering and weather modification efforts dated back to the 1960’s and before. Now, as I've come to learn more, I've come to see and hopefully share a bit here, how much it’s been with us.

Butterflies and Tornadoes…..those are the things which come to mind.

DO the successful efforts to control and manipulate weather “upwind” of ourselves have dramatic impacts in ways not entirely foreseen or foreseeable?


I can say I haven’t found where it has been factored in or looked at to a great degree.

What I have seen is a seeming assumption that all efforts are local and those butterflies can’t be felt, much less butterflies all around the world at once. Flapping in different ways, without care or concern for each other.
edit on 5/28/2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:20 AM
link   

Points to Ponder


There are a few things worth looking at, with the thought of over 40 nations for up to 50 years modifying the weather in their own little part of the patch we all…ahem…share.

Water Vapor Transport


Global Precipitation Cycles


The drought looks bad when seen in still shots from certain years. Someone out there went to the trouble of animating it and it does have a new impact, I have to admit.

….and this is what it looks like in color with commentary.


I wouldn’t suggest the weather modification ongoing around the world is a direct cause to the extremes being seen in not only America but other large areas as well. Though I wonder how large a role it may well play.

I would ponder the question though…is it such a good idea, and with so much happening to modify weather, could we be Geoengineering our planet on a larger scale than we realize, intend or may soon be able to stop?



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:46 AM
link   
Bravo, Wrabbit! It kind of leads credence to population control theories, no?

Man is SO good at inventing new technology, but so poor at considering the long-term consequences before putting it into practice.

I don't think humanity is deserving or worthy of such a beautiful place as Mother Earth. One day, it will be returned to its' more respectful owners.
edit on 30000001010America/Chicago311 by nugget1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 01:19 PM
link   
Nice thread ....S&F

Personally, I think it is quite obvious that these programs have an impact in ways we can not foresee.

There has been lots of accusations that California cloud seeding has been partially responsible for the drought in Texas.

Now California has been in a small drought of it's own.

It's only logical to assume that pulling water out of the sky in one area means less potential rain for the areas beyond.

Definitely something to be concerned about. I hope they know what they're doing or at the very least be smart enough to stop doing it when the warning signs start blinking.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 03:12 PM
link   
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I am going to start here for now...




Of course, even in China, this doesn't always work out so well.


China has long tinkered with Mother Nature's waterworks, even establishing a state organ -- the Beijing Weather Modification Office -- whose sole purpose is to meddle with the weather. The purpose behind weather modification is less megalomaniacal than it sounds at first pass; a large swath of northeast China, including Beijing, has been mired in a drought for nearly a decade, and the party leadership would like to reverse that trend for both practical reasons and to show the Chinese people exactly who is in charge.


Oops? ..No.. That doesn't quite cover an accidental snowstorm. The degree of control China has achieved in their program is remarkable though.

I should include, China doesn’t corner the market, according to Popular Science on this, and mentioned elsewhere in the article is something that just brings the sun shining on one person, anyway.


Weather manipulation is actually not as rare as one might think. Currently, 24 countries practice some kind of cloud seeding Moscow’s mayor keeps the Russian Air Force on cloud seeding duty to make sure it never rains on his parades (literally).
China's Weather Manipulation Brings Crippling Snowstorm to Beijing
- See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


Might I ask a pretty simple question of you?

I noticed you left this out of your above post...


To do so, they've turned to cloud seeding, a controversial practice that involves launching (or dropping) chemicals into the atmosphere -- silver iodide in China, though dry ice and liquid propane also work -- that cause water vapor in the air to crystallize at temperatures it otherwise would not. Its effectiveness is dubious; while it's generally accepted that it works to some degree, it can only increase precipitation by 20 percent. Sometimes.


www.popsci.com...

Why, is that not a pretty substantial part of the article?



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 03:17 PM
link   
a reply to: nugget1




Bravo, Wrabbit! It kind of leads credence to population control theories, no?
- See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


No, because the population is only going up...




posted on May, 28 2014 @ 03:34 PM
link   
a reply to: MagicWand67




There has been lots of accusations that California cloud seeding has been partially responsible for the drought in Texas. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


You don't believe that do you?


No. Cloud seeding may change individual clouds or groups of clouds, but weather patterns are determined by large-scale atmospheric conditions which cloud seeding cannot affect.


www.nawmc.org...'s

For some reason I can't get the link to go where I need, so just follow the link and click on FAQ's.

Sorry about that...



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 04:50 PM
link   
What is/was "weather engineering"?? This is the first time I have heard the term.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 05:02 PM
link   
a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul




What is/was "weather engineering"?? This is the first time I have heard the term. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


Their just getting low on conspiracy names, and have to put some things together.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 06:20 PM
link   
a reply to: MagicWand67


It's only logical to assume that pulling water out of the sky in one area means less potential rain for the areas beyond.

Definitely something to be concerned about. I hope they know what they're doing or at the very least be smart enough to stop doing it when the warning signs start blinking.


I believe that's the biggest concern I came away from it with. A sense that there is no coordination. The local/regional efforts and pretty much anything internal within a nation's borders that isn't military or offensive in nature would seem to be okay under past treaties, and that's sure something that's been run with.

What do you think the odds are that China coordinates with Israel or that either of them care or think to coordinate with anyone else? They do for education, as the one link in the OP shows, but beyond that? Hmm...

I did see some material discussing future efforts to have a global registry of efforts or even control of some form to address that very issue. Since it's happening in these nations anyway, I'd personally say coordination would be very well worth the efforts. Lack of it, as you also note, is the most worrisome for things going badly.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 07:23 PM
link   
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Evenin',

Like...wow.
You have given me weeks worth of reading and research material to go through here.
You have certainly given me new food for thought.
Thank you for posting this.

-Peace-


edit on 28-5-2014 by Eryiedes because: Correction After A More Detailed Look



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:26 PM
link   
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Although I am not really know well about Geo-Engineering but Chinese is my first language .I am sure the Chinese society is very glad for the government being Geo-Engineering.

If I search this topic on the weibo (the Chinese" twitter "),it's very easy to see a weibo content like these :




We need more rain !The government have to do more artificial rainfall!





Artificial rain reduction can protect our crops .Why don't do it ?



Many of them complaint the government don't do more Geo-Engineering.

Chinese people love to conquering nature...

Don't know where to start study geo-engineering.
edit on 28-5-2014 by candlestick because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2014 @ 01:15 PM
link   
a reply to: candlestick

Thank you for stopping in on this and I appreciate your input. I recall from past posts that you're over somewhere in that part of the world, and so the personal perspectives and what is heard locally vs. what is heard in the U.S. or England, for example, is always interesting.

How widely and commonly discussed are the weather modification efforts in Asia? I was stunned to see the actual numbers for scale of the Chinese industry..for lack of any other appropriate word. Is that as much a topic of talk there as one might imagine it would be for the sheer level of resources devoted?

You mentioned what some average people get to saying and it's funny to hear it's polar opposite demands (Oh the web we weave when first we learn to......screw with weather. lol) but does that carry into regional media too?

edit on 5/29/2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2014 @ 01:27 PM
link   
a reply to: Wrabbit2000

From my experience, media newstories about cloud seeding are quite common in India, China and SE Asia - I've also seen a few stories where concern has been expressed that an ongoing drought in one country is being caused by increased cloud seeding in an adjacent one (though without any scientific input or explanation).

My impression is that 'ordinary people' know and accept it happens, believe it works (probably because the media implies it does), and expect the authorities to undertake it when there is a lack of rain. Whether it does work or not is a different matter .....



posted on May, 29 2014 @ 01:33 PM
link   
And I am pretty sure that there is little or no coordination between different countries on cloud seeding (just as there seems to be little coordination between different authorities and ski centers when it comes to cloud seeding in the US. Basically everyone does there own thing when and where they think fit, with little or no regard to whether the same storm system might also be being seeded by someone else, or, indeed, whether - if it works - seeding clouds over their country means less moisture in them when they pass over their neighbours.

But

Personally, I think tropical deforestation is a far, far bigger issue when it comes to global rainfall patterns. See, for example: www.nasa.gov...



posted on May, 29 2014 @ 08:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
I recall from past posts that you're over somewhere in that part of the world, and so the personal perspectives and what is heard locally vs. what is heard in the U.S. or England, for example, is always interesting.

Didn't see you say hello before...

I found it's strange that why you folks think geo engineering is a conspiracy ,it's very normal and common in China.They usually call it to be "artificial rainfall".They had artificial snowfall also.(Using silver iodide and dry ice)




How widely and commonly discussed are the weather modification efforts in Asia?


I know China only.The government often glorify the geo engineering behavior in China MSM,so everyone know it many years.Why you folks such fuss about it?




I was stunned to see the actual numbers for scale of the Chinese industry..


Nothing is glorious,just a place with people don't care the environmental protection mostly.




Is that as much a topic of talk there as one might imagine it would be for the sheer level of resources devoted?


Yeah.



but does that carry into regional media too?

Sure.


originally posted by: AndyMayhew

From my experience, media newstories about cloud seeding are quite common in India, China and SE Asia - I've also seen a few stories where concern has been expressed that an ongoing drought in one country is being caused by increased cloud seeding in an adjacent one (though without any scientific input or explanation).

My impression is that 'ordinary people' know and accept it happens, believe it works (probably because the media implies it does), and expect the authorities to undertake it when there is a lack of rain. Whether it does work or not is a different matter .....


是啊(Yeah),some of them(Chinese) thought cloud seeding may "Robbed" the water from another country ,lead to drought in neighboring countries,usually the response of them is :



ROB ALL OF THEIR WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


edit on 29-5-2014 by candlestick because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
13
<<   2 >>

log in

join