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California Shootings Elliot Rodger Conspiracy.

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posted on May, 27 2014 @ 10:24 PM
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a reply to: JudgeEden

Because, Eden, the whole point I'm getting from people saying this is a conspiracy is by what the father is saying, how he wants gun control, so it's a conspiracy now. The OP is making it seem like someone else did this, like the government for example, and they're now trying to pass new gun control laws.

That's why they're roping the dad into this, because he lost his child and wants gun control, so it's a conspiracy by the government to get support for gun control laws.




posted on May, 27 2014 @ 10:33 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 10:52 PM
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It's no conspiracy. The guy was just not a normal functioning human. It's just statistics and chance that he turned out this way.

The only reason guns are being mentioned is because that's the learnt response in America after a shooting.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 10:57 PM
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Devil79 has a great post where he outlines several key points, on page 9 of this thread, with #6 asking why we are being exposed to his manifesto and plethora of YouTube videos...

I can answer #6 for you. We are seeing the videos and manifesto, which I read the entire thing over the weekend, because it is easy for us to rally against him. Our world is over-sexed, obviously. Trust me, I'm not complaining just saying. We all have sex so it is literally all of us against him, an easy enemy. If there is an anti-gun agenda in his manifesto, which I did not pick up on, then it would be easy for the reader to come together and rally against Elliot Rodger and thus against guns.

His manifesto was amazing, complete with real blonde girls who turned him down and are traceable like Monette Moio, and it inspired me to read the unabomber's manifesto again.

Upon reading his manifesto I simply summed him up as a deranged lunatic but I could be wrong.
edit on 27-5-2014 by LooseLipsSinkShips because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 10:59 PM
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a reply to: cocointelpro



1.) I had not invoked reverse onus concerning my claims about the influence of fraternities/sororities


I refer you to page 16. Your exact words, when I asked, repeatedly for evidence to back your claims, were:



Concerning the comment regarding that proof is reliant on the accuser, In cases involving reverse onus, the accused must disprove an imposed presumption. This means that the accused must present evidence proving that they did NOT commit the crime.


So, either you were using it as a defense against calls for evidence, or you were adding a totally irrelevant piece to the conversation. Which was it?





2.) I had never claimed this is solely about masonry. I merely claimed that the issue presented here concerning fraternities/sororities and the notion of elitism they present may be extrapolated to society in general, especially when we consider organizations like freemasonry
I refer you to page 13:

your exact words:



Fraternities, sororities, and the social expectations that they push on college campuses had everything to do with this. Sure, the shooter was delusional and had problems, but had cultural expectations not been as they were, this would of not happened. You can spare the insults suggesting im on drugs.


and page 12:



I will remind everyone once again why this has to do with freemasonry.

The fact that a minority of the population causes inequality, whether they are part of a college fraternity or a group like the freemasons means that they have unfair advantages over others, it is certainly a contributing cause to a case like this. It's because others have an unfair advantage in society, or a college campus, that crime is committed period. This case highlights an important problem in society, why poor people commit crime, why those who feel inadequate commit crime, why elitists get away with rape and sexual assault.

This is not to excuse crime, but rather to look at the cause of crime in order to prevent crime.
"The cause of the crime". Your words.




These things would not necessarily stop if these organizations did not exist. I had also mentioned this has much to do with cultural expectations of western society, as elaborated in the shooters manifesto.


I refer you to page 13.

I asked:




Do you honestly think that if frats, sororities and the masons went away that all idea of attraction and seeking an attractive mate would go away?



and your very succinct answer?

same paragraph, from your response:





Yes


This is getting silly.





Other cultures do suffer the problems of violence - one cannot refute this.


I refer you to page 13.

your exact words:



Thats because of the previous point which I had mentioned - cultural expectations of the west. The "hot girls" gravitate towards the "alpha male". This standard that isn't replicated in other cultures. Consider locations like India where marriage is arranged, or places like the middle east where there are similar standards. That's not to say that those cultures are correct, but they clearly don't have mass killings or psychotic shooters like you have in western society.


"they clearly don't have mass killings or psychotic shooters like you have in western society".

Is it obvious to anyone else yet?
Are you done? Fed enough?



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:05 PM
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originally posted by: FlyingFox
After reading halfway thru the threads, I find it hard to believe people think the the "mass-shooting mentality" is abnormal in our society. One simply has to point to video games, Grand Theft Auto in particular, so see that mass-killing is also mass-marketing.

I feel sorry for everyone involved.


Video games have absolutely no part in this. No one kills because they played a video game.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:20 PM
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originally posted by: captaintyinknots
a reply to: cocointelpro



1.) I had not invoked reverse onus concerning my claims about the influence of fraternities/sororities


I refer you to page 16. Your exact words, when I asked, repeatedly for evidence to back your claims, were:



Concerning the comment regarding that proof is reliant on the accuser, In cases involving reverse onus, the accused must disprove an imposed presumption. This means that the accused must present evidence proving that they did NOT commit the crime.


So, either you were using it as a defense against calls for evidence, or you were adding a totally irrelevant piece to the conversation. Which was it?

As I had mentioned before, this was regarding your original statement which created the impression that burden of proof only relies on the accused, when this is not the case. Please re-read what I have posted.



2.) I had never claimed this is solely about masonry. I merely claimed that the issue presented here concerning fraternities/sororities and the notion of elitism they present may be extrapolated to society in general, especially when we consider organizations like freemasonry
I refer you to page 13:

your exact words:



Fraternities, sororities, and the social expectations that they push on college campuses had everything to do with this. Sure, the shooter was delusional and had problems, but had cultural expectations not been as they were, this would of not happened. You can spare the insults suggesting im on drugs.


Yes, this was a separate argument from my reverse onus argument with you

and page 12:



I will remind everyone once again why this has to do with freemasonry.

The fact that a minority of the population causes inequality, whether they are part of a college fraternity or a group like the freemasons means that they have unfair advantages over others, it is certainly a contributing cause to a case like this. It's because others have an unfair advantage in society, or a college campus, that crime is committed period. This case highlights an important problem in society, why poor people commit crime, why those who feel inadequate commit crime, why elitists get away with rape and sexual assault.

This is not to excuse crime, but rather to look at the cause of crime in order to prevent crime.
"The cause of the crime". Your words.

I had suggested that I did not excuse crime, rather the discussions presented here are to investigate the cause of crimes, which is true



These things would not necessarily stop if these organizations did not exist. I had also mentioned this has much to do with cultural expectations of western society, as elaborated in the shooters manifesto.


I refer you to page 13.

I asked:




Do you honestly think that if frats, sororities and the masons went away that all idea of attraction and seeking an attractive mate would go away?



and your very succinct answer?

same paragraph, from your response:





Yes


This is getting silly.

"Yes" is a statement that merely acknowledged that to remove fraternal organizations and organizations like them ***could*** result in idea of removing the notion of seeking/attracting a mate. You cannot make the inference that you made from one word "yes". You cannot put words in my mouth. That response "Yes" can be widely interpreted, especially considering I had not mentioned anything else beyond the statement "yes". If you wish to get into a linguistics argument with a law student, go ahead. But its highly off-topic and has nothing to do with the main topic at hand. Once again - linguistics.




Other cultures do suffer the problems of violence - one cannot refute this.


I refer you to page 13.

your exact words:



Thats because of the previous point which I had mentioned - cultural expectations of the west. The "hot girls" gravitate towards the "alpha male". This standard that isn't replicated in other cultures. Consider locations like India where marriage is arranged, or places like the middle east where there are similar standards. That's not to say that those cultures are correct, but they clearly don't have mass killings or psychotic shooters like you have in western society.


"they clearly don't have mass killings or psychotic shooters like you have in western society".

Is it obvious to anyone else yet?
Are you done? Fed enough?


when I had mentioned that you dont have mass killings / psychotic shooters like you have in western society, in other cultures, this was an explicit reference to the difference in the nature of violent acts in other cultures, and their different cultural influences that are different than western society, which I made an example with the suicide bomber.

I don't even need to make the claim of how obvious is it you're grasping at straws to prove an argument you've lost time and time again. The readers of ATS will be the judge on this one.
edit on 5272014 by cocointelpro because: Lignusitics is important!



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:24 PM
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a reply to: cocointelpro

Even when faced with you own words, you deny it.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:26 PM
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originally posted by: captaintyinknots
a reply to: cocointelpro

Even when faced with you own words, you deny it.



I acknowledged all the statements you presented to me with clear explanations, without denial. You just don't seem to understand english.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:32 PM
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originally posted by: LooseLipsSinkShips
Devil79 has a great post where he outlines several key points, on page 9 of this thread, with #6 asking why we are being exposed to his manifesto and plethora of YouTube videos...

I can answer #6 for you. We are seeing the videos and manifesto, which I read the entire thing over the weekend, because it is easy for us to rally against him. Our world is over-sexed, obviously. Trust me, I'm not complaining just saying. We all have sex so it is literally all of us against him, an easy enemy. If there is an anti-gun agenda in his manifesto, which I did not pick up on, then it would be easy for the reader to come together and rally against Elliot Rodger and thus against guns.

His manifesto was amazing, complete with real blonde girls who turned him down and are traceable like Monette Moio, and it inspired me to read the unabomber's manifesto again.

Upon reading his manifesto I simply summed him up as a deranged lunatic but I could be wrong.


This highlights my other important argument, that this could of all been easily avoided had law enforcement agencies charged the shooter with uttering death threats. In the case that law enforcement was aware of the manifesto and/or videos, then went on to ignore it for whatever reasons, then I would say that the law enforcement agency is partially responsible here.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:33 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:40 PM
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*Snip*

Once again, this poster re-iterates the allegations, claims, and evidence that has been ignored by the minority for transparently obvious reasons. It's clear the judgement that most posters on ATS have made concerning this case. The allegations, evidence, and facts that have been presented here have been supported by the majority, while a minority of posters wish to deny everything, straight out. Let's think about something - even if there is no conspiracy behind this, as such posters have suggested - why do they so bitterly defend any allegation, evidence, or facts, which may assist in such an investigation ? Surely an investigation would prove their case.

The ignorance of posters wishing to deny a legitimate investigation for truth and justice concerning reasonable allegations is seen in the petty name calling and put downs that have been part of the posts for that losing side.
edit on 5272014 by cocointelpro because: Further Arguements

edit on 5/27/2014 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:52 PM
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***ATTENTION***

The next person that calls anyone a shill, attacks another member, or does anything but discuss the topic at hand will immediately lose their posting privileges for an indeterminate period of time.

This thread is not about each other, nor is it about who is or isn't a shill.

Get on topic and stay there.

Do not reply to this post.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 11:55 PM
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originally posted by: DEV1L79

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

So, we're 16 pages in. Has anyone presented even a single piece of evidence that backs the idea of a conspiracy?





.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.



hmmmm




10 Questions. (I know you said the parents released the manifesto, but it was police evidence, the police should not have allowed this)



1. The Youtube channel and videos he is always the same age and acts like they were just all made back to back.

2. The Facebook Page seems fake, again always the same age (apart from 1 photos when he is younger) It looks like it has just been made and multiple snaps taken (they can doctor the dates on FB).

3. The photo on Facebook with Elliot sitting on a seat with his dad is definitely doctored, just look at the shading and colours on Elliot and his face compared to the other 2 in the picture.

4. Can a less than medium sized slim guy stab and kill 3 men all at the same time in the same apartment without being taken down? Where were the other two when the first was being killed and probably screaming out, stabbing is a pretty intimate way to kill someone and can take a lot of time, some people who have been stabbed 20 or more times can still survive, the main cause of death through stabbing is bleeding out which can take time. Why not just shoot them?

5. The manifesto he supposedly wrote is screaming anti gun laws. If you read it you can see there is an anti gun thread running all the way through it.

6. Why are we seeing this manifesto? Why are we seeing his videos? why is his Facebook page not shut down? This a murder inquiry, but the public has access to Elliots Facebook, Youtube and videos, a manifesto that is police evidence, in any other murder inquiry all his social media would be closed and evidence would be tightly concealed until after the inquest. (they have closed them now that this question has been raised)

7. The grieving father of one of the victims the next day, coming and doing a press conference for gun control. The majority of the murders were done with knife attacks. it is highly suspicious how Elliot even legally had guns with his mental history and background in California which has the tightest gun control laws in the country. And another thing, there could be reasons for this, but with a name like "Martinez", isn't it odd that the victims father neither looks or sounds the least bit Hispanic?

8. Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut said on Sunday that he wanted to bring back gun-control legislation that was proposed after Sandy Hook but which fell in the Senate.



"Obviously, not every kind of gun violence is going to be prevented by laws out of Washington," Blumenthal told CBS. "But at least we can make a start.



“I am going to urge that we bring back those bills, maybe reconfigure them, center on mental health, which is a point where we can agree that we need more resources to make the country healthier and to make sure that these kinds of horrific, insane, mad occurrences are stopped.”



9. Many eyewitnesses have said there were 2 people in the black BMW. This was the same with Sandy Hook and the Batman shootings were eyewitnesses said they saw multiple murders not just a lone gunman.



10. The connection between, Colorado Batman shootings, Sandy Hook and this one. Sandy Hook is mentioned in the Batman films with a line saying "See how we can bring it down". Elliot's father worked on the film The Hunger Games, the author of the hunger games lives in Sandy Hook. all just coincidence, all have the agenda for tighter gun control.




One more time, to those who didn't read this.......



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:06 AM
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originally posted by: Starling

originally posted by: DEV1L79

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

So, we're 16 pages in. Has anyone presented even a single piece of evidence that backs the idea of a conspiracy?




.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.



hmmmm




10 Questions. (I know you said the parents released the manifesto, but it was police evidence, the police should not have allowed this)



1. The Youtube channel and videos he is always the same age and acts like they were just all made back to back.

2. The Facebook Page seems fake, again always the same age (apart from 1 photos when he is younger) It looks like it has just been made and multiple snaps taken (they can doctor the dates on FB).

3. The photo on Facebook with Elliot sitting on a seat with his dad is definitely doctored, just look at the shading and colours on Elliot and his face compared to the other 2 in the picture.

4. Can a less than medium sized slim guy stab and kill 3 men all at the same time in the same apartment without being taken down? Where were the other two when the first was being killed and probably screaming out, stabbing is a pretty intimate way to kill someone and can take a lot of time, some people who have been stabbed 20 or more times can still survive, the main cause of death through stabbing is bleeding out which can take time. Why not just shoot them?

5. The manifesto he supposedly wrote is screaming anti gun laws. If you read it you can see there is an anti gun thread running all the way through it.

6. Why are we seeing this manifesto? Why are we seeing his videos? why is his Facebook page not shut down? This a murder inquiry, but the public has access to Elliots Facebook, Youtube and videos, a manifesto that is police evidence, in any other murder inquiry all his social media would be closed and evidence would be tightly concealed until after the inquest. (they have closed them now that this question has been raised)

7. The grieving father of one of the victims the next day, coming and doing a press conference for gun control. The majority of the murders were done with knife attacks. it is highly suspicious how Elliot even legally had guns with his mental history and background in California which has the tightest gun control laws in the country. And another thing, there could be reasons for this, but with a name like "Martinez", isn't it odd that the victims father neither looks or sounds the least bit Hispanic?

8. Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut said on Sunday that he wanted to bring back gun-control legislation that was proposed after Sandy Hook but which fell in the Senate.



"Obviously, not every kind of gun violence is going to be prevented by laws out of Washington," Blumenthal told CBS. "But at least we can make a start.



“I am going to urge that we bring back those bills, maybe reconfigure them, center on mental health, which is a point where we can agree that we need more resources to make the country healthier and to make sure that these kinds of horrific, insane, mad occurrences are stopped.”



9. Many eyewitnesses have said there were 2 people in the black BMW. This was the same with Sandy Hook and the Batman shootings were eyewitnesses said they saw multiple murders not just a lone gunman.



10. The connection between, Colorado Batman shootings, Sandy Hook and this one. Sandy Hook is mentioned in the Batman films with a line saying "See how we can bring it down". Elliot's father worked on the film The Hunger Games, the author of the hunger games lives in Sandy Hook. all just coincidence, all have the agenda for tighter gun control.




One more time, to those who didn't read this.......


These are very realistic allegations that could be brought up in a court of law, the problem is that we lack an accused. Rather I believe ATS should always take such clues as presented in "conspiracy theories" as points for investigation. As I had previously mentioned, it's most logical to look at law enforcement agencies, members of the media, and who was influencing members of the victims family (may they forever be in our prayers), people who may exploit individuals at their most vulnerable moments, very much like a funeral home does. From that notion, it's reasonable to suspect that one may exploit a vulnerable individual for political purposes. Just look at 9/11. This event was obviously exploited for political purposes. Victims of this tragedy, and their photos were plastered all over the media. Not too long after, America had a new war to engage in. We all know that tragic events are used for political purposes.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:19 AM
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Another common trait of today's American is an overinflated value of self. We all feel like we are special. For this very reason, we can relate to Elliot Rodger who saw himself as a supreme gentleman and magnificent in every way. How is this important to us? Why can we Relate to him in this one similar & superficial way. Is it because we are all human and humanity was doomed since the garden of Eden or is it so that we can all see a little bit of danger in all of us and rally against that. Perhaps, this way we will all keep a lid on it and roam with the herd mentality. Fall in line sheeple.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:22 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:28 AM
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originally posted by: neformore
a reply to: cestrup

You know, I saw that reply coming too.

I bet if the shooting you referred to happened today, and it got onto ATS, someone would say that it was fake and the woman you claimed you "knew" was an actress, and the father a bad actor.

Denial is a terrible thing, even if it is fashionable.






Denial of what, do you refer.

To the fact that certain bizarre stories get smashed into our faces to make changes in our society that always make it worse?

The only denial we see here, is from people who cannot see deep enough into the reality that we are being had by MORE than human natures, greeds, but by something far deeper.

It is YOUR kinds of ideals that let the world fester in this, while getting mad at those who are finding DIFFERENT ways to see things, that can ACTUALLY lead to something changing for the better.

No, the only real danger we have here is to believe everything hook line and sinker as the programmed have always done.

It is getting BEYOND sickening that we still have these attitudes that we can fix something in a system like this, one that has NOT been built by humanity, but that does everything to frame it that we are the sick individuals, responsible for every dam piece of crap, and that it is the faults of normal patterns , behaviours that we somehow have stumbled ourselves upon.

I really wish you could somehow realize that by pretending that everything is as it says, you are condemning the rest of us to the slave system of fear and sorrow that you feel is being done to us by our NATURAL HUMAN STATE.

Some of us intend to break out of this pattern, but we know the ones that are NOT, and it is the ones who cannot handle emotions, the ones who cannot see conspiracies for what they are, because they cannot even understand THEMSELVES.

The real GRIP needs to be gotten by exposing the real situation this planet has itself in, and that façade is EVER PROTECTED by the cries of the tortured, well TOO BAD, we have had enough of your unknowingly ridiculous claims that only retarded STUPID HATEFUL PEOPLE are responsible for NOT BELIEVING YOUR SYSTEM,

It is time to break out from under the constant defense of the LIARS, THIEVES, ACTORS, MONEY GRUBBERS , that always get to tell us how it is, the defense that comes from those who actually don't know, is the most grave of all.



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:28 AM
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a reply to: cocointelpro


As I had mentioned before, this was regarding your original statement which created the impression that burden of proof only relies on the accused, when this is not the case. Please re-read what I have posted.


I don't follow...I repeatedly asked for evidence of your claims, stating time and time again that the burden of proof is on the accuser. You responding by citing reverse onus, about what, exactly? again, either you are lying and were using it to defend your lack of evidence, or you were bringing up a completely irrelevant legal term to deflect from your lack of evidence.

So which is it?




I had suggested that I did not excuse crime, rather the discussions presented here are to investigate the cause of crimes, which is true
what does this have to do with your claim that fraternal societies were the cause of this crime? again, your words were: "cause of the crime".




"Yes" is a statement that merely acknowledged that to remove fraternal organizations and organizations like them ***could*** result in idea of removing the notion of seeking/attracting a mate. You cannot make the inference that you made from one word "yes".
I asked you a direct question,. You answer, without hesitation, "Yes". Yet now you say I cant infer that your 'yes' meant 'yes'.

Again, you are talking in circles.




You cannot put words in my mouth. That response "Yes" can be widely interpreted, especially considering I had not mentioned anything else beyond the statement "yes". If you wish to get into a linguistics argument with a law student, go ahead.

I asked you a direct, yes or no question, to which you answered "yes". All your deflections wont change that.

Law student? I highly doubt it.




when I had mentioned that you dont have mass killings / psychotic shooters like you have in western society, in other cultures, this was an explicit reference to the difference in the nature of violent acts in other cultures, and their different cultural influences that are different than western society, which I made an example with the suicide bomber.
Here, I'll quote these your own words for you again:

"they clearly don't have mass killings or psychotic shooters like you have in western society"
you went on to defend it by asking:

" Please....give me an example....you cannot say such shootings, such crime is to the same degree as it is in America "

Which, by the way, I provided.

So, all of that said, Id like to ask one more time, very directly: Do you have any evidence to back up ANY of the claims of conspiracy, masonic fault, or anything else in this thread?

And please, if you are going to cite the manifesto, include direct quotes, not blanket statements.
edit on 28-5-2014 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2014 @ 12:40 AM
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a reply to: ParasuvO

The real situation is this. People died at the hands of a mentally ill kid.

Do you really think they didn't?



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