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Is this really faith in life?

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posted on May, 28 2014 @ 08:51 AM
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originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: jmdewey60



Jesus was presented as the representative of "sinful" flesh, basically, humanity as we know it in this world.
The crises point is a yes or no judgment on whether to bring him back to life or not.

First, thanks jmdewey60, for your reply.
But why, when we are led to believe in scripture that he lived a "perfect life," (though I'm not necessarily agreeing with that either), would he be, in your words: "…. presented as the representative of "sinful" flesh, basically, humanity as we know it in this world?"
Thanks,
Tetra


Isnt that a pagan ritual, maybe even jewish too, to slaughter an innocent animal, perhaps a lamb, and first performing a ritual to transfer your sins onto it?




posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:13 AM
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a reply to: tetra50

But why, when we are led to believe in scripture that he lived a "perfect life," (though I'm not necessarily agreeing with that either), would he be, in your words: "…. presented as the representative of "sinful" flesh, basically, humanity as we know it in this world?"
That's the thing, does it really say that Jesus was "perfect", and is such a thing even possible for any human, even if he was Jesus, Son of God?
If he was like us, then he wouldn't because as Paul said, 'my spirit wants to do what is good, but my limbs do what is bad, despite that' (to paraphrase).
It also says in the New Testament that Jesus was perfected in death, meaning his submission to being killed, as part of his obedience to God.
What I wrote in my earlier post was an adaptation of my interpretation of Hebrews 9:28. (you can read my blog post on it readingthebibleingreek.blog.com...)
The writer of Hebrews was framing what Jesus did in the context of the Jewish priesthood in their annual ceremony of the Day of Atonement.
What I am trying to do is to understand the analogy, then take it out of that context to show what he was really doing, without all the priestly frou-frou.
Jesus becomes humanity's representative before God in heaven.
In order just to be able to do that, there has to be a vetting process.
The fact alone that he passed it is significant for us, other humans, as for our own chances of getting to go to that same place or even in the same general vicinity.
edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

Isnt that a pagan ritual, maybe even jewish too, to slaughter an innocent animal, perhaps a lamb, and first performing a ritual to transfer your sins onto it?
That was done on the Day of Atonement, that you would have two goats, lots would be cast as to which one will be killed.
Some of the blood of the goat that was killed is sprinkled on the Ark (supposedly when they still had one, before the Babylonians came to capture Jerusalem) in the Most Holy Place.
The sins of the people were placed on the head of the other goat to be led into the wilderness (maybe to be killed by wild beasts but figuratively by demons).
That was the ceremony recorded in the Old Testament where sins are transferred to an animal, but it isn't killed as a sacrifice in the normal sense.
Like I said earlier, people think of Jesus like you said, but they are wrong as far as I can tell by just reading the Bible, and no one has been able to demonstrate to me on this forum that I am wrong in this assessment.


edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:30 AM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60

Like I said earlier, people think of Jesus like you said, but they are wrong as far as I can tell by just reading the Bible, and no one has been able to demonstrate to me on this forum that I am wrong in this assessment.



What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:37 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
I mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 09:51 AM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungi

What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
I mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".


Oh ok, that sounds like its a major aspect of what most Christians and Catholics (?) learn to believe in church? That he died for their sins and stuff.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

That he died for their sins and stuff.
Jesus died for our sins, but what does that mean, exactly? Which is what I have been working on, to find out.
The grammar (in the phrase "Jesus died for our sins") indicates that the "sin" itself is what benefits (and this comes from the comments of a highly regarded biblical scholar, and not just my own opinion).
I am explaining what the implications of that understanding are (in my opinion), and how it works out in the bigger scheme of things (in my earlier posts on this thread).
edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: tetra50
I've been a student of the Bible, the King James Version, for a very long time. Having said that, the more I've come to know and read scripture, the more separated from "faith" I have become.

I was raised on the belief that God is loving, forgiving, and wanted us to excel, love one another and procreate (multiply) and have faith in His goodness and the goodness in one another, that exists because we are of His image.

I have reached middle age having witnessed anything but what I described above.

Sure, we all see lots of ill in this world. But I want to focus upon the "Word" and what it tells us. My thinking is: perhaps the Bible, long before the council of Nicea, was changed. Perhaps it was even written and presented to us, to serve as a "meter," a test, for what we would and would not agree and comply with.

Abraham: and God's test to him to take his son to the top of the mount, having faith in His instructions, and kill his son, according to God's supposed word. What I described as "God" previously, would never ask that of a man, woman, parent….anyone.

Should I go on?

It seems to me that the whole concept of Jesus, having died "for our sins," is a psy ops (read: psychological operation) in cognitive therapy, behavioral therapy, of a sort, intended to shame us all into a certain way of life, or pay the price. The thing is, vice configured and vice presented, no matter your behavior, you will still be asked, demanded, to make the certain sacrifice.

In other words, it seems to me that the whole idea of a savior dying for all our sins, is to glorify the concept of sacrifice, so that sacrifice, whether it be on a witchcraft, Sam Fein level, or a Christian level, is the very same……
Presented with choices which aren't choices at all, but to tell the truth or lie about it, be successful in the lie, as the Devi owns this world and will reward you for supporting Him, it all ends in the same: the pit, death, suffering, etc.
And the Word, the Bible, only softens you up, so to speak, for that end…..

You can sacrifice your life for what you believe to be the truth, and die a painful death, as the Devil is in control, hereabouts. Or you can go along with Him, and suffer, anyway.

I am interested in the thoughts of others, and expect, especially, the Christian membership on this site, to flame away. Have at it.
The crux of what I am trying to get to, is the whole idea of "SACRIFICE." Is that really a good thing? Why should anyone die or pay for someone else's sins? Doesn't that create a "chain" of behavior whereby we are all mop heads, exchanging our identities, and everyone is "cleansed" by lying about who Christ is, thereby perpetuating the same horror over and over, and one individual paying for that over and over……

Tetra50


The Kingdoms of this present age are not the Kingdom of God.

Mankind has free moral agency and as such they determine for themselves what is right and what is wrong (their personal morality) currently. Since each individual has a different definition of right and wrong, we have friction and conflict, as one mind attempts to convince another mind to come into agreement with their personal morality.

Salvation is not of this present age.

"My Kingdom is not of this age." - Jesus

God has a perfect plan for the creation of Elohim (the God Family, the ultimate purpose for mankind's creation) in TIME.

His plan requires 6 days (1 day = 1000 years) for mankind to "go about there own works" determining there own belief structures, morality, faiths, religions, governmental systems, laws, ethics etc. For the vast majority of all mankind that has ever lived and ever died on the face of the Earth, they were meant to live this first life (in the present age) according to "what seems right to the mind" based on their personal morality.... and then witness the pain, suffering, sadness, tyranny, cruelty, carnality oppression etc. that results from a world with 7 billion different and conflicting personal moralities co-existing simultaneously. This teaches each mind that has ever existed the lesson that all mankind living according to "my way" (what seems right to the individual) produces chaos and death (look at the world around you); this is done so that in the next age, each mind has the greatest potential to willingly choose to live "God's way" (what His Word defines as right and wrong) at the expense (sacrifice) of "my way"

One must know what "my way" is (my personal morality) in order to willingly choose to sacrifice it in order to live "God's way", which when lived by all mankind simultaneously, produces peace (no conflict between individual morality, since all morality is unified by God's spirit).

God's plan also requires another day (1000 years) under the Kingdom of God on Earth (soon to begin) followed by an addition time known as the Great White Thrown Judgement age. Most of mankind was given to live twice, 2 physical lives on Earth; one in this present age (living according to my way); and one in the age to come called the Great White Thrown (living according to God's way), so each mind can have the perfect real life experience of proving that "my way" leads to death and suffering, while "God's way" leads to peace (unity of thoughts, without conflict). This is the only manner God can create free thinking beings willing to choose to sacrifice there way of thinking in order to love (agape) all other thought beings.

In order to live "God's way" one must sacrifice "my way"; since God's way teaches how to love (Greek = agape, a self sacrificial love for the betterment of others at the expense of oneself) and this type of love is sacrificial by design.

Jesus Christ gave his life for all who have ever lived or ever will live. He did so, because it was required of God, not out of cruelty, but out of love (self sacrificial love).

Any thought, which comes from the mind of mankind, and acted upon, which is in opposition to the way God thinks is sin (conflict with God's morality). God's Word defines sin as the transgression of the law over 40 times in scripture. The law teaches mankind how to think according to "God's way" of thinking. The punishment for sin is death as also recorded over 40 times in scripture; therefore, since all mankind is currently living according to "what seems right to me" (personal morality) there are dozens of thoughts everyday that are acted upon by men which are in opposition to God's morality; therefore daily sin is present in man.

God required a "Passover sacrifice" for the removal of sins. He required a man, born physical to live a life without sin and yet still die (pay the penalty/death without committing the crime/sin). Jesus Christ's death was a sacrifice from God for us, not a sacrifice from Jesus to God. God sacrificed His only son, perfect in his thoughts and deeds so that all mankind would have the ability to be forgiven of their sins (penalty removed) because Jesus Christ died in their stead as the "Passover Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world".

In time all will be made known and we live at the most awesome time in all of history, the transition from the age of mankind's self rule, to the age of the Kingdom of God on Earth. If you have eyes to see, God will begin revealing His ways to all mankind shortly.

God Bless,



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:15 AM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungi

That he died for their sins and stuff.
Jesus died for our sins, but what does that mean, exactly? Which is what I have been working on, to find out.
The grammar (in the phrase "Jesus died for our sins") indicates that the "sin" itself is what benefits (and this comes from the comments of a highly regarded biblical scholar, and not just my own opinion).
I am explaining what the implications of that understanding are (in my opinion), and how it works out in the bigger scheme of things (in my earlier posts on this thread).


I already stated the true nature and meaning of the scenario. I think I may have seen you in another thread on similar subject and you were denying what I was saying, so maybe it would be better i didnt waste my time. But it boils down to many fervently held beliefs and ideas held by Christians and Catholics about the world and the bible and jesus, are wrong.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:18 AM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungi

What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
I mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".


A blood sacrifice to pay for our transgressions. How is that any different from the Aztecs sacrificing their virgins to appease the sun god?



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:24 AM
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originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungi

What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
I mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".


A blood sacrifice to pay for our transgressions. How is that any different from the Aztecs sacrificing their virgins to appease the sun god?


Where do you think the demonic realm got the basis for their mockery from?

Satan's false religious systems (the religions of man) have been mocking God's true plan and purpose since the beginning (garden of Eden). From ancient paganism, to modern Christianity; Satan has filled the religions of men with mockery/false symbolism.

What is actually required of God is the sacrifice of the self (my way of thinking, which is naturally in opposition to God's), which was perfectly exemplified by God sacrificing Himself (His son Jesus) physically, so we can learn to sacrifice ourselves spiritually (in the mind).

It is not this physical life that God is concerned with, it is the spiritual life being forged in the minds of those called out of the World into the Temple of God through time. And God's perfect plan will reveal these truths to each mind according to his perfect timing.

God Bless,



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 10:46 AM
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a reply to: ElohimJD


What is actually required of God is the sacrifice of the self (my way of thinking, which is naturally in opposition to God's), which was perfectly exemplified by God sacrificing Himself (His son Jesus) physically, so we can learn to sacrifice ourselves spiritually (in the mind).


What are we sacrificing ourselves for, exactly?



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 11:02 AM
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a reply to: ElohimJD

Jesus Christ gave his life for all who have ever lived or ever will live. He did so, because it was required of God, not out of cruelty, but out of love (self sacrificial love).
You may be thinking of the verse in 1 John, that says:

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
(2011 NIV)
The "atoning sacrifice" part is an interpretive translation from a single Greek word in the original text: hilasmos.
That particular word only shows up in the New Testament in that one book.
There are three was to look for a meaning to this word, 1) in classical Greek, 2) in the works of Philo, 3) in the Septuagint.
One of the places in the Greek version of the Old Testament where this word is found is,
Numbers 5:8
But if that person has no close relative to whom restitution can be made for the wrong, the restitution belongs to the LORD and must be given to the priest, along with the ram with which atonement is made for the wrongdoer.
(2011 NIV)
Notice this is concerning an offense between two people, rather than a "sin" against God.
In Leviticus, it describes something similar, where the priest makes atonement.
Notice here where it says that atonement is made with the offering, not by the giving of the offering.
This (in Numbers) is a condensed explanation where Leviticus is more detailed, and explains that the actual "making atonement" is a priestly duty as an intercessor between the supplicant and God, while the animal itself is burnt on the altar to produce a "savory aroma" conducive to a good mood on the part of the deity being appealed to, adding to the chances of a successful outcome.

As to the main point in your statement that I quoted (how this helps all humanity), see my earlier posts on this thread.
edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 11:08 AM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

Seems rather primitive. And to think we still invest in such principles today...our evolution is positively crawling.
edit on 28-5-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: ElohimJD

God's Word defines sin as the transgression of the law over 40 times in scripture. The law teaches mankind how to think according to "God's way" of thinking.
I don't think so.
It concievably mentions that many things that are sins, but there are not that many definitions of what "sin" is.

The punishment for sin is death as also recorded over 40 times in scripture;
It may mention that many sins that are punishable by death but there are not that many places that say that the punishment for "sin" is death.
In fact, I don't think that it says it in that way anywhere in the Bible.

God required a "Passover sacrifice" for the removal of sins.
The Passover is not, and never was, a "sin" offering.

He required a man, born physical to live a life without sin and yet still die (pay the penalty/death without committing the crime/sin).
Interesting theory but not one supported by the Bible.

Jesus Christ's death was a sacrifice from God for us, not a sacrifice from Jesus to God.
Say again?


edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: ImaFungi

But it boils down to many fervently held beliefs and ideas held by Christians and Catholics about the world and the bible and jesus, are wrong.
That is basically what it "boils down to" as you say.
Everyone is wrong except those who belong to my religion, or maybe not, since I don't have an actual religion that you can join, but I might interject that despite all my feelings towards myself in terms of being independent, that may be a bit flawed, and it could be that I may actually owe some of my thinking to the version of Seventh Day Adventism that was taught back in the Fifties.
Now, if I could like go back there in time, and said all of this stuff in that environment, in church (which they allowed back then), I suspect that no one would bat an eye.
edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 11:41 AM
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originally posted by: tetra50
I was raised on the belief that God is loving, forgiving


I really don't know where anyone would ever get the idea that God is loving or forgiving. The God of the Bible is clearly a God of Wrath. (See the verses where God destroys the world or Sodom and Gomorrah.) And if God was so forgiving, why not forgive "us" for our sins instead of "sacrificing His only Son"? Yeah, I really don't know how people are this foolish.



The crux of what I am trying to get to, is the whole idea of "SACRIFICE." Is that really a good thing?


If God is real, yes, it is a good thing. If God is not real, it just depends on what will be accomplished from the Sacrifice. I whole-heartedly feel, if God is not real, therefore, no after-life, that Abraham Lincoln sacrificing hundreds of thousands to rightfully give Black Americans their Declarational rights was a good thing, and even better if God is real (but still good under existentialism).



Why should anyone die or pay for someone else's sins?


To build a better tomorrow. When the Asians demand payment for the trillions that america owes (lower case because america with a capital only exists when the Constitution exists, which will either require an overthrow of the men and women who pervert the Constitution, as Abe Lincoln would say, or establishing a new Constitution altogether to deny us the rights that are being denied), there will be much death and much paying for the sins of today's generation. It's all a matter of Honor. Hopefully, americans wake up and become Americans (ie, start to honor the Constitution).



Doesn't that create a "chain" of behavior whereby we are all mop heads, exchanging our identities, and everyone is "cleansed" by lying about who Christ is, thereby perpetuating the same horror over and over, and one individual paying for that over and over……


The american empire. If Jesus Christ was to walk in this wicked Land, the story of the Bible would repeat... Time flows like a river, and history repeats.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 11:48 AM
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a reply to: AfterInfinity

A blood sacrifice to pay for our transgressions. How is that any different from the Aztecs sacrificing their virgins to appease the sun god?
I was trying to summarize the type of belief that I thought Fungi was talking about.
I don't believe in it myself.
There is something similar to that in the classic version of Seventh Day Adventism, that Jesus had to feel the crushing psychological and physical effects of being a sinner despite not having actually committed them himself.
This started just after the last supper, or maybe during, when he realized that Judas had betrayed him.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: ElohimJD

Where do you think the demonic realm got the basis for their mockery from?
And do you think that Christianity is immune to having some of that "mockery" filtering in from the demonic realm?
I think that it did, and it started way back to Augustine who was a pagan priest before going to work for the Catholic Church.
That is where the substitutionary penal atonement theory comes from.

From ancient paganism, to modern Christianity; Satan has filled the religions of men with mockery/false symbolism.
OK, seems you admit to the doctrines of Christianity being tainted.
I guess my question should be, what makes you think that your take on it is demonic free?

What is actually required of God is the sacrifice of the self (my way of thinking, which is naturally in opposition to God's), which was perfectly exemplified by God sacrificing Himself (His son Jesus) physically, so we can learn to sacrifice ourselves spiritually (in the mind).
So then do you think the whole thing was just an object lesson with no real intrinsic meaning?

edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: AfterInfinity

Seems rather primitive. And to think we still invest in such principles today...our evolution is positively crawling.
The proceedures described would seem primitave to us today.
What I was doing is looking at somewhere else besides 1 John where this word is found, that puts it in a context where we can derive its meaning.
The conclusion to me is that it means atonement, rather than "atoning sacrifice" as it is translated in some English Bibles.
It is reconciliation, and it is something a priest does as intermediary between all the parties involved, it is not the sacrifice itself which only serves a periphery role.


edit on 28-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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