Michael Moore comments on the latest American shooting.

a reply to: mclarenmp4

The laws are there already,they just don't seem to care.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Then what's the problem? Lack of enforcement of the laws because I'm sure I read a few years ago that there were more illegal weapons in america than legitimate but i could be wrong. If the criminal justice system came down very hard on people with illegal firearms and it was almost a life sentance then you will see a decline I'm sure
The other issue is also the ease of access to guns by minors, tighten up laws where access to firearms should be locked away safely and if your firearm was used for murder even without your knowledge you should be up on 2nd degree manslaughter or some other charge. If you are not responsible with your weapons then your right to own them should be taken away.

a reply to: mclarenmp4

If you find that you are sending huge numbers to jail then you do it until the message has been gotten over that owning a gun has to be legal and you could then have an amnesty to the people who were jailed during the initial clean up.

a reply to: mclarenmp4
No you don't get it It's nothing to use a gun in a crime ,our LEGAL system is a joke run by cash.If you REALLY want to see a court get worked up, watch how they would act when a pro uses a knife in defense of their self.

I think it's a sheer question of scale, as much as anything else.


(Source)

Now I rather liked Ronald Reagan. I'm the kind of kid who grew up thinking the Alex Keaton character on Family Ties was pretty cool, in fact.

So having said that for context, Reagan was a blithering, flaming IDIOT in what he did to dismantle and all but turn to ruin the Mental Health system our nation once had. It had some pretty dark corners too, I'm certainly aware of that...but the alternative of nothing left us with mental health patients among the population for neglect, not as the best place for either involved.

How many spree killers we see had criminal records like criminals should? Burglaries, Robberies, Grand Theft...anything to show a rather ongoing problem gone postal? Few..if really any I can think of in the high profile ones in recent times. They all had mental health issues though, known and I'd say quite proven by outcome, NOT properly treated. However, it was ....spree killer status makes it a fail. A Spectacular Fail.

Establish a Mental Health system that is there for outcome, not statistic, and we'd do better than trying to ban all dangerous implements.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

Again that's a socialist program and you know how republicans hate socialism but I agree you need to deal with the mental health issue as that is more common than not the reason behind the recent spree killings not only in the U.S but in Norway also.
But the wider problem of gun related crime is just as big an issue as the heavy media attention the spree killings get and I know I have already said it but you need to raise the lives of the people who are in extreme poverty. The standard of the extreme poor in the U.S is as bad as some 3rd world countries and when people have no hope of getting out of their situation it harms the human psyche and many turn to crime and lose their humanity.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Well explain it if I'm not getting it because I'm trying to help you guys find a solution to your current issues.
Every time this debate comes up the same thing happens, one side argues for gun control while the other side think the solution is more guns. The answer is in the middle but lets take emotion out of the debate and discuss it properly.

Because the way I see it if you enforce your gun laws, treat the mentally ill, harsher sentences for possession of an illegal firearm or by an unlicensed person, make the registered owner responsible for the safety of their guns and if not lock them up and take away their right to own a firearm. Full background checks that are screened for mental illness and violent tendencies.

But from what you are saying the courts are corrupt but this type of law could be easily enforced, in possession of an illegal firearm or by an unlicensed user and you go to jail automatically for 10 years. No exceptions to the rule and send a real message that it will not be tolerated any longer.

But as I said in the previous posts you need to deal with the poverty issue otherwise crime will continue to be an issue.

a reply to: Eryiedes

Much like those with blinkers to any view other than their own, you fail to see (intentionally or otherwise) the points I was making. Even a cursory glance at my posts would tell you that I wasn't advocating gun bans but clarifying UK gun laws and suggesting Mr Moore may have a point. In regard to points, you really need to read what people write before any retort — helps with keeping a good dialogue open.

I think he has a good general point. Guns are the easy target but that doesn't address the question of how these people reached such an extreme level of hatred. Alot of mass murderers may have had complex support needs that weren't being identified by their community, allowing them to become isolated and their anger to bubble over and explode. I wonder if it's more common in larger populations eg. China and usa (outside war zones), or if that's just the media giving those countries more profile.

a reply to: beezzer

You mean the lack of dealing with failure early on in ones life could cause problems in the future? Naw, it can't be that simple!

People get so focused on the tool that we forget about the person who misused that tool. Samkent had some good thoughts on the subject and might be right that a lot of these folks would have been confined to hospitals away from society.

Seems to me that no one wants to deal with "hard right" by trying to help these people but would rather take the "easy wrong" of railing against guns. And this is not limited to the far left. The NRA's only answer is to bring more armed people into play. Again I ask, why can we not focus on the individuals who are causing these tragedies. There seem to be similarities such as feelings of isolation, mental illness, rejection, bullying, etc. and yet discussions are always brought back to the tool.

Seems to me that we need to focus on the people and not the tool to solve this problem.

a reply to: Feltrick

Yes you need to deal with the people but you also need to deal with how easy it is for someone to get access to the weapons.
It's tough because for example how could you identify a teenager with psychotic intentions? Teenagers are difficult because at that age especially for males they're being flooded with testosterone and can often have violent mood swings, anger issues etc.. so what do you do give them all a psych evaluation for just being a teenager?
I think if you make people responsible for the safety of their firearms and have tough sentences on the families then you will see a shift of people being more careful how they store their firearms.
But you need a good public health system that works for those in need and not just those that can afford it and deal with mental health seriously.

originally posted by: g146541
First he says....

I no longer have anything to say

And then goes on to rant for the next hour...
How is anyone surprised??
Did he rant about knives or cars as well?
With the way he thinks, he really should be looking to ban spoons!
(Edit)
With all of Mr. Moore's hatred towards the US, he still stays here and does not go to a "safer" country...
Why is that, is the best question.
No other country will listen to his whining and make him famous.

wll its the same rhetorical bull# spewed by another gun loving US citizen claiming they dont have a gun problem. know how many mass shootings we have in Australia? havent had one since Port Arthur, 18 years ago.

They took all our semi-autos and we already had fairly restircted access to firearms. And very few shootings since except for mostly either Bikie or Middle eastern crime gangs shooting echother. How can you argue with that logic? Your whole country in insane with gun love.

Gun control must not be confused with gun confiscation, many Americans refuse to accept that there is no gun problem, which in itself is a bigger problem in my opinion. These are all needless deaths that could so easily have been avoided with proper and stringent control, there is a middle ground here but nobody is prepared to give an inch. Sadly these terrible acts will continue again and again, threads like this one will be on going on ATS until people demand change. I know I would rather have my family and friends around me than any right to carry a gun, but I am not American nor would I ever wish to be one.

a reply to: BeReasonable
Why would a freedom of a people halfway around the world be such a bother to someone?
Keep your nose in your own turmoil, when the Chinese come to take over your lil island you will wish you had what we have.
Oh that's right, the USMC is over there protecting you with American guns.
How do you feel about an invading army on your soil??
I don't have to worry so much, why???
Cuz, Mericuh.

a reply to: g146541

Yeah those scary chinese better watch out for them, how many times have they invaded countries around the world again in their entire history and I'm not talking about regional battles in ancient history. I'm sure that'll probably have been none wouldn't it?
But yeah better to have the security of the U.S on their soil, they are obviously only there to help their Aus brothers and sisters. Yeah right, strategic much.

originally posted by: redeyeblue
Gun control must not be confused with gun confiscation, many Americans refuse to accept that there is no gun problem, which in itself is a bigger problem in my opinion. These are all needless deaths that could so easily have been avoided with proper and stringent control, there is a middle ground here but nobody is prepared to give an inch. Sadly these terrible acts will continue again and again, threads like this one will be on going on ATS until people demand change. I know I would rather have my family and friends around me than any right to carry a gun, but I am not American nor would I ever wish to be one.

Well...

To bad.

We've already taken up residency of the Earth, and have staked a claim on the Moon.


This Country,

The United States of America

Is our house.


Central and South America are

our front Yard, Canada the attic.


The rest of the world is our Back Yard.


And just incase the reader is French and the previous wasn't rude enough one can remain sneer-full and snarky of things American, but the arms we bear may just be for a coup of the rest of the planet. America, of course, is our house and we have invited the entire world to join us. Here. We have aid and programs for everyone. Join us. We are way past ready to start living on a solar system wide scale, and some of us are getting pretty fed up with the media-crisis-merry-go-round always interrupting the dialog and ending the space programs.


TLDR: What liberals fail to understand is that we are not interested in charming them over to our point of view. We won the last round on gun debate. They seem to be laboring under the delusion that it is now our imperative to engage them in discussing our culture and pitching how wonderful it is. No. Go away .


Mike Grouchy

a reply to: redeyeblueJust why are the lives of those who were stabbed worth any less than the lives of those who were shot??
I'll tell you why, they do not fit into your little agenda.
Do you even know that the first 3 lives lost "that could have been avoided if we had gun control" were not killed with a gun??
Just what if the stupid little twit actually knew how to handle the precision machine he was driving? He would have succeeded in killing even more.
Just sit down and find a new hobby, we know your agenda and we are sharing it with those who can see and hear truth.

a reply to: mikegrouchy

I'm not anti American, I love what America once stood for. But you are on a path of social decline on so many fronts and unfortunately as long as you have the mindset that you currently hold with regards to how you look at other countries then we are never going to move forward as a species.
I've made a lot of posts in this thread but judging by the lack of replies to them it seems no-one is interested in looking for solutions but stubbornly sticking to ideals that may not be compatible in a 21st century world.
The conservative point of view is one of fear and distrust of his fellow man and that can only be bad for humanity, i'm just glad where I live I have no such fear.

And what boogie man is going to invade world this time, the evil chinese, the evil russians, north korea, who? The only coloniser around the world right now is the U.S, so who should we be scared of?
Scotland has a great relationship with most countries so we have low risk of terrorism and the only time we had a terrorist attack was at Glasgow airport and this sums up the Scottish mentality, the terrorist who had just driven an exploding jeep into the terminal started attacking the police and got beaten up by a baggage handler and subdued. Only person killed was the other terrorist who set himself on fire and was kicked to the ground and put out but died later of his burns. This was in response to the U.K going into Iraq which Scotland actually opposed.
There is a reason why the Scottish are universally liked because even though we were colonisers as part of the U.K we were usually the ones that supported freedom movements like the Bolivarian revolution and even in the U.S civil war.

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
a reply to: mikegrouchy

I'm not anti American, I love what America once stood for. But you are on a path of social decline on so many fronts and unfortunately as long as you have the mindset that you currently hold with regards to how you look at other countries then we are never going to move forward as a species.

I disagree categorically and outright.

I am clinging to the last vestages of healthy gun culture where experienced men inducted the young into safety and self responsibility.

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
I've made a lot of posts in this thread but judging by the lack of replies to them it seems no-one is interested in looking for solutions but stubbornly sticking to ideals that may not be compatible in a 21st century world.
The conservative point of view is one of fear and distrust of his fellow man and that can only be bad for humanity, i'm just glad where I live I have no such fear.

The only problem is you do-goodie-goodies who keep trying to interject their solutions. Corrosive and poisonous though it is. Never actually talking about firearm safety, or civic duty but always plenty of emotionally charged words like; fear, distrust, and bad.

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
And what boogie man is going to invade world this time, the evil chinese, the evil russians, north korea, who? The only coloniser around the world right now is the U.S, so who should we be scared of?
Scotland has a great relationship with most countries so we have low risk of terrorism and the only time we had a terrorist attack was at Glasgow airport and this sums up the Scottish mentality, the terrorist who had just driven an exploding jeep into the terminal started attacking the police and got beaten up by a baggage handler and subdued. Only person killed was the other terrorist who set himself on fire and was kicked to the ground and put out but died later of his burns. This was in response to the U.K going into Iraq which Scotland actually opposed.
There is a reason why the Scottish are universally liked because even though we were colonisers as part of the U.K we were usually the ones that supported freedom movements like the Bolivarian revolution and even in the U.S civil war.

This isn't about how well tailored the clothes from the libtard crown are, or how comfortable one all feels with such enlightened gentle handedness, it's about ARMAMENTS. Some of us are more than qualified. If you are not here to discuss safety get off the firing range!














Mike Grouchy

If the pundits want to keep playing
this game, raise the stakes on them.
They lost the last round, and have
yet to admit it. Pushing forward
from a failed position should cost
more.

Perhaps we could defund the dept
of homeland defense and just put
Bazookas on the market. A surface
to air missile in the possession of
the NYFD would have changed the
course of history.

Or the TSA can just admit that
they are here to grab my junk and
not for anyone's safety at all.


Mike Grouchy