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originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: jmdewey60
Jesus was presented as the representative of "sinful" flesh, basically, humanity as we know it in this world.
The crises point is a yes or no judgment on whether to bring him back to life or not.
First, thanks jmdewey60, for your reply.
But why, when we are led to believe in scripture that he lived a "perfect life," (though I'm not necessarily agreeing with that either), would he be, in your words: "…. presented as the representative of "sinful" flesh, basically, humanity as we know it in this world?"
Thanks,
Tetra
That's the thing, does it really say that Jesus was "perfect", and is such a thing even possible for any human, even if he was Jesus, Son of God?
But why, when we are led to believe in scripture that he lived a "perfect life," (though I'm not necessarily agreeing with that either), would he be, in your words: "…. presented as the representative of "sinful" flesh, basically, humanity as we know it in this world?"
That was done on the Day of Atonement, that you would have two goats, lots would be cast as to which one will be killed.
Isnt that a pagan ritual, maybe even jewish too, to slaughter an innocent animal, perhaps a lamb, and first performing a ritual to transfer your sins onto it?
originally posted by: jmdewey60
Like I said earlier, people think of Jesus like you said, but they are wrong as far as I can tell by just reading the Bible, and no one has been able to demonstrate to me on this forum that I am wrong in this assessment.
I mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".
What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungiI mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".
What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
Jesus died for our sins, but what does that mean, exactly? Which is what I have been working on, to find out.
That he died for their sins and stuff.
originally posted by: tetra50
I've been a student of the Bible, the King James Version, for a very long time. Having said that, the more I've come to know and read scripture, the more separated from "faith" I have become.
I was raised on the belief that God is loving, forgiving, and wanted us to excel, love one another and procreate (multiply) and have faith in His goodness and the goodness in one another, that exists because we are of His image.
I have reached middle age having witnessed anything but what I described above.
Sure, we all see lots of ill in this world. But I want to focus upon the "Word" and what it tells us. My thinking is: perhaps the Bible, long before the council of Nicea, was changed. Perhaps it was even written and presented to us, to serve as a "meter," a test, for what we would and would not agree and comply with.
Abraham: and God's test to him to take his son to the top of the mount, having faith in His instructions, and kill his son, according to God's supposed word. What I described as "God" previously, would never ask that of a man, woman, parent….anyone.
Should I go on?
It seems to me that the whole concept of Jesus, having died "for our sins," is a psy ops (read: psychological operation) in cognitive therapy, behavioral therapy, of a sort, intended to shame us all into a certain way of life, or pay the price. The thing is, vice configured and vice presented, no matter your behavior, you will still be asked, demanded, to make the certain sacrifice.
In other words, it seems to me that the whole idea of a savior dying for all our sins, is to glorify the concept of sacrifice, so that sacrifice, whether it be on a witchcraft, Sam Fein level, or a Christian level, is the very same……
Presented with choices which aren't choices at all, but to tell the truth or lie about it, be successful in the lie, as the Devi owns this world and will reward you for supporting Him, it all ends in the same: the pit, death, suffering, etc.
And the Word, the Bible, only softens you up, so to speak, for that end…..
You can sacrifice your life for what you believe to be the truth, and die a painful death, as the Devil is in control, hereabouts. Or you can go along with Him, and suffer, anyway.
I am interested in the thoughts of others, and expect, especially, the Christian membership on this site, to flame away. Have at it.
The crux of what I am trying to get to, is the whole idea of "SACRIFICE." Is that really a good thing? Why should anyone die or pay for someone else's sins? Doesn't that create a "chain" of behavior whereby we are all mop heads, exchanging our identities, and everyone is "cleansed" by lying about who Christ is, thereby perpetuating the same horror over and over, and one individual paying for that over and over……
Tetra50
originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungiJesus died for our sins, but what does that mean, exactly? Which is what I have been working on, to find out.
That he died for their sins and stuff.
The grammar (in the phrase "Jesus died for our sins") indicates that the "sin" itself is what benefits (and this comes from the comments of a highly regarded biblical scholar, and not just my own opinion).
I am explaining what the implications of that understanding are (in my opinion), and how it works out in the bigger scheme of things (in my earlier posts on this thread).
originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungiI mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".
What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
originally posted by: AfterInfinity
originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: ImaFungiI mean the idea that literally, your sins were somehow placed on Jesus when he was crucified, and that therefor your sins were "paid for", and so now you can be forgiven, and that you are forever "saved" by believing in "the blood".
What do you mean 'people think of jesus like you said'? I think of Jesus in all ways that can be possible, including the right way.
A blood sacrifice to pay for our transgressions. How is that any different from the Aztecs sacrificing their virgins to appease the sun god?
What is actually required of God is the sacrifice of the self (my way of thinking, which is naturally in opposition to God's), which was perfectly exemplified by God sacrificing Himself (His son Jesus) physically, so we can learn to sacrifice ourselves spiritually (in the mind).
You may be thinking of the verse in 1 John, that says:
Jesus Christ gave his life for all who have ever lived or ever will live. He did so, because it was required of God, not out of cruelty, but out of love (self sacrificial love).
I don't think so.
God's Word defines sin as the transgression of the law over 40 times in scripture. The law teaches mankind how to think according to "God's way" of thinking.
It may mention that many sins that are punishable by death but there are not that many places that say that the punishment for "sin" is death.
The punishment for sin is death as also recorded over 40 times in scripture;
The Passover is not, and never was, a "sin" offering.
God required a "Passover sacrifice" for the removal of sins.
Interesting theory but not one supported by the Bible.
He required a man, born physical to live a life without sin and yet still die (pay the penalty/death without committing the crime/sin).
Say again?
Jesus Christ's death was a sacrifice from God for us, not a sacrifice from Jesus to God.
That is basically what it "boils down to" as you say.
But it boils down to many fervently held beliefs and ideas held by Christians and Catholics about the world and the bible and jesus, are wrong.
originally posted by: tetra50
I was raised on the belief that God is loving, forgiving
The crux of what I am trying to get to, is the whole idea of "SACRIFICE." Is that really a good thing?
Why should anyone die or pay for someone else's sins?
Doesn't that create a "chain" of behavior whereby we are all mop heads, exchanging our identities, and everyone is "cleansed" by lying about who Christ is, thereby perpetuating the same horror over and over, and one individual paying for that over and over……
I was trying to summarize the type of belief that I thought Fungi was talking about.
A blood sacrifice to pay for our transgressions. How is that any different from the Aztecs sacrificing their virgins to appease the sun god?
And do you think that Christianity is immune to having some of that "mockery" filtering in from the demonic realm?
Where do you think the demonic realm got the basis for their mockery from?
OK, seems you admit to the doctrines of Christianity being tainted.
From ancient paganism, to modern Christianity; Satan has filled the religions of men with mockery/false symbolism.
So then do you think the whole thing was just an object lesson with no real intrinsic meaning?
What is actually required of God is the sacrifice of the self (my way of thinking, which is naturally in opposition to God's), which was perfectly exemplified by God sacrificing Himself (His son Jesus) physically, so we can learn to sacrifice ourselves spiritually (in the mind).
The proceedures described would seem primitave to us today.
Seems rather primitive. And to think we still invest in such principles today...our evolution is positively crawling.