What is evolution, not what some think

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: Box of Rain
Can't you even give me a brief synopsis of the issues you have with the Theory of Evolution?

It contradicts literal the interpretation of Genesis. That's it.

If that's his reason, then it's not good enough for this discussion board.

I could say I don't believe in the Biblical creation "simply because it contradicts the Theory of Evolution...Period.", but that would not be a good enough reason to not believe in creation, either. Discussions on this board usually go beyond simply saying "because it's my personal belief"; usually the discussions on ATS include WHY people hold those personal beliefs (i.e., evidence supporting those beliefs).

I'm not saying it is wrong for a person to believe in biblical creation over evolution. However, if that person is going to make an ATS thread stating that evolution is wrong, then I expect to see some evidence telling me why it's wrong. I don't mind discussing why a person may believe in creation over evolution, but there needs to be fodder for that discussion.

You replied to another persons opinion of my argument and in truth its ludicrous, it has no other purpose than to belittle my beliefs or non beliefs.

If you really want to know, read the thread.
I am not here to argue or give you fodder.


and I never said evolution was wrong, though I think it is, I said it doesnt have enough evidence for me to accept it. This just gets crazy with the amount of stuff you imply I say or believe, its childish to a degree.


The discussion is. I dont think evolution has enough evidence and I cant accept it. can any secularists accept that statement.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: borntowatch

How the holy he** do you get humans coexisting with dinosaurs out of early primates the size of chipmunks and squirrels coming into existence 80 MYA ? That's one of the largest stretches of reality I've seen in this thread and that's saying a lot.

Its a stretch only in so much as they were out by so much in the original guess.

They redefined it because their figures were so wrong.

What if they redefine it again and again and again as new evidence comes to the surface.
If they can be so wrong the first time, why not a second.

Yes I know that just doesnt fit your theory, I know thats unimaginable, but.....

Nowhere in that article does it say that they ever thought humans and dinosaurs coexisted, nor does it even imply that.

As the standard understanding of the origins of humans goes, our species of Modern Humans is only 250,000 years old. Human-ancestor primates that looked anything close to humans lived maybe 3 million years ago. The article you posted was talking about a common early primate ancestor that may have lived 80 million years ago -- toward the end of the dinosaur era.

80 million years is a long time ago, and the primates in question were not at all human-like.

originally posted by: borntowatch
The discussion is. I dont think evolution has enough evidence and I cant accept it. can any secularists accept that statement.

I accept that opinion as your opinion, but it is wrong because there is tons of evidence and you have ignored it in favor of biblical literalism. You just admitted that you believe dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together, something completely baseless with no evidence whatsoever. Why have humans NEVER been found in the same layer as a dinosaur? If they lived together, it would be a common occurrence, but it's not.

So basically you disbelieve biological evolution because 5 unrelated things (forms of evolution as you call them) cannot be proven 100%, yet you believe man walked with dinosaurs without any evidence whatsoever on a complete whim. So in other words, you are a hypocrite when it comes to standards of belief in anything. Might as well end the thread here. If physical tangible evidence is not enough to convince you, nothing will and you will continue to live with double standards your entire life. Enjoy, Mr Preacher. I'll just keep denying your ignorance.

originally posted by: borntowatch



The discussion is. I dont think evolution has enough evidence and I cant accept it. can any secularists accept that statement.

What a hypocrite.

You can't accept the evidence of evolution but you believe in stories that have no evidence whatsoever. How do you not see the irony in that?

Just admit that it has nothing to do with evidence so everyone else will stop wasting their time trying to show you that evidence does exist.

You have faith that the TOE is bogus just as strongly as you have faith that the young-earth creation story is valid. Evidence be damned.

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: borntowatch
The discussion is. I dont think evolution has enough evidence and I cant accept it. can any secularists accept that statement.

What a hypocrite.

You can't accept the evidence of evolution but you believe in stories that have no evidence whatsoever. How do you not see the irony in that?

Just admit that it has nothing to do with evidence so everyone else will stop wasting their time trying to show you that evidence does exist.

You have faith that the TOE is bogus just as strongly as you have faith that the young-earth creation story is valid. Evidence be damned.

Yeah, ok I can accept that.

but the issue is science has to prove beyond doubt, it hasnt done that.
I dont think you having faith in science is ant different to me having faith in God
I dont think you denying God is any different from me denying science.

a reply to: borntowatch

The only thing that doesn't fit "my" theory is your constant misrepresentations of modern evolutionary synthesis as a whole and what is actually presented and taught as a part of that theory by professional researchers in various fields. You continue to make comments referring to current data and information as guesses when I'm pretty sure even you know how disingenuous such statements are. It's not guess work, everything presented is the most recent data based on the most recent research and information we currently have. Updating what is presented with new information when it becomes available means that science is not stagnant and continues to strive onwards having the best, most up to date information possible in contrast to at least the Abrahamic religions which are based on the fancies of an elite Bronze Age literate priest class and in the case if Chrisianity, one slight update to the original approximately 1700 years ago and has remained fairly stagnant overall, at least in regards to teachings and the basis since the time of Constantine with some recent "renovations" in regards to the American Evangelical movement and their reinterpretation of scripture. Islam has likewise been pretty stagnant for 1400 years. The world views have not changed not have any of the scriptures. Adaptability is not an aspect of nor a hallmark of the devoutly religious mindset yet you cling to it as if it's the greatest truth ever despite not actually addressing science against it. I'm still waiting for you to gloss over the ad hominem attack and actually address some of it such as the actual impossibility of the flood as I pointed out earlier. Since scientific rebuttals go right over your head and you just claim it doesn't make sense to you so you don't hieve it thus it must be wrong in the throes of a bout of cognitive dissonance, perhaps something simpler like a picture will illustrate a point so that you can get it. The distinct impression you give everyone that you've responded to is essentially this-

originally posted by: Barcs
So basically you disbelieve biological evolution because 5 unrelated things (forms of evolution as you call them) cannot be proven 100%, yet you believe man walked with dinosaurs without any evidence whatsoever on a complete whim. So in other words, you are a hypocrite when it comes to standards of belief in anything. Might as well end the thread here. If physical tangible evidence is not enough to convince you, nothing will and you will continue to live with double standards your entire life. Enjoy, Mr Preacher. I'll just keep denying your ignorance.

You say they are unrelated, I dont. I am not subject to your beliefs no more than you are mine.

You say there is no evidence of man and dinosaurs, I see heaps. Go view the crypto boards for awhile
or this s8int.com...

You can keep denying anything you want, enjoy

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: borntowatch

The only thing that doesn't fit "my" theory is your constant misrepresentations of modern evolutionary synthesis as a whole and what is actually presented and taught as a part of that theory by professional researchers in various fields.

Well isnt that just to bad, please dont lose any sleep over it.
It really wont change your life that much.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: borntowatch
The discussion is. I dont think evolution has enough evidence and I cant accept it. can any secularists accept that statement.

What a hypocrite.

You can't accept the evidence of evolution but you believe in stories that have no evidence whatsoever. How do you not see the irony in that?

Just admit that it has nothing to do with evidence so everyone else will stop wasting their time trying to show you that evidence does exist.

You have faith that the TOE is bogus just as strongly as you have faith that the young-earth creation story is valid. Evidence be damned.

Yeah, ok I can accept that.

but the issue is science has to prove beyond doubt, it hasnt done that.
I dont think you having faith in science is ant different to me having faith in God
I dont think you denying God is any different from me denying science.

I don't deny god. That's your perception of the issue because you want this to be a "science vs god" battle.

This is an ignorance vs education battle and you've clearly lost. Science doesn't seek to prove anything beyond doubt. Science seeks to understand the world by figuring out natural processes. The concept of "prove beyond doubt" is for mystics and charlatans. The fact that you reference cryptozoology as evidence of anything shows that you are more interested in flights of fancy than understanding reality and further proves that you'll go to great lengths to justify your position.

a reply to: Answer

you just helped me realize that proving anything beyond a doubt is impossible because only the person with the doubts can get rid of them. if the person doesnt want to stop doubting, they wont. not even if what they doubt is actual fact.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Answer

you just helped me realize that proving anything beyond a doubt is impossible because only the person with the doubts can get rid of them. if the person doesnt want to stop doubting, they wont. not even if what they doubt is actual fact.

Bingo. This is why everyone is wasting their time presenting evidence to borntowatch.

No amount of evidence will satisfy his self-inflicted doubts about science. No matter how clear the evidence is, he will manifest his own reasons to doubt it.

This isn't a problem with understanding, it's a problem with willingness to understand. Anyone who believes the young-earth creation story has accepted that evidence is irrelevant to their belief structure.

a reply to: borntowatch

So that's a big "No, I'm actually not going to attempt to discuss the absolute impossibility of an alleged pre flood earth as a result of the atmosphere that would have had to have existed in order to support what Genesis says and I parrot without bothering with things like due diligence so instead I'll make snarky trollish comments from my throne room in the land of smug where I'll look ridiculous but not foolish".

Good to know, not that it wasn't already apparent but it passes the time on the monorail so what the heck, I'll take your posts about as seriously as you do which reduces your entire thread as well as your contributions to it, down to idle contempt and mockery. Don't worry, I'm not losing a wink of sleep over the inanity of this. The more people who buy into what you're selling, the more spots that are open when my kids apply to schools in a few years so they can study with people who care about what they're learning under people who care about what they're teaching. So keep up the good work for at least the next 6 years and thanks in advance in case they choose a school they won't have legacy access to.

originally posted by: Answer


Bingo. This is why everyone is wasting their time presenting evidence to borntowatch.

No amount of evidence will satisfy his self-inflicted doubts about science. No matter how clear the evidence is, he will manifest his own reasons to doubt it.

This isn't a problem with understanding, it's a problem with willingness to understand. Anyone who believes the young-earth creation story has accepted that evidence is irrelevant to their belief structure.

Bingo. This is why everyone is wasting their time presenting evidence to me, the evidence does not sway my belief that it is sound enough to believe.
Guess we will wait for more evidence to arise, or not

You can say what you like, the evidence does not prove evolution in my opinion.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: borntowatch

So that's a big "No, I'm actually not going to attempt to discuss the absolute impossibility of an alleged pre flood earth as a result of the atmosphere that would have had to have existed in order to support what Genesis says and I parrot without bothering with things like due diligence so instead I'll make snarky trollish comments from my throne room in the land of smug where I'll look ridiculous but not foolish".

Well please dont feel compelled, its of no interest to me to listen to a compelled argument.
A statement addressing my issues, asking for proof was never asked, though would never be rebuked.

Though I dont really understand your comments to offer more.

originally posted by: borntowatch
You say there is no evidence of man and dinosaurs, I see heaps. Go view the crypto boards for awhile
or this s8int.com...

You can keep denying anything you want, enjoy

10 to 1 odds says you can't find a legitimate scientific study that claims that. Funny how the best "evidence" they have are grainy black and white pictures that do not prove anything. So again, you hold evolution and all natural processes under extreme scrutiny yet believe dinosaurs walked with man based on a few grainy pictures on a Christian creationist website and folklore. Keep those double standards alive! I'll keep calling you out on them.

You say they are unrelated, I dont. I am not subject to your beliefs no more than you are mine.

Those "forms of evolution" aren't related in the least. If you are claiming they are, then you need to show how and why. Please explain the similarities between the process of evolution and the formation of a planet. Please explain the similarities between the process of evolution and the origin of complex elements. Show me how genetic mutations influence either one and how natural selection applies. Show how any of these processes goes against biological evolution if proven wrong. Oh wait, you can't and won't, because you don't understand a single one of those processes and think evolution is a magical all encompassing process that affects everything. Intellectual dishonesty, nothing more. Admit this hypocrisy and I won't post in this thread again.

Guess we will wait for more evidence to arise, or not

I will because I enjoy the subject matter. You won't. You'll dismiss it regardless of accuracy. God himself could take you back to the past and show you exactly how evolution works, and you still wouldn't believe it. The bottom line is that you don't believe in god. You believe in an ancient story book. For all you know the bible could be a work of Satan created to keep humanity in the dark and in fear of scientific progression and knowledge and you blindly believe it over actual science.

Nobody cares about your personal faith. We care about you spreading lies about science, which is all this thread essentially is; slander and libel against a field of science that is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. We get your point. You don't care about evidence. Good thing you aren't qualified to make that determination for us or society. People like you are a problem to this country. You would rather have us living back in the dark ages, where scientific knowledge and discovery was discouraged/suppressed unless it agreed exactly with the bible, where non believers were executed for questioning a story book with no proof whatsoever of its accuracy and public executions were the norm. Sigh.

originally posted by: Barcs


Nobody cares about your personal faith. We care about you spreading lies about science, which is all this thread essentially is; slander and libel against a field of science that is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. We get your point. You don't care about evidence. Good thing you aren't qualified to make that determination for us or society.People like you are a problem to this country. You would rather have us living back in the dark ages, where scientific knowledge and discovery was discouraged/suppressed unless it agreed exactly with the bible, where non believers were executed for questioning a story book with no proof whatsoever of its accuracy and public executions were the norm. Sigh.

It always baffles me when people such as the OP make hypocritical accusations against science in general and then try to debunk evolution in particular without actually understanding it at even an elementary school level yet hold so tightly to their book of Bronze Age fables that they cut off all circulation in their fingers.

It would almost be funny if it weren't for the fact that it's an extreme testament to the failings of our education system that people in this day and age are so willing and eager to ignore anything science based that clashes with personal faith no matter how much legitimate evidence there is in favor of the science and the utter void of supporting data in favor of biblical interpretations.

Borntowatch even admits in their reply to me that they wouldn't bother trying to discuss the absolute impossibility of a world wide flood event because they know they will be destroyed by facts.Lets be honest, why bother to do some research and dispute the facts of the matter when it's so much easier to ignore the matter entirely than it is to admit that the infallible bible is actually quite fallible as it is the written word of men not the sublime messages from a god who's favorite course of action is wanton death and destruction as opposed to using its omnipotence to just will the questionable activities out of existence. Fr such an all knowing all powerful deity, god certainly has very little imagination or outside the box critical thinking skills because it just uses the greedy selfish constructs of its followers in order to accomplish all that death and destruction. Heck, the flood was just ago arises from Mesopotamia so that god isn't just kind of dumb, it's a plagiarist to boot. Pretty sad.

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: Answer


Bingo. This is why everyone is wasting their time presenting evidence to borntowatch.

No amount of evidence will satisfy his self-inflicted doubts about science. No matter how clear the evidence is, he will manifest his own reasons to doubt it.

This isn't a problem with understanding, it's a problem with willingness to understand. Anyone who believes the young-earth creation story has accepted that evidence is irrelevant to their belief structure.

Bingo. This is why everyone is wasting their time presenting evidence to me, the evidence does not sway my belief that it is sound enough to believe.
Guess we will wait for more evidence to arise, or not

You can say what you like, the evidence does not prove evolution in my opinion.

My point was that no evidence will ever be good enough because of your decision to deny it.

No matter what is presented, you will never believe in the process of biological evolution. Just admit that and stop acting like if only there was stronger evidence, you might be convinced because THAT is what keeps this thread going. This has nothing to do with the evidence and everything to do with your unwillingness to accept what's presented.

originally posted by: Answer


No matter what is presented, you will never believe in the process of biological evolution. Just admit that and stop acting like if only there was stronger evidence, you might be convinced because THAT is what keeps this thread going. This has nothing to do with the evidence and everything to do with your unwillingness to accept what's presented.

No you are not dictating your truth at me

I could and would accept evolution, my God is bigger than your mind could imagine.
I have said it again and will repeat what I have said to show the shallowness of your argument

I know God fearing Christians who accept evolution, call them brothers in Christ.
If they can be Christians and accept evolution, why would I be any different.

Your assumptions are based on your own bitterness, sorry.
I dont see enough evidence.

originally posted by: peter vlar


Borntowatch even admits in their reply to me that they wouldn't bother trying to discuss the absolute impossibility of a world wide flood event because they know they will be destroyed by facts.

Start a thread and we can play.
I would expect a few more manners from you though

You talk it up, can you back it up.

oh and I am a he, not a they. Just one person

a reply to: borntowatch

I know God fearing Christians who accept evolution, call them brothers in Christ.
If they can be Christians and accept evolution, why would I be any different.

because at some point, if what you believe is wrong and it is consistently demonstrated, you must either make a compromise or look exponentially more foolish as time goes on.