hasnt evolution been proven?

Originally posted by ninki
not realy seapeople, that is not evolution, just your own lame excuse for trying to grasp facts that are not there.the fosil record is not there, the new complex species evolving does not happen,and furthermore your so called evedence is just as strong as mine. what we both have is theory and faith. but in your case you better hope your right. we only get one shot...i was fairly new to this thread but now i see where talking to some of you realy can become like:bnghd:...i have better things to do with my time, and actually i am sure you do as well......i have clearly stated that the issues proposed here are both theorys ...it just makes you angry that someone dares to believe in a creator....i do not care ...how many people were saved in the flood? not the majority, thats for sure. the "facts" for both arguments are there for you to read ,but i think you might be much better off just sticking your head back where its dark and warm......

So much to teach you, so little time. Your born agains are really prone to lashing out when you are challenged. Tell me Ninki....have you ever taken an anti-biotic? I am not sure if they are in the bible...so you might not know what one is. An anti-biotic is an engineered or natural agent entered into the body that combats things like infections. I would like to look closely at it.

When you recieve an anti-biotic, you are instructed to take it for a period of time. Let us just say ten days for the sake of this discussion. You will be instructed to continue to take a certain dosage...even if the symptoms dissapear. Ninki, do you know why? How about I try to tell you....(even though you won't listen to something that can, and does occur on a regular basis). If you take an anti-biotic...it will kill the bacteria, often quite fast. Sometimes though, there are minor differences in the infection that may be harder for the antibiotic to kill. You are instructed to continue at a certain dosage for a certain time, so that you give yourself the best chance of eliminating the infection. If you stop ahead of time, before your time and dosage are through, some infection may be left. The problem is that this infection has a stronger resistance to the antibiotic that you took. This infection is the only infection left to reproduce in your body. Leaving you with the same infection reapearing....but immune to the previously taken antibiotic. This is scientific fact. It has happened, and is documented..... This is not a theory as a result.

IT IS EVOLUTION.

Now, go ahead back to telling me I am wrong. Let yourself be blind to reality.

Originally posted by ninki
not realy seapeople, that is not evolution, just your own lame excuse for trying to grasp facts that are not there.the fosil record is not there,

If you actually were to click the link I provided you would find it.. being ignorent of it doesn't negate it's existence.
Just because you keep you eyes slammed shut doesn't mean everything disapears.


Yeah I know I replied again.. I just don't like being asked to go to the trouble of providing facts only to have them dismissed without explanation.

IN FUTURE.. if you do not want to know facts that might threaten your beliefs.. don't waste people's time by requesting them when you have no intention of taking them seriously. Even if I went back in time and brang back a living specimen that proved evolution without a doubt.. you would have already made up you mind that it's wrong because the bible says so.
The difference between the theory of Adam and Eve and evolution:
The only record of Adam and Eve is heresay.. where as there are thousands of pieces of evidence to support evolution.. including DNA.. a theory is something that has no facts to back it up.
The bible on the other hand has a 'theory' based on a MYTH.. you can't pretend that it's just as credible as evolution when it has NO real evidence to support it.

thanks riley, that internet site you posted above was quite the read. i learnt a few things

it seems that a cat has got all the creationists tounges?

and it also seams that unless you will open your eyes your toung will beg for a drop of water in the end. i am done.

Originally posted by ninki
and it also seams that unless you will open your eyes your toung will beg for a drop of water in the end. i am done.

I really didn't want to reply yet again but.. I have actually faced the prospect my own death before. I ask that you please do not cast your own ill informed judgements on how I [or anyone else] will personally deal with it.. thats kind of creepy.

In saying that though this thread has denograted into a pointless flame war.. so I will try leave this with you on a nice note.

May the force be with you.
---

thanks riley, that internet site you posted above was quite the read. i learnt a few things

So have I.. problem is that thinking about the origins of life led me back into trying to figure out how the universe came into existence in the first place.. my brain is in thought paradox now.

[edit on 11-12-2004 by riley]

Isn't it weird how those "christian born agains" always seem to lash out with some insult as their final point? That seems like the christian thing to do........ I wonder how long they will wait for the rapture?

Originally posted by Seapeople
Isn't it weird how those "christian born agains" always seem to lash out with some insult as their final point? That seems like the christian thing to do........

It�s not the Christian thing to do it�s the human thing. I don�t think you should judge that member based on your anti-Christian perspective. I�m a Christian and try to live my life according to the bible, I�m also human and not above lashing out in frustration. How about you?


[edit on 11-12-2004 by Hurdy Gurdy]

I guess what I don't understand, and I've said this before in other threads, is why the theory of evolution is so threatening to some Christians. Ninki seems to have indicated that they've left the thread (sorry for the poor grammar there, I didn't want to get Ninki's gender wrong), but if someone else who has a similar belief can answer that for me I'd appreciate it very much.

Just to be clear, I'm not asking this as a leading question or anything. I've watched and participated in creationism v. evolution threads before and that's a question I've always wondered about. To put it a different way, what would it mean to you, theologically, if the world was older than the 6000-odd years that Young Earth Creationism believes? If you don't want to bring it up here, U2U me, it's something that I've never understood, and I think it's something that's caused most of the friction in such threads as this.

I'm proof of mankind evolving.
Here's why.

Modern man's jaw has shrunk,
thus wisdom teeth have to usually
be extracted because the jaw will
no longer accomodate them.
Our diets have changed to refined
and proccessed foods, thus the lesser
need to chew.
My dentists have confirmed through xrays
that I will never get wisdom teeth.
And as time goes on, perhaps less and less
human beings will develop wisdom teeth.

Here's a couple links about wisdom teeth
and evolution:

www.answersingenesis.org...

www.icr.org...

[edit on 12/11/04 by aWoman]

why do creationists believe that the earth is around 6000years old when scientists have carbon-dated all sorts of things, and without doubt finds that they are clearly older than 6000years?

Ninki, I hope that you read this, because I have given this a lot of thought. Unfortuneatly for you, shutting facts and figures out of your mind is common practice when something goes against your beliefs. Some people, including yourself, shut things out to such an extent that you fail to grasp that the very things you say, and support give credence to your disbeliefs.

You have mentioned "Giants" a few times in some of your posts. Now, there are many ways to look at this. First off, Genesis does not describe God making giant humans. God made man. Not big man and little man. That leaves room for 2 possibilities if you were to believe genesis were correct. Possibility 1, Adam and Eve were giants. Possibility 2, Adam and eve were people of normal size. PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW A) PEOPLE ALL BECAME SMALL, OR B), PEOPLE MANAGED TO TURN INTO GIANTS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, without evolution. Nowhere in the bible does it mention the creation of giants.

Another thought that I have had along these lines. If you are against evolution due to your christian beliefs, than you must believe God created Adam and Eve to start it all. If god created Adam and Eve, how can there be several different races of people, without evolution? Please explain.

Or how about this one. If Noah had to put a pair of every animal that was to survive a great flood on his boat, and his boat landed in any specific area when he was done, how are there billions of different species of animals now.....far too many to fit on an arc. And how are these several different species of animals on seperated continents? How are there so many varieties of dogs for example?

Now, this just brushes the surface of the consequences brought about by believing the bible word for word. Honestly, I challenge you to give me an answer for those questions. Ninki, it is up to you to change my mind, and the minds of those like me. According to your scripture, it is your job.

Originally posted by cheeser
why do creationists believe that the earth is around 6000years old when scientists have carbon-dated all sorts of things, and without doubt finds that they are clearly older than 6000years?

Carbon dating is flawed. They carbon dated volcanic rock in Hawaai which they already knew was only a few hundred years old and the carbon dating found it to be roughly 26 million years old. I don't believe the earth is 6000 years old but I certainly don't believe carbon dating is an effective tool when used to work out the age of things.

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
I certainly don't believe carbon dating is an effective tool when used to work out the age of things.

Carbon dating is an effective tool when used properly, but it's not the be-all-end-all of dating. If the object you're dating is too old, or too young, it fails with some pretty funny results. It does seem to hold up, though, when corroberating dating evidence is used (tomb inscriptions, for example, or tree-ring dating.)

That doesn't mean that it hasn't given bad results before, or that people have used it incorrectly, just that it's not inherently unreliable.

SEAPEOPLE...ok i will attempt to answer your questions..but would prefer to keep it civil..from both sides...i must start with
#1 carbon dating-try to carbon date a chicken bone what do you get? this method of dating is highly inconsistant.
#2 Genesis talks in chapter 6 verse 4 of the nephilim and the men of old, men of renown..NIV. The NLT says this.."in those days and even afterwards, when the evil beings from the spirit world were sexually involved with human women, their children became giants of whom so many legends are told". If you dont believe the bible then check out the book of Enoch..Enoch gives the full acount of giants on the earth in those days.
# 3 where did the races of men come from? god said that he created adam and eve....first....but it does not say that he did not create other races after them..it only re-counts their individual history..like all throughout the bible they follow the line of the messiah..but other people had lives and stories that we dont know about...when noah entered the ark, he took Ham ,Shem and Japeth..and their wives...their wives were possibly of ethnic backround...i was not there. when isaac had jacob and esau ,jacob was fair and esau was red or indian..god can do what he wants...the tower of babel comes into play here in the language aspect and the deviding of the nations.
# 4 i believe all land masses were connected before the flood...
# 5 it has been shown in some studys that if re constructed the ark could easily hold 2 of all pair, and that with much room to spare...
# 6 most every culture has a flood story in their tradition...most every culture has a story of great men whom evoked fear in the hearts of men in the days of old...
Last but not least,SEAPEOPLE it is my job to preach the gospel, not to fight with people who dont realy care what i think, and of course i get angry, i am human and i truly want people to have the truth in their lives..the biggest proof of god is his power in us to change our lives....but i choose to try my hat at explaining the faith i have in my creator....wanna talk?

ninki, just a couple things from your post that I wanted to address.

Originally posted by ninki
#1 carbon dating-try to carbon date a chicken bone what do you get? this method of dating is highly inconsistant.

Carbon 14 dating is, indeed, unreliable for items under 150 years old, and older than 50,000 years (roughly.) Geologically speaking, this is a narrow window so it's not a useful tool for everything. Ages of samples have been cross-verified multiple times using other dating methods such as historical accounts or using tree-ring or ice-core samples.

# 6 most every culture has a flood story in their tradition...

Most every culture, also, arose along the banks of a river, lake, sea or ocean. In such places floods are a common, and devastating, occurance, so it's not surprising that there are a lot of flood myths. It's important to note, though, that flood myths are far from universal.

most every culture has a story of great men whom evoked fear in the hearts of men in the days of old...

Most every kindergarten has a story of kids who evoked fear in the hearts of other kids. This does not imply supernatural origins to the bullies, though.

the biggest proof of god is his power in us to change our lives....but i choose to try my hat at explaining the faith i have in my creator....wanna talk?

This is very cool. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us. I know that we heathens can be a cantankerous and frustrating folk at times

The way I approach the evolution vs. creation debate is this: Science is a tool that can only be used to interpret the data we have. If the data is bad, or has been falsified (by God or Satan, or some other agency) science will come up with a bad result. This doesn't invalidate the method, it simply shows that it has limits. The theory of evolution is not intended to invalidate God (no matter how some of the clowns in the sciences may say it does), it's just a way to explain the evidence we have about the development of life on earth. Whether or not God created the entirety of existence in 144 hours, the evidence we have so far seen and interpreted don't support that.

In the end, science isn't a tool to describe or limit God. Science isn't nearly big enough. Nothing mankind can create will be big enough, God transcends limits, by definition. Trying to use science to define God is ultimately like trying to use calculus to describe words.

If you don't mind, though, ninki, could you address my question from the previous page of the thread? I'm honestly curious. Again, if you don't want to open up that can of worms here, U2Us are fine.

Ninki,

Have you ever heard of the samurai crab? It is also known as the Heike crab. It is a crab that has been talked about, and written about for a couple thousand years. It is very significant too. I'll tell you why.

To start this off, this crab was a popular food off the coast of Japan during the days of the warriors and such. It always had petruding markings on its back. Today, it still bears distinct markings on its back, but there is a little more to it. These markings show the distinct, petruding features of a samurai warrior. How is it that this happened?

Here is the true story behind it. Approximately 2000 years ago, there was a battle, and I wont go into details about that. I will say that the leader of the losing army made a vow with his wife not to be taken prisoner. As hard as this may seem to believe today, those men had honor in those days. When it was apparent that his army was to be lost, he walked out into the ocean, and layed back, drowning at sea.

So, today, these markings honestly resemble his face...on the crabs back...and im dead serious! Miracle? No. It's actually simple, and somewhat documented as to how this occured. The warriors of that time were respectful even to their enemies. When the fisherman would fish for crabs, rarely a crab would be caught bearing features that ressembled the face of a samurai. Out of respect, they were thrown back into the ocean (a legend was also born, that the leader of the army was walking at the bottom of the sea as crabs)

Now you know as well as I do Ninki, that they eat ALOT of seafood in Japan. What happened as a result is simple. All the crabs had markings. Just as your child has traits resembling you and the father ("a little of both"), I can guarantee that your child has unique traits of its own. Likewise, somewhere along the line, a completely random trait of the crab showed up. The crab ressembled its parents by having distinct markings, but had a distinct pattern, unique to itself. When the fisherman saw it, they threw it back into the water. It was left to mate and breed. Mythical stories started. Now people started to look for this special crab. When they would see one that had similar markings to the shape of a Japanese samurai soldier, they threw it back. The closer to that look the crab happened to be, the more likely it was to survive and BREED. Now, its offspring would carry traits from its parents too. The more like a samurai they looked. Over a thousand or so years, the patterns developed to what they are today. The patterns are so distinct however, that similar patterns that would emerge...that a 1000 years ago would have been thrown back into the water, now are kept and eaten because the standard has gradually raised.

The environemnt of the crab made it so that it was more likely for the crabs with that face (or markings like a face) on their back to survive. That trait was fortified over many years as a result. This is evolution. Go ahead, define evolution. Look it up in the dictionary, and then compare that definition to this story. Don't believe the story? Do a google search on the heike crab, or the samurai crab. Look at the pictures. Read the legends for yourself. Do the research on your own.

Side note: many times people have argued evolution with me. They often cite the principals of entropy, and disorder in physics as a reason evolution could not occur. (these are principals stating that everything will eventually reach a chaotic and random state) What baffles me is this. This principal of entropy, is an intrical component of evolution. Without the randomness involved with life, evolution could not occur. Without disorder, evolution could not exist.

[edit on 12/16/2004 by Seapeople]

Whiskey jack...i guess the answer to your question would be this..
Why is evolution a threat to christians? The answer is that satan uses bits of truth to mix up the mind, he swirls fact and fiction, ignorance and confusion are his playground. the fact is that science is, us trying to figure out gods power substance, how he did it....ya know the good old "god spoke and bang it happened" thats what we believe...i know that jesus is all powerful, i also know that when he says we must have faith like a child, he refers to the fact that our minds cannot take it all in...we cannot wrap it all around our little heads...we believe because he is god..he is faithful...and we love him.the proof of his power is made evedence all over the universe,yet evolutionists even though they have as much proof as creationists claim they have the fact...i say they have a theory..the offence comes when people start saying that the belief in god makes you somehow inferior to their mind.....SEAPEOPLE - i believe in evolution inside of a species...i do not believe in evolution outside of a species. God is a god of order, even in the laws of winding down there is order, the end of this present age will come, we know the end from the begining.

Originally posted by ninki
yet evolutionists even though they have as much proof as creationists

Evolutionist have as much proof as creationalists?!! Creationalists have NO scientific proof.. evolutionists have thousands of pieces of evidence to support it's argument. You can't compare the two.. by doing so you are negating all the hard work and research scientists [archeologists etc] have done over the centuries.

Riley-you realy do have your head in a bubble. i find talking to you very frustrating. creationits do have science to back them up,,,seriously just as much as evolutionist do. you just have to look it up, there are strong arguments for both sides...sorry but you dont win that easy in my book.