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Is this really faith in life?

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posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:15 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60


From ancient paganism, to modern Christianity; Satan has filled the religions of men with mockery/false symbolism.
OK, seems you admit to the doctrines of Christianity being tainted.
I guess my question should be, what makes you think that your take on it is demonic free?

What is actually required of God is the sacrifice of the self (my way of thinking, which is naturally in opposition to God's), which was perfectly exemplified by God sacrificing Himself (His son Jesus) physically, so we can learn to sacrifice ourselves spiritually (in the mind).
So then do you think the whole thing was just an object lesson with no real intrinsic meaning?


Thanks to everyone for great replies. This is now the discussion I was hoping to prompt when writing the thread.

Iosolomon, I agree with what you've written.
AferInfinity and IamaFungi are continuing to ask the questions I've asked, as well.

But this I've quoted above, between jmdewey60 and ElohimJD, exemplifies what I wrote the thread hoping more learned than me would show up and discuss. Thanks.
Tetra




posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: iosolomon

I really don't know where anyone would ever get the idea that God is loving or forgiving. The God of the Bible is clearly a God of Wrath. (See the verses where God destroys the world or Sodom and Gomorrah.) And if God was so forgiving, why not forgive "us" for our sins instead of "sacrificing His only Son"? Yeah, I really don't know how people are this foolish.
That is actually how it is explained in the New Testament, that God forgives people by just forgetting about those sins.
Of course that is predicated on the person first repenting, which means "sinning no more", as Jesus said.
This is where the problem, I think, comes in, giving up on sin that can seem like just "the way life is".
Sort of like the hound, Sandor Clegane, who says, "I just see things the way they are".



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:19 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Seems rather primitive. And to think we still invest in such principles today...our evolution is positively crawling.
The proceedures described would seem primitave to us today.
What I was doing is looking at somewhere else besides 1 John where this word is found, that puts it in a context where we can derive its meaning.
The conclusion to me is that it means atonement, rather than "atoning sacrifice" as it is translated in some English Bibles.
It is reconciliation, and it is something a priest does as intermediary between all the parties involved, it is not the sacrifice itself which only serves a periphery role.



This post also brings up another important point, as to corruption or altering of scripture in the Christian Bible: language and translation….



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:30 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

All the ritualistic stuff is 'fluff'. A man needs only to be good to be good, and that is what God and Jesus is about, being good to yourself and others.

The bible, although not without its faults and misunderstandings, is a guide book for those humans who want to be good to themselves and good to others, and have others know that this is what they are about and what they want. Besides the humans that use religion as a masking of their own desires and wickedries.

Jesus, writers of revelations, philosophers, knew/know that there are people that strive for good, who are pure and innocent, and there are people who do not do so as much. They knew/know the good people would/will want to live in a world that is good, that it would be ideal to abolish wickedness from the world, man being wicked to himself, and man being wicked to others.

They knew heaven couldnt be built in a day. So the bible, though with some taintedness mixed in, is more or less, a symbol of an innocent person, 'a lamb' 'a sheep', using a good shepard, as their leader through and in this world.

All the ritual stuff is just to 'tide over' them over, maybe to make some buy into it more (which is wicked, using anything but goodness itself, to sell someone on the idea of being good) until the day comes when the workings will begin to create heaven on earth.

All the scholars and arguments, and people discussing the bible and its meanings, its all pointless fluff, the truth is so simple. Good people. Bad people. Good people want to rule the earth and make it good. Bad people want to rule the earth and make it bad. It will be a messy mixture of both until one side does whats needed to be done to win or lose.

This 'end game move' is not, converting 30 people to your religion, or praying real hard, or hoping you get to heaven. Its a very radical worldwide, creedless, genderless, ageless, nationless event.

(And this end is nearrr!!!!!!!.....just kidding...........but seriously.......just kidding)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:32 PM
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a reply to: tetra50

This post also brings up another important point, as to corruption or altering of scripture in the Christian Bible: language and translation….
There is some leeway in what you can conceivably translate the verses as, and get away with it without accusations of outright fraud, and I think translations like the King James took full advantage of that, under orders by the king, to produce a Bible that supported preexisting church doctrine.
That's why I have the blog that I linked to earlier, to record the work I do in the Greek to piece together the meanings that was probably intended by the original writers.
Most people don't have the free time to do all that, and why I try to make my results accessible.
People are free of course to disagree and I invite as much criticism as anyone can muster.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:41 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

All the scholars and arguments, and people discussing the bible and its meanings, its all pointless fluff, the truth is so simple. Good people. Bad people. Good people want to rule the earth and make it good. Bad people want to rule the earth and make it bad. It will be a messy mixture of both until one side does whats needed to be done to win or lose.
It isn't "fluff" as long as there are "wolves" about, trying to convince people that you don't have to be good, or even that trying to be good is so much "works" that denies Grace.
One of the tools towards that goal is a sort of false piety that actually is "works", the work of believing, whether it is in a salvation theory, or whatever.
That is not the sort of works God saved us for, feeling how good you are that you are "forgiven" by believing in "the blood".

I should probably mention that I can sit here and go on about "being good" because I am like too old to do anything really bad, so I can't feel all smug, as if I was good because I have some sort of inherent superiority over "sinners".
And if anyone thinks that I talk funny, well I was a southern california surfer in the sixties, so there.
edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 01:40 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

Yes I suppose I didnt mean anything like that. I guess I meant, if you believe in 'the trials and tribulations and end times and 2nd coming', what this really means is there will be a 'swiftish' time, of conscious conscience revolution and people will need to decide what side they are on, good or bad.

So what I am saying is, a primitive man living in some forresty foothills of Guatemala right now, who has never heard of the church, who just keeps to himself and farms and what not, and doesnt do anyone harm, is just as much a holy man in gods eyes then a priest, potentially more so.

What i am saying is, the church and the bible, is like 'a pill', which people need to feed themselves daily. Some people can live the life of a holy, pious, righteous, good willed man, without 'the pill'.

If everyone could do so...which is the goal, or 'the great work', then there will be no need for the pill, or the rituals, or the fluff. It would be seen as it is, superficial or cosmetic.

It is something good people (though some bad apples in religion), preoccupy themselves with, as a little slice of heaven. Or to be cognizant of what the great work is working towards. To know they are on the side of Good, on this planets moral war.

It is only the living that will make the decisions that dictate earths future. And well, the livings interpretation of the deads words. But a man 100 years ago that reads the bible and 'believes the rituals', and builds a church, and unites his community in goodness. Only the good or bad reaped and sowed is what matters, that man has done his part in sowing some goodness onto earth, by not being bad, and even by producing some goodness from his work. But, and this is my big but, point, is that for all men to just perform these little works on earth over the ages, is not enough to defeat evil from earth. And exactly that, is what the New Testament is about. There needs to be 'the singularity', 'the anomaly', 'the one', 'the savior', 'the messiah', 'Jesus', to summarize the absolute potentials of Gods thoughts and will, or natures potentials for mans achievements on earth, and attempt to lead and usher humanity into a new age.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 02:52 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
That is actually how it is explained in the New Testament, that God forgives people by just forgetting about those sins.
Of course that is predicated on the person first repenting, which means "sinning no more", as Jesus said.
This is where the problem, I think, comes in, giving up on sin that can seem like just "the way life is".
Sort of like the hound, Sandor Clegane, who says, "I just see things the way they are".


I've read the New Testament, and I did not see that anywhere, especially when you keep the New Testament in context of the Old Testament...but believe what you want, just don't say you haven't been warned.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi



It is something good people (though some bad apples in religion), preoccupy themselves with, as a little slice of heaven. Or to be cognizant of what the great work is working towards. To know they are on the side of Good, on this planets moral war.




A lot of talk here recently about "good" and "bad." I picked just this towards the end, to reply to.

All of that require a great deal of judgement. Surely we are all familiar enough with scripture here that I don't need to quote verses which represent even the duplicitous attitude of the Bible about such: That we must use discernment, but that judgement, obviously, of one another, isn't ours… I'll return and quote them, if need be.

Then there's this, which, using different words, earlier in the member's first post, ElohimJD, seemed to be describing, as well, when describing each person living their way with their idea of good and bad and the result being chaos, which we need to live through so we are willing to surrender our will to God's will, that there may then be unity and peace. I thought about putting it into the words you've used here, for it seems to me that this is man's answer to that: the technological singularity, and that even, perhaps, the promise (I believe in Revelations) that God's will is to be "written in our hearts…."



There needs to be 'the singularity', 'the anomaly', 'the one', 'the savior', 'the messiah', 'Jesus', to summarize the absolute potentials of Gods thoughts and will, or natures potentials for mans achievements on earth, and attempt to lead and usher humanity into a new age.



I'm afraid I disagree wholeheartedly with this. The problem with all of this is to me is that man is doing the judging, not God. And our continued love affair with technology may, in fact, create judgements that aren't warranted. That's my problem with the whole idea of surrendering our will, as I'm not sure there's enough of God left here to surrender to. We may, in fact, have already surrendered to something and someone else, entirely…
The world and history, I think, are a little more complicated than bad and good, and bad and good, or at least their appearance, are quite easily manipulated as to create those perceptions.
I'm not feeling well today and not at my best at communicating, so forgive if I'm not making my point very well.




All the scholars and arguments, and people discussing the bible and its meanings, its all pointless fluff, the truth is so simple. Good people. Bad people.

Well, yes and no. I don't see it as pointless fluff at all. People who wish to be close to God spend countless hours trying to determine what is meant by the Word, and also use it to create judgement about others. To me, the Old Testament seems to be a story of forward and backward prophecy, really, the same story told over and over. And there is much to be debated in the translation issue, as well. Some of the books were written in Hebrew, some in Aramaic. Some Hebrew words, and I suspect, Aramaic, as well, do not have English equivalents.

The way this book is used seems far to important to just dismiss in this way. I'm not even sure it's the real story, to begin with, historically, and I do think that is rather important, as it's used to justify much and negate much.




Good people want to rule the earth and make it good. Bad people want to rule the earth and make it bad. It will be a messy mixture of both until one side does whats needed to be done to win or lose.



I am hoping there is an inbetween, here, of people of don't want to rule anything but themselves. For me, though, I will agree that many times I've thought there would be far less chaos if we only all agreed on a few things: To not hurt, revel in the pain of hurting or to take advantage or rule over others and control their lives' and destinies. And to forgive (not seek vengeance as it only begets more pain and more vengeance), and treat each other as we would wish to be treated. The seeking of power, to rule one another, as you speak of here, is likely the root of more problems than anything.
Tetra

P.S. Ima, I answered your question to me earlier in this thread in a U2U.
edit on 28-5-2014 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

. . . to lead and usher humanity into a new age.
I think that already happened and what Jesus meant when he said that those who believe have already entered into eternal life.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: iosolomon

...but believe what you want, just don't say you haven't been warned.
. . of what?
Not wasting energy believing in God?
My advice is to read the gospels.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
(2011 NIV)
He doesn't mention sacrificing any animals.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 04:57 PM
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ImaFungi:




There needs to be 'the singularity', 'the anomaly', 'the one', 'the savior', 'the messiah', 'Jesus', to summarize the absolute potentials of Gods thoughts and will, or natures potentials for mans achievements on earth, and attempt to lead and usher humanity into a new age.



I re-read what you wrote here, and decided I wasn't fair in my reply to you. First, you've expressed this in a lovely way, and no where did you say technological in relationship to singularity, but instead combined it with a descriptive list ("anomaly, the one, the savior, the messiah, Jesus") which usually doesn't reference technological singularity, in the least.

But I suppose what I was trying to show is how easily such concepts can be perverted, and then take on a life of their own, as many perceive we simply haven't had the right one "ruling" everything and everyone, when I think this concept of "rule" may be a large part of the problem.

There is a verse, perhaps more than one, that describes that all that comes from the heart of mankind is evil, that this is all our hearts are capable of without God. That's why the answer is later given that in the age to follow, God's will shall be written in our hearts.

I believe all this lends itself to deterministically branding mankind as capable of only evil. Although I agree it presently appears historically to be true, I'm not sure that wasn't a controlled destiny in order to support the Bible as a sort of "script" for what should follow. If so, it's the Hagellian (sp.) approach of problem-reaction-solution, and would suggest all this has been as another poster already expressed: a method for men to wield power over, control and justify the like over other men (and women.)

I see the concept of Jesus dying for the sins of mankind being used in the same way, as I expressed in the initial OP. Though I'm not a Libertarian, and hesitate to bring it up in the thread, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, I believe, expressed through the story (maybe it was the Fountainhead, I can't remember which) that religion was being used to keep a "level" playing field, by requiring the most successful and inherently gifted to be their brother's keeper.

I don't really disagree with that basic concept: If we all sacrificed for one another, and our basic needs were not tampered with to control our reactions, the world could be a much different place. But people don't all sacrifice for one another, and that's frequently where judgement enters the fray, as a determinant for who deserves the sacrifice. It's also how those who sacrifice are vetted as to how worthy their sacrifice is.

Generally, my point here is it gets very tricky. Even the phrase that we should be our brother's keeper means one thing to one person, and something else to another.
Tetra
edit on 28-5-2014 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 05:53 PM
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Now, as I understand the first five books of the Old Testament are ascribed to Moses. Interesting how a vengeful God can be contrite, and repentant, and give license to humans. Try reading everything after Noah exits the Ark. A promise, guaranteed by a rainbow, to never indulge in mass murder, again. Openly repenting in the murder of all other humans. Now, the rest of the OT books are Wisdoms (Laws) and Prophets. The NT is the opposite, the first four books, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are testaments by separate individuals. While the rest of the NT is primarily the writings of Paul. Revelations thrown in to add another "author." So, I stick to those. Take away Paul and Pauline dogma, and most forms of "Christianity" collapse. The questions on Coptic texts and scrolls recovered from graveyards and hiding of similarly old texts is open. But, it is hard not to believe such as the Gospel of Thomas, where Jesus says to not seek him in buildings and such, he can be found under a rock, or in a split log. Sort of goes with the statements in the first Four books. Better to hide in a closet and pray, than to do so in public. There is the Widow and her two coppers versus the rich man in the temple, and who is rewarded and will be rewarded.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: tetra50

Sacrifice is the greatest honor any human can achieve. We die so others can live. I'm not talking about religious ceremony sacrifice, I'm talking about putting your life in serious danger to save someone. I would do it a million times over.
edit on 28-5-2014 by Evanzsayz because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:06 PM
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originally posted by: Evanzsayz
a reply to: tetra50

Sacrifice is the greatest honor any human can achieve. We die so others can live. I'm not talking about religious ceremony sacrifice, I'm talking about putting your life in serious danger to save someone. I would do it a million times over.


Yes, Evansayz…I really agree. Perhaps you should re-read my post, for I do not dispute that,but thanks for reading and replying.

My point is further or beyond. For, in this world, it seems, whether whom we identify with as Jesus paid the price or another,it's constantly ignored, respun, redone, attributed elsewhere, in order that we may all be "hamstrung" by it and asked to do it over, and pay the very same price….
What does this do to faith, is my question?
Sincerely,
Tetra



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:17 PM
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Why is it so difficult to contemplate the adjudication aspects of the sacrifice of the lamb? Read hebrews. It is all about the law and legal aspect of this sacrifice. The why's and reasoning for the sacrificial lamb. It is reallynot that complicated. At least not compared to mans laws and reasonings. Yah gave 10 commandments. Men cried and complzined so Moses elaborated on it to the tune of over 600 laws elaborating on the 10. Now 4,000+/- odd years later we have entire law libraries trying to explain law. Shoot man, if congress doesn't pass alot of new laws every session they are criticized for doing nothing. Why is Yah supposed to not care about propitiation of the law?



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:40 PM
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originally posted by: manna2
Why is it so difficult to contemplate the adjudication aspects of the sacrifice of the lamb? Read hebrews. It is all about the law and legal aspect of this sacrifice. The why's and reasoning for the sacrificial lamb. It is reallynot that complicated. At least not compared to mans laws and reasonings. Yah gave 10 commandments. Men cried and complzined so Moses elaborated on it to the tune of over 600 laws elaborating on the 10. Now 4,000+/- odd years later we have entire law libraries trying to explain law. Shoot man, if congress doesn't pass alot of new laws every session they are criticized for doing nothing. Why is Yah supposed to not care about propitiation of the law?


Legal aspects, huh? Who's law are we talking about here? I notice you invoke the ten commandments. Moses' or what we read in the popular version of the Bible. They are different, dependant upon whom you ask.

Read Hebrews? hmmm. That's been discussed here. Do you read Hebrew, actually. If not, why come here and declare that? For Hebrew, Aramaic, and English are all very, very different. Whose translation do you trust?

I think you're mixing up a lot of disparate things here. "Shoot man," you say….and go on with "if Congress doesn't pass a lot of new laws they are criticized for doing nothing."
Where does that belong in this discussion?
Politics and religion. IMHO this is what has taken everything, the Word, the sacrifice of many, not just Christ astray….

But I think you know that. In fact, I perceive you to be simply baiting for a fight…..
What your motives are, I couldn't help to say, and really wouldn't want to know.
Law? Btw. What law, who's?
Tetra50

P.S. They say the devil was a lawyer, speaking about "law" and the tacit consent of sacrifice every day…..
Just sayin.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:44 PM
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a reply to: manna2

Why is it so difficult to contemplate the adjudication aspects of the sacrifice of the lamb?
Maybe because there isn't any.

Read hebrews. It is all about the law and legal aspect of this sacrifice. The why's and reasoning for the sacrificial lamb.
The "law and legal aspect" is a metaphorical device to explain it in terms understandable to someone already well versed in the Jewish ceremonies connected to the temple.
What Jesus actually did was not a ceremony and he was not performing a ritual.
It would be good to not get caught up in the allegory.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:45 PM
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Oh and another thing (obviously you hit a nerve with me)…
"why is it so difficult to contemplate the sacrifices of the lamb…" and telling us all what we should be reading….
What's the translation of what you're reading? Who wrote that. What does it really mean?

Why is it so difficult? Perhaps you would understand if you read the OP again.
The law of sacrifice isn't coming from God….
In a nutshell, that's my assertion. All this talk of political whatever, law and mankind, tells me you aren't coming from anyplace but an argumentative one. While I'm arguing. See how that works. I know you do. That's the whole intent, here. For us to debate some "law" that isn't law, really. Because that law's been broken so many friggin times it isn't funny, by denuding His and everyone else's sacrifice, so we can keep debating the same, broken worn out points, and your intellect saying it isn't that difficult, we've all tacity agreed to the same. Look at our political system, it proves it….

Tetra



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:48 PM
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a reply to: manna2

Wait... isn't that the reason Jesus came? To simplify the law? He said the entire law hung on two commandments, to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. How much simpler could it be? Why did Paul have to come in and re-complicate it again?

Why was Paul needed? Were Jesus' words not simple enough or powerful enough to understand? Why does there have to be a middle-man? God gave us his word through Jesus, there is no need for anything else to be said: love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Simple, concise, and to the point. Nothing else is needed.

edit on 5/28/2014 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)







 
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