A fight, a fight, a Muslim and a White

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: OpinionatedB

for many Christians the Muslim conquests were just yesterday also.

For many Christians in the Middle East, it isn't only yesterday, it is today also.

Don't forget for a moment that it works exactly the opposite way. The war in Bosnia turned into Muslim ethnic cleansing.

Umm, just stopping by to point out that many Muslims who are Arabic are technically white--they are Caucasian just as much as a so-called "white person" is. Ergo, your opener is flawed from the start. Outside of that, I agree that, if the Crusades were responsible for the dislike between the two ethnic groups, it'd be pretty silly and primitive. However, from what I can tell, a lot of the disgust towards the US and the UK in particular has something to do with our role in the formation of the state of Israel. During the planning for Palestine as a split state, apparently the complaint is that the Jewish leadership in the country was given an opportunity to speak but not the Arabic.

en.wikipedia.org...

That action basically precipitated the Palestinian Exodus, or basically the forced eviction of Arabic families from their homes. Toss in that most of the countries surrounding Israel did not support what was done at all and you have recipe for disaster that is far more current than any Crusade.

originally posted by: rockn82

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: OpinionatedB

for many Christians the Muslim conquests were just yesterday also.

For many Christians in the Middle East, it isn't only yesterday, it is today also.

Don't forget for a moment that it works exactly the opposite way. The war in Bosnia turned into Muslim ethnic cleansing.

I am aware. There is plenty of Christian on Muslim violence in Africa.
The poster I was responding to didn't seem to be aware that there is continuing Muslim on Christian violence though.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
There have been some very interesting books about the history of Islam in the Middle East out recently. What you have to remember is that there is a bafflement amongst many Islamic scholars as to how the previously backwards Christian parts of Europe suddenly became so strong. Before anyone starts to object we WERE backwards and there's no point in denying it. Algebra came from the Muslim world, some of the best doctors and surgeons came from the Islamic world, much of our philosophy was influenced by it. Ottoman armies almost captured Vienna twice. And then all of a sudden they stagnated and the West overtook them.
This is a very complicated subject, but I think that part of it might be the fact that the West had the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation, and the East didn't.

Pretty much, the West went through a cultural/scientific revolution after the conclusion of the Crusades. The East didn't, and when the West showed back up in WWI with gunboats...well, the rest is history.

It's a very sore subject among the middle east folks I've talked to. They know how vastly superior their culture was before the Crusades.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
There have been some very interesting books about the history of Islam in the Middle East out recently. What you have to remember is that there is a bafflement amongst many Islamic scholars as to how the previously backwards Christian parts of Europe suddenly became so strong. Before anyone starts to object we WERE backwards and there's no point in denying it. Algebra came from the Muslim world, some of the best doctors and surgeons came from the Islamic world, much of our philosophy was influenced by it. Ottoman armies almost captured Vienna twice. And then all of a sudden they stagnated and the West overtook them.
This is a very complicated subject, but I think that part of it might be the fact that the West had the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation, and the East didn't.

Pretty much, the West went through a cultural/scientific revolution after the conclusion of the Crusades. The East didn't, and when the West showed back up in WWI with gunboats...well, the rest is history.

It's a very sore subject among the middle east folks I've talked to. They know how vastly superior their culture was before the Crusades.

Exactly - they really don't understand how the West overtook them so suddenly. When Napoleon suddenly appeared in Egypt with an army that utterly slaughtered anyone who dared to fight, it was a shock, but a brief one because he wasn't there for very long thanks to Nelson. There are some arguments that the Sack of Baghdad by the Mongols in 1258 caused critical damage to the forward-thinking and open nature of Islam at that time (the Torah was written in Iraq) - but there are other arguments that the shadows were falling even before the Sack. It's complicated, like a I said.

a reply to: samsamm9

May I ask you what your own views on Saudi Arabia and if the leaders of Saud are controlling the current clergy off Sunni Islam?

And also want to know what language you read the quran in and if you feel English translations are doing it justice or is miss guiding people?

I have tried reading it a couple of times but it always seems spiritually miss guiding me but it can be the translations that are off. But then I am not 100% a fan of all in the bible either and the miss translations I find in it. I myself believe in something more and also have my own proof for myself of it.

There are a few points I would like to add to the discussion.

A.) In the first few centuries of Islam there was an actual rationalist Muslim movement. Through wars, power, and corruption, the present Salafi teachings are less liberal, rational, and philosophical then schools of thought that existed in the first few centuries of Islam.

B.) There was much political strife and war in the Middle East, including so called barbarian invasions. The Mongols completely decimated Baghdad in 1258 for instance.

C.) There is a bit of an anti-evolutionary problem if you keep sending your brightest, most literate, most learned men into battle as was common for instance in muslims parts of Africa during the time of the Atlantic slave trade. Your brightest, most literate population ends up dead or in chains.

D.) There is currently a deep struggle between more mystical-philosophical branches of Islam and the conservative branches that hold power that is absolutely, completely ignored by Western media, that gives the impression that only the most conservative and backwards form of Islam exists. See the link below that talks of the millions of Sufis in Iran who are being persecuted horrendously as they stand with students against practices such as stoning. www.gatestoneinstitute.org...

E.) There is a debate about stoning where some scholars say that since it is not in the Qu-ran, and the Hadith about it might have been made up, it should be outlawed and seen as inauthentic. Why don't Christians, people of other faiths or of no faith, regardless of what inner fantasies they may have of Muhammad being some evil demon, help these people by standing with them on their progressive interpretation versus condemning Islam in the worst terms, deeming it incapable of reformation, and hoping that instead somehow a billion people will convert to Christianity overnight to make the world a better place?

F.) The Western Media seems to have absolutely no interest in promoting the valiant efforts of Muslims to reform their religion along humanitarian ideals. These people are dying in the Middle East trying to make the world a better place and are utterly being ignored.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: samsamm9

May I ask you what your own views on Saudi Arabia and if the leaders of Saud are controlling the current clergy off Sunni Islam?

And also want to know what language you read the quran in and if you feel English translations are doing it justice or is miss guiding people?

I have tried reading it a couple of times but it always seems spiritually miss guiding me but it can be the translations that are off. But then I am not 100% a fan of all in the bible either and the miss translations I find in it. I myself believe in something more and also have my own proof for myself of it.

My opinion is that Wahhabi Islam is a corrupt invention of the Saud/Wahab. Just like the cancer of Zionism, it was created by the west.

I read it in English and French. But just like anybody who reads sacred texts, I also look for help( ex: Sufism ) in the interpretation of certain verses which are more complex for me to understand.

originally posted by: samsamm9

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: samsamm9

May I ask you what your own views on Saudi Arabia and if the leaders of Saud are controlling the current clergy off Sunni Islam?

And also want to know what language you read the quran in and if you feel English translations are doing it justice or is miss guiding people?

I have tried reading it a couple of times but it always seems spiritually miss guiding me but it can be the translations that are off. But then I am not 100% a fan of all in the bible either and the miss translations I find in it. I myself believe in something more and also have my own proof for myself of it.

My opinion is that Wahhabi Islam is a corrupt invention of the Saud/Wahab. Just like the cancer of Zionism, it was created by the west.

I read it in English and French. But just like anybody who reads sacred texts, I also look for help( ex: Sufism ) in the interpretation of certain verses which are more complex for me to understand.

Funny how equal our thoughts are on Wahhabi.

Being Sufi. Reading Rumi. . I might not understand Islam and Muhammad yet but Rumi I can relate to as a soul brother. Beautiful blessed Rumi.

Thank you for your answers.

originally posted by: samsamm9
a reply to: HanzHenry
Are you saying you wouldn't mind killing all Muslims ? So you're saying you'd like to take out my mom, my children... ??
Seriously ?!? Sick f*##

I take this a serious threat.
Be careful what you say drone.

subjugating women to second class citizens? dont deserve to live imo.
stonings? dark age savage behavior
honor rapes? for other muslims to not stop it says ALOT.

The book of Islam is violent and calls for killing all non-muslims. can you deny this?

originally posted by: HanzHenry

originally posted by: samsamm9
a reply to: HanzHenry
Are you saying you wouldn't mind killing all Muslims ? So you're saying you'd like to take out my mom, my children... ??
Seriously ?!? Sick f*##

I take this a serious threat.
Be careful what you say drone.

subjugating women to second class citizens? dont deserve to live imo.
stonings? dark age savage behavior
honor rapes? for other muslims to not stop it says ALOT.

The book of Islam is violent and calls for killing all non-muslims. can you deny this?

Do you have a Phd in theology ? Most definitely !

Ok drone....
Islam gave rights to women in a time when there was none: inheritance rights, divorce rights, owning a business rights. All that while Christianity or Judaism DID NOT.

Stoning women is a judeo/Christian thing,
In islam stoning is for men and women.

You sound way more violent than anybody I know. Funny heh ?

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: rockn82

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: OpinionatedB

for many Christians the Muslim conquests were just yesterday also.

For many Christians in the Middle East, it isn't only yesterday, it is today also.

Don't forget for a moment that it works exactly the opposite way. The war in Bosnia turned into Muslim ethnic cleansing.

I am aware. There is plenty of Christian on Muslim violence in Africa.
The poster I was responding to didn't seem to be aware that there is continuing Muslim on Christian violence though.

I am very aware that the United States government also supports the extremists who do such things as well. The Muslims who do not want to see the Christians hurt are virtually ignored by you all while your government shovels money at the extremists in order to perpetuate more of that violence.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: samsamm9

originally posted by: HanzHenry

originally posted by: samsamm9
a reply to: HanzHenry
Are you saying you wouldn't mind killing all Muslims ? So you're saying you'd like to take out my mom, my children... ??
Seriously ?!? Sick f*##

I take this a serious threat.
Be careful what you say drone.

subjugating women to second class citizens? dont deserve to live imo.
stonings? dark age savage behavior
honor rapes? for other muslims to not stop it says ALOT.

The book of Islam is violent and calls for killing all non-muslims. can you deny this?

Do you have a Phd in theology ? Most definitely !

Ok drone....
Islam gave rights to women in a time when there was none: inheritance rights, divorce rights, owning a business rights. All that while Christianity or Judaism DID NOT.

Stoning women is a judeo/Christian thing,
In islam stoning is for men and women.

You sound way more violent than anybody I know. Funny heh ?

you have side stepped EVERY question trying to play with words.

Are women second class citizens for muslims? YES
Do muslims STILL stone people? YES
DO muslims commit near 100% of 'honor' rapes? YES
does the book of Islam call for KILLING all non-muslims? YES

Google search----> Muslim Thursday and educate YOURSELF.. drone (as you keep insulting me with)

a reply to: OpinionatedB

The Muslims who do not want to see the Christians hurt are virtually ignored by you all

That is the normal thing to do when something is NOT a problem, ignore it.

a reply to: HanzHenry

Ok drone, you basically threatened to kill all Muslims, why am I talking to you ?

You're a tool. Simple.

a reply to: nOraKat

Well you know how the first crusade was called when Celjic turks were attacking christian pilgrims on the way to the holy land and they were slitting open there belly's, tying there intestines to a tree and whiping the pilgrim around it so he/she would unravel there own insides and die, the pope in rome was so outraged he called for a holy war to liberate the holy land form the muslim invaders but of course it seen turned into taking land for wealth and power and religion as well as moral highground was soon lost but both sides are as guilty there, indeed it was not until the 17th century that the Turk slave raiders were curtailed from attacking europe and there is one greek island where there is a mound of skull's form 1908 when a turkish attack massacred the town's population in the church beheading them, there skull's are kept as a monument to them by the people of the island whom will never forget or forgive what happened that day and many many time's before.
There is a propensity to mistake this religious conflict for a racist one when it is not but racist will certainly use it to there advantage on both side's of the division.
Indeed many muslims are caucasian's and racism is prevalent within islam, ask about the Haaj muslim pilgrimage to mecca and the attitude taken to black muslim's by arabic muslim's whom would rather see them as eunuks and slaves, now that also is not ever arab muslim but a very high percentage of them but then of course study on racism is mainly made in the judeo-christian ethics based west and not in the different ethics of the islamic regions or indeed hindu regions of the world where racism or CAST is rife.

originally posted by: samsamm9
a reply to: HanzHenry

Ok drone, you basically threatened to kill all Muslims, why am I talking to you ?

You're a tool. Simple.

still scared to answer my questions? typical muslim response.

my questions are easy to answer. but you can't.

muslims are 'throwbacks' as Michael Savage says.

I am Jewish, we have prevailed Muslims for centuries. And we value women as equals.
Can you say the same for Islam? NOPE..

a reply to: HanzHenry

I know that this is a contentious subject, but please tone it down a bit.

a reply to: HanzHenry
I like your tone just fine.

originally posted by: HanzHenry

wouldn't mind taking them all out. dont care what else anyone has to say in defense of them.

Hitler said the same thing about Jews and look how that ended.... 60 million Jews died in the holocaust. Read a history book.