John Mack and Alien Disclosure

My taste for the unwarranted personal assaults . . . repeatedly . . . with impunity, obviously . . . has diminished enough that I don't care to respond much to such personal hostility. I thought there was to be a new standard of civility making such threads welcome for all. I guess that applies only to one perspective/side.

Folks who are immune to learning anything from personal narratives are welcome to continue to avoid learning anything from personal narratives.

The time is fast approaching when such personal narratives will be largely left in the dust of fast intensifying events.

The Pope himself has signaled a significant escalation.

The increased publicity of Dr Mack's research and perspective is similarly interesting in that context.

I wonder what the naysaying rationalizing and explanations will be then.

originally posted by: AlienView

So Ectoplasm8 you as usual demand solid physical evidence as proof - OK it is not yet available. BUT if one accepts the concepts of Quantum Mechanics and what it tells us the existence of parallel universes is not speculative but is fact and only a fool would rule out other intelligences in such a universe - And the importance of the observer still must be part of the observation. In this world observations of alien life when received from people who are judged to be sane and not delusional is significant. The fact that you can not disprove observations judged to be valid by external analysis is all that is necessary for us for now to debunk the debunker.

Alien View, I know you are posting this to another individual, but consider what you have said above -

Quantum Mechanics is a growing theory that may or may not support the existence of parallel universes - it suggests their possibility, according to some, it does not define that they definitely exist. You then say only a fool would rule out intelligent life in such a universe (that we don't know actually exists) and then appear to jump to this supposed life in this supposed alternative universe abducting people in this universe and call such an opinion valid by external analysis?

So you have made at least 4 assumptions there which are only that - assumptions (call it three and a half, Quantum mechanics is a known theory even if it as of yet doesn't validate the rest of your assumptions) and appear to think that by making those assumptions they are somehow fact. Would you say that's a fair assessment?

a reply to: uncommitted
Wrong. I only made one assumption, that being that what I wrote would be understood - apparently that is often not true. I do have another problem though, how would we be able to detect intelligent life in another dimension/universe if so-called intelligent life possessed by Man is not intelligent enough to do so? Do insects and most animalsl perceive the higher level of intelligence possessed by the Humans that rule their environment? Could a dense headed debunker that you might meet on a forum such as this one really accept the existence of alien intelligences even if he were so confronted directly? I know they say they would - I doubt it. In fact one of the reasons for the belief in the 'mythos' surrounding the crash at Roswell, NM and the the supposed existence of alien beings is that how many would believe that what was shown to them was really an alien entity? They would claim hoax, or some unknown animal species - but never would they accept the existence of alien life.

My quote on Quantum Mechanics is just that, a quote by leading physicists who believe that parallel universes are fact
- this is science not science fiction

originally posted by: AlienView
a reply to: uncommitted
Wrong. I only made one assumption, that being that what I wrote would be understood - apparently that is often not true.

My quote on Quantum Mechanics is just that, a quote by leading physicists who believe that parallel universes are fact
- this is science not science fiction

A scientist or group of scientists who believes they are a fact (but the intelligent life existing and being able to breach into our universe for the purpose of abducting individuals leaving no noticable trace is secondary to that I guess)... so, please explain how that persons belief make the rest of it a fact??? I understood what you wrote - if this means this then that means this could happen which means this might be possible and therefore is a fact - did I get that right?

a reply to: AlienView

Even though you say:

Ectoplasm8 is a 'hard-line debunkeer' and is so hard line in his views so as to render them of little value.

I'll respond never-the-less.

I do have another problem though, how would we be able to detect intelligent life in another dimension/universe if so-called intelligent life possessed by Man is not intelligent enough to do so? Do insects and most animalsl perceive the higher level of intelligence possessed by the Humans that rule their environment?

First, this is claimed by believers to involve human to alien interactions. To involve UFOs physically landing and crashing. To involve people being abducted. So, you can't try to excuse this away by fantasy (dimensional) means. Especially when the point of this thread is John Mack claiming these are actually happening and not hallucinations.
Next, We're not on a different level of existence or dimension than animals and insects. We're on a different level of intelligence.
On the scale of intelligence, use a dog as an example. Humans (high intelligence) will see a dog (low intelligence) bark or scratch at a door to go outside. We know this is a form of simple low-leveled communication and we understand that. The dog is attempting to communicate with us in his simple-minded way. We don't ignore it, we interact and respond to it. If you take a feral dog in the same situation, you most likely won't have the same result. The feral dog has no reason, purpose, or desire to try to communicate with humans. They don't understand a result will come out of this communication. Humans aren't the feral dog. Humans are the dog wanting to communicate. Attempting to communicate outside of the species. Any intelligent alien species will recognize our attempts at communication beyond just ourselves.

I point this out because there's a frequently used human to ant - alien to human analogy that's a horrible comparison. If we were a species 100% focused on survival and reproduction and that's it, sure you could equate us to ants. But, we aren't. There's a large portion of people- SETI, NASA, etc. that are actively and obviously searching outside of Earth for other answers. That would be recognized.

Could a dense headed debunker that you might meet on a forum such as this one really accept the existence of alien intelligences even if he were so confronted directly? I know they say they would - I doubt it. In fact one of the reasons for the belief in the 'mythos' surrounding the crash at Roswell, NM and the the supposed existence of alien beings is that how many would believe that what was shown to them was really an alien entity? They would claim hoax, or some unknown animal species - but never would they accept the existence of alien life.

"Dense-headed" in that I want verifiable real physical evidence that we are being visited by alien beings from a planet light years away... Rather than making this occurrence one that's trite and simple believing fantastical stories and weak types of evidence? Okay, I'll happily take "dense-headed".
It's funny how affected and defensive some believers are by opposing views.
What exactly would constitute undeniable evidence of a "real alien entity" in your eyes? A story of one? A photograph? A video? No requirement whatsoever of the object being placed in an unbiased setting and scientifically studied to show without a doubt it's not ours?

originally posted by: Uggielicious
a reply to: AlienView

I'm not trying to hijack your thread but I'm curious as to what happened to the following thread:
JOHN MACK - A major motion picture., page 1 - Above Top Secret
Such experiences leave amazed. John E. Mack A respected psychiatrist, Pulitzer Prize Winner and Harvard Professor undermines his entire ...
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1014014/pg1

It diasappeared and when one searches it is found but when you click on it the page that comes up is a:
404 PAGE NOT FOUND!

Anyone have a clue?

That happened to me also. I even posted a comment about the circumstance of how John Mack died(hit and run as Mack was crossing street, driver later dies in a car crash years later). I entered into a dialogue with a skeptic when he stated that drunk driving was the culprit. I replied they used that same argument for the death of Princess Diana. Someone posted a reply to me and I was going to answer back to him, but when I tried to reply, I got "404 page not found". I don't think the mods would delete the article if the thread was going off topic. I thought ATS encouraged such dialogue. I am going to give the mods the benefit of the doubt on this matter. I suspect that the article was taken down due to poor traffic on subject. Also, ATS could face copyright infringement on said movie production.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

To quote Ectoplasm8:

"Dense-headed" in that I want verifiable real physical evidence that we are being visited by alien beings from a planet light years away... Rather than making this occurrence one that's trite and simple believing fantastical stories and weak types of evidence? Okay, I'll happily take "dense-headed".
It's funny how affected and defensive some believers are by opposing views.
What exactly would constitute undeniable evidence of a "real alien entity" in your eyes? A story of one? A photograph? A video? No requirement whatsoever of the object being placed in an unbiased setting and scientifically studied to show without a doubt it's not ours?

I can understand your point of view - and agree there is still no 'smoking gun'. Absolute, irrefutable proof still does not exist. Remember I started the post here on ATS: "Show Proof of the Existence of ONE Alien Being" - Of course you liked that one as it fits your paradigm - But that post, like this one, was not for your benefit even though it gave you the chance to post more or less exactly the same conclusion you always come to - no absolute proof so assume there is no evidence that they exist. But you see there is a lot of evidence which I, and others, do not believe is as weak as you say it is. Too many sightings, too many reports from otherwise credible people to dismiss as not having a significant meaning. Apparently John Mack, same could be said of computer scientist Jacques Vallee, reached a similar conclusion that other intelligences, not of the normal human type, are interacting with otherwise normal humans. If your going to continue to take the attitude this is not absolute proof of anything I might agree - but so what? It is still interesting enough and happens often enough to allow 'intelligent speculation' that we may be being visited by intelligences from other parts of the universe, or as some theorist such as Jacques Valle concluded, interdimensional. And you don't believe this, that is your right, but accept that speculation and theories will continue until the phenomena is fully understood. And remember, and from what I surmise of John Mack he reached the conclusion that the phenomena experienced by the so-called abductees was more than just a delusion - But exactly what it is and if in fact it is coming from alien intelligence remains to be proven - But the evidence you call weak is nevertheless evidence worth considering and I suppose the strength or weakness of this evidence might still be biased by you viewpoint. So until you can prove that all the alien/UFO phenomena can be proven to be occurring because of natural reasons unrelated to anything alien - the aliens and their theories will remain.

They're real. I've been abducted atleast 3 times that I'm aware of over 10 years (2 incidents, one missing time where I simply vanished and couldn't be found). Perhaps it's been longer.

I can't give any real proof of this, but I don't really feel I need to either because until a dedicated skeptic sees them for themselves they're not going to believe it.

Alien, interdimensional, demonic, etc... I don't really know. What I do know is that they are very advanced and they seem to have the same attitude towards us as we do towards a herd of cattle in the wild. We use devices to track them, see how they act, and in general want them to survive and not do something to get themselves killed but it's not something we see as on our level or worthy of direct sustained contact.

a reply to: AlienView
Here are my issues:

- People that speak with authority when it comes to a case.
9 times out of 10, the information they get are from biased websites, books, or television programs. They do no research for themselves and rely upon biased opinions of others. They continue to spread misinformation.

- People that see an unusual object in the sky, from a YouTube video, or from NASA and immediately think it's a possible UFO/alien.
This is complete opposite of the approach that should be used. Earthly reasons are the default and first. Balloons, birds, bugs, reflections, etc.

- People when asked to give examples of a case that throw a link to a UFO website with 500 "examples". But, shy away from posting their own personal favorites.
I can't argue 500 cases to make a point. Each case is different and can't be given an overall sweep of an answer. Also, to effectively argue a case, you need to have access to clear and free information. Sometimes difficult or not possible at all.

- People that continue to hang on to a case and refuse to allow a rational explanation even when presented with evidence otherwise.
For example, the "Black Knight satellite" has been shown (mainly by James Oberg) to be a trunnion pin cover that got loose during a spacewalk. We have transcripts from the astronauts during the walk saying so. We have videos of what the cover looks like. We have video of the cover actually floating away. We have photographic comparisons of the cover and the "satellite" which show it is exactly the same thing. Even so, people will still hold on to this being something alien.

- People that believe aliens are communicating via crop circles.
One of the most ridiculous branches of this phenomenon. An alien race that talks to humans by pressing down stalks of wheat etc. mainly in fields in the UK. Really? "They've" been doing this for 40 years and have yet to get their message across to us... but they just keep on using the same method? Apparently, these aliens aren't too bright. Oh yeah, it's been shown humans have and are 100% capable of doing this. The default will always be humans creating these until proven otherwise.

- People claiming ancient aliens have created the pyramids and other structures because humans couldn't possibly do it.
First, you can't underestimate human ingenuity and what can be accomplished by many thousands of people. Especially those who build a monument to a deity of some sort. Also, if you follow the history of architecture, you will see humans have built amazing structures through every era and culture for many thousands of years. To assume an alien race came down to build a specific pyramid when there are existing pyramids that show a progression of skill, is ridiculous.

There are many others, but, this is off the top of my head. Have your theories and beliefs, I don't care. But, don't post the existing evidence as evidence enough to show aliens are here or have been here as in fact.

"Deny Ignorance" is the sites motto. Informed and enlightened debate speaking out against ignorance. Ignorance for me- Accepting and piggy-backing on the biased opinions of others or deemed "experts", with no personal research and study into a claim. Leading to further spreading of those claims and misinformation.

What a brazenly screaming example of naysaying disingenuousness . . . lack of awareness . . . being ill-informed . . . or otherwise mystifying double standards pretending to be erudition and a greatly solid analytical 'scientific' perspective on such a topic.

Yet again we see that those who seem to

wail the loudest and most stridently

about "proof"

and "peer reviewed professional journal" articles on the topic . . .

seem to with great haughty dismissiveness throw the same peer reviewed professional journal articles on the trash and ignore their findings entirely.

There have been a few peer reviewed agricultural professional journal articles documenting that

There are several SCIENTIFICALLY MEASURED DIFFERENCES

between hoaxed vs 'other' sorts of 'crop circles.'

1. The plant nodes show evidence of micro-wave like energy impacts.
2. There's often a micro-fine dusting of iron

3. The soil within the authentic circles is dramatically, measurably unusually drier
4. Seeds sown from within the circles sprout quite differently from seeds from outside the circle or from hoaxed circles.

5. magnetic readings are markedly different from background external to the circles.
6. radiation readings are markedly different from background readings external to the circles.

But hey . . . it must take a LOT OF FAITH to believe that drunks with boards on ropes manage to pull off THOSE SCIENTIFIC DIFFERENCES!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

_javascript:icon('')

The peer reviewed agricultural journal articles are listed at

www.earthfiles.com...

Though I think they are behind the subscriber wall.

And I don't have the direct links handy.

a reply to: BO XIAN

I have a few basic questions for you about crop circles since you seem to believe they're alien. I'm confused as to the simple facts... Maybe you can slip back into your 'normal' persona as with the post at the top of page 4. Instead of your flailing arm responses.

- Are the aliens copying our artwork, or are we copying the aliens communications?

- Why would aliens chose to use the exact same method that human beings use? Tamping stalks.

- Why have the number of circles increased as the publicity of these circles increased?

- Why have the aliens become progressively better at making circles as time has gone by? Suspiciously exactly like human beings. Where are the 1970's or 1980's intricate designs?

- Why has every "deciphered" message by the crop circle "experts" never come true? I remember something about the summer Olympics...

- Why would an alien race try to communicate with humans for 40 years by crop circle, only for their messages to continue to go misunderstood. Yet... they continue on year after year after year doing the same thing.

- Why, while 'obviously' being visual creatures, have the aliens not attempted communicate using other type of designs? Letters, numbers, symbols?

- Why would an alien species travel the galaxy, or travel from dimension to dimension, sneak around at night, make coded messages in wheat etc. if part of their purpose was to communicate with humans? Why not create one in front of our eyes?

And now friends it is time for a brief

Interview with John Mack
Psychiatrist, Harvard University

[From PBS Program Nova, Kidnapped by UFOS]

NOVA: Let's talk about your own personal evolution from perhaps skepticism to belief ...

MACK: When I first encountered this phenomenon, or particularly even before I had actually seen the people themselves, I had very little place in my mind to take this seriously. I, like most of us, were raised to believe that if we were going to discover other intelligence, we'd do it through radio waves or through signals or something of that kind.


Quote: I came very reluctantly to the conclusion that this was a true mystery

The idea that we could be reached by some other kind of being, creature, intelligence that could actually enter our world and have physical effects as well as emotional effects, was simply not part of the world view that I had been raised in. So that I came very reluctantly to the conclusion that this was a true mystery. In other words, that I—I did everything I could to rule out other sources, or sexual abuse. Some of these people are abused. But they're able to tell, distinguish clearly the abduction trauma from other forms of abuse. Some forms of psychosis or people making up stories—I could reject that on the basis that there was no gain in this for the vast majority of these people.

.... I've now worked with over a hundred experiencers intensively. Which involves an initial two-hour or so screening interview before I do anything else. And in case after case after case, I've been impressed with the consistency of the story, the sincerity with which people tell their stories, the power of feelings connected with this, the self-doubt—all the appropriate responses that these people have to their experiences.


NOVA: So tell us, please, how literally you intend people to take this? Are you suggesting people are really being snatched from their beds by aliens and experiments on board a spaceship?


MACK: Just how literally to take this, is one of the most interesting and complex aspects of this. And I want to walk through that as clearly as I can. There are aspects of this which I believe we are justified in taking quite literally. That is, UFOs are in fact observed, filmed on camera at the same time that people are having their abduction experiences.

People, in fact, have been observed to be missing at the time that they are reporting their abduction experiences. They return from their experiences with cuts, ulcers on their bodies, triangular lesions, which follow the distribution of the experiences that they recover, of what was done to them in the craft by the surgical-like activity of these beings.

All of that has a literal physical aspect and is experienced and reported with appropriate feeling, by the abductees, with or without hypnosis or a relaxation exercise.

....There is a—I believe, a gradation of experiences and that go from the most literal physical kinds of hurts, wounds, person removed, spacecraft that can be photographed, to experiences which are more psychological, spiritual, involve the extension of consciousness. The difficulty for our society and for our mentality is, we have a kind of either/or mentality. It's either, literally physical; or it's in the spiritual other realm, the unseen realm. What we seem to have no place for—or we have lost the place for—are phenomena that can begin in the unseen realm, and cross over and manifest and show up in our literal physical world.

So the simple answer would be: Yes, it's both. It's both literally, physically happening to a degree; and it's also some kind of psychological, spiritual experience occurring and originating perhaps in another dimension. And so the phenomenon stretches us, or it asks us to stretch to open to realities that are not simply the literal physical world, but to extend to the possibility that there are other unseen realities from which our consciousness, our, if you will, learning processes over the past several hundred years have closed us off.
........."

See complete article here:
www.pbs.org...

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
For example, the "Black Knight satellite" has been shown (mainly by James Oberg) to be a trunnion pin cover that got loose during a spacewalk. We have transcripts from the astronauts during the walk saying so. We have videos of what the cover looks like. We have video of the cover actually floating away. We have photographic comparisons of the cover and the "satellite" which show it is exactly the same thing. Even so, people will still hold on to this being something alien.

What Oberg debunked was some supposed photos of it from I think the 80's. There is still the issue of an object shadowing Sputnik 3, and an object in polar orbit before either the US or Soviets were able to do such a thing. Disproving one doesn't disprove the other unless there's some substantial link between the two.

Here are two other quotes on John Mack from an article in Aeon Magazine:

Growing up alien

"Dr John E Mack was many things to many people. A Harvard-trained psychiatrist, tenured professor, and one of the founders of the Cambridge Hospital Department of Psychiatry (a teaching hospital affiliated with Harvard University), John held an impressive command and was respected in his field. After an early career spent working on issues of child development and identity formation, he won the Pulitzer Prize in 1977 for his psychoanalytic biography of Lawrence of Arabia, entitled A Prince of Our Disorder (1976). Then, in the late 1980s, John put his reputation on the line when he started investigating the phenomenon of alien abduction."

"In the privacy of our home, where he was a regular presence, John was bolder in his claims. Aliens were real — it was just that their existence threatened the dominant logic of our worldview. John attributed society’s failure to account for the abduction experience as a cultural failing. Alien abductees weren’t deranged or mentally ill — we just didn’t have a way of interpreting and understanding what they’d been through. Rather than label these peoples’ experiences as a new disorder or syndrome, John argued that we had to probe into and change our perception of reality to account for this phenomena. The subtext: we had to allow for the existence of aliens."

See whole article here:
aeon.co...

So we see a Harvard Psychiatrist and Pulitzer Prize wining author attesting to the sanity of and validity of the stories told by alien abductees.

Now I ask you who will attest to the sanity of and validity of the hardcore debunkers who will assure you that the alien phenomena is not real and no real evidence exists? Why you may ask if these people are so sure that none of this alien phenomena is real, why are they so obsessed with doing all and everything and presenting all and every agrument they can think of to disprove something which they say there is no evidence to in the first place? I postulate that they are themselves abductees who can not recover from the experience! I say to them get over it! -AlienView

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

I still find assumptions pretending to be insightful erudition

to be

. . . grossly underwhelming.

1. Where did I declare that I thought that the 'crop circles' were caused by ET's?

2. I don't believe there ARE true ET's running around over our planet. Fallen angels pretending--with great support from the globalists co-stooges--to be ET's is a different matter.

3. One of my trusted friends was told that the 'crop circles' are done by black ops folks in front of computer screens using exotic satellite tech.

4. The 'orbs' have also been observed appearing to make the 'circles' incredibly quickly.

5. But hey, if you want to be the champion of the drunks with boards on ropes . . . be my guest.

Why do I waste the energy on writing what I do, even breaking down my points one by one assuming it makes it easier to read, if nothing gets responded to, acknowledged, or even answered?

Maybe I need to use ALL CAPS, Scream in purple,

Double space

My words,

or call people nut-jobs or something?

--------------------
a reply to: BO XIAN

Fallen angles... Black-Ops... Mysterious orbs.
Why not devils, ghosts, or sex-crazed hedgehogs? There seems to be equally compelling evidence for those too. We can't eliminate them, huh? At least "black-ops" is an Earthly answer. Not the answer.. But, an Earthly one never-the-less.

--------------------
a reply to: AlienView

Again, his title, education, and accomplishments mean nothing unless you believe he has magical powers to tell the truth from lies. If he could, he was in the wrong business.
Are these people telling bold-faced lies for sure? We don't know... Are these people telling the absolute truth for sure? We don't know. What can we, or even a Harvard trained professor, glean from that? We don't know for sure!

If that quote is accurate, it was foolish for John Mack to say- "Aliens are real". It's like Carl Sagan saying- "Intelligent aliens don't exist." He would have never made a definitive statement like that. No rational and logical thinking person would. Even when the current evidence doesn't even support intelligent alien life anywhere.

I'm a volunteer abductee of cheese. That's it. Yawn.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: MarrsAttax


FINAL EVENTS SECRET GOVERNMENT DEMONIC UFOS AND AFTERLIFE

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_4?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1400863862&sr=1-4&keywords= nick+redfern
= = =
I'm keenly interested in your responses to it . . . privately or on a public thread.

imho, he does a top flight job of collecting the narratives and interviews together.

Whether they are evil spirits or not says nothing about whether they are alien. I think extraterrestrial OR demonic is a false dichotomy. They can be both evil AND extraterrestrial.

a reply to: EnPassant

Agreed.

And, that was an assumption I held for a number of years . . . maybe a decade or 2.

I've now accepted the evidence that . . . as Jacques Vallee asserts . . . they are evil spiritual entities from a spiritual DIMENSION . . . vs distant planets in our multiverse.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: EnPassant

Agreed.

And, that was an assumption I held for a number of years . . . maybe a decade or 2.

I've now accepted the evidence that . . . as Jacques Vallee asserts . . . they are evil spiritual entities from a spiritual DIMENSION . . . vs distant planets in our multiverse.

Can you say with certainty that 'they' are all evil? The commonly held alien mythology says some are good, some are bad, and others may be indifferent. I often imagine aliens to be in the realm of what is in the occult [and religious] world is considered to be ascended masters who have Man's best interest in mind. There are angels and demons in Western religion and other religions and cultures have their own examples, The Hopi Indians have the Kachinas.

The following quote is from the book "ALIEN INTELLIGENCE" by Stuart Holroyd, Copyright 1979:

"Legends of the culture-bearer from the sky are also found in Egypt, where he is named Osiris, in India [the Vedic god Agni], in Mexico [Quetzalcoatl], and in Iran and China.....
In their ceremonials the Hopi Indians of Arizona still remember the Kachina people, a clan of non-human beings, who guided the Hopis to the lands they made their home and imparted a wealth of occult knowledge to them. This knowledge was the basis of the religion and the husbandry the Hopis practised in their arid region. The Anthropologist Frank Waters, who compiled and published "The Book of the Hopi", based on oral accounts of their traditions and beliefs given by thirty-two contemporary Hopi elders, writes that:

The Kachina people did not come to the Fourth World like the rest of the people. IN FACT THEY WERE NOT PEOPLE. They were spirits sent to give help and guidance to the clans, taking the forms of ordinary people and being commonly regarded as the Kachina Clan.....

According to Hopi cosmology and legendary history the human race inhabited three other planetary worlds before it came to the planet Earth, and in its evolution it must move on to three more worlds yet. Beyond these worlds there lie two other realms, the ninth and last being that of the Creator himself. Man tends to corrupt and destroy his world although with each new emergence he starts out pure. However, a few individuals who lead pure and perfect lives become Kachinas
when they die and do not have to be reincarnated into the plodding cycle of human evolution. They go to another universe, whence they may return periodically to guide man's further evolution and help him in various ways in his present life."

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: EnPassant

Agreed.

And, that was an assumption I held for a number of years . . . maybe a decade or 2.

I've now accepted the evidence that . . . as Jacques Vallee asserts . . . they are evil spiritual entities from a spiritual DIMENSION . . . vs distant planets in our multiverse.

But the false dichotomy still remains! Even other planets have their extra dimensions or spiritual worlds. If I remember correctly Vallee speculated that they get here via the astral plane. They are spirits from another world...they travel through dimensions that connect all spiritual reality. In the spiritual world they can travel from planet to planet.

I have seen these beings. That are not human or native to this world.