For God so loveth the world...

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
"if you say you believe in Jesus you will receive the world for eternity",

Nope. That's not what it says at all. It says that if you believe in Him you will have everlasting life and not perish. That's SPIRITUAL ... not organic and Earthbound. Sorry, but the premise of this thread is wrong.

I've scrolled through this entire thread looking for the point you highlight.
Arguments built upon false premises only produce false conclusions.
Six pages worth.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
"if you say you believe in Jesus you will receive the world for eternity",

Nope. That's not what it says at all. It says that if you believe in Him you will have everlasting life and not perish. That's SPIRITUAL ... not organic and Earthbound. Sorry, but the premise of this thread is wrong.

Well, even though John 3:16 is called the Little Bible, it's not the whole Bible obviously, and though I understand that handling more than one verse at a time (multitasking eh?) can be quite exhaustive for the usual meek Christian-- I would expect anyone who is discussing NT knows about the Sermon at Mount Olives, where Jesus delivers his speech explaining among other things that even the stupid ones (the meek) should feel lucky and blessed, for they will (if nothing else) inherit the Earth - "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth".

The general Christian reads this verse to mean that 'being meek' is an ideal and that inheriting the Earth is a good thing that should be sought after. It's not. It's the greed and the fear of being left out doing the thinking for them. Being stupid is and has always been stupid. Jesus pointed this out and further showing that even if you are stupid and hurled up in darkness, there is light in that darkness. Inheritance, even for the one with nothing to expect. But as the story goes: "The light shone in the darkness, but the darkness did not receive it". And that's the point of it all: Common Christians just don't get it.

But address the point made please.
You twist and distort what John 3:16 says, using this distortion as the premise in your argument.
As Apostle Peter declares, the source of error is the twisting and distorting of scripture done by ignorant and unstable minds.
See, it's not the scripture -John 3.16 states what it does.
But your mind has twisted what it actually states, in to something that it does not state.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

"For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him,
should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The above quote, often referred to as 'the Little Bible', John 3:16, is one of the most cryptic verses in the good book. It's not only showing corruption in motion, "if you say you believe in Jesus you will receive the world for eternity", John displays the exact same Modus Operandi as Satan on his encounter in Luke 4: "Worship me and I will give you the world".

Your error is here.
In which case, your entire argument is false.

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

originally posted by: Year1
But address the point made please.

That even you have missed that my OP contains a couple more than one bible reference? John 3:16 is highlighted in the OP and referred to in the title, true, but it's not the only verse I found my argumentation upon. Call back when you have read the whole thing, absorbed and understood it, and then read what you wrote again. You seem like a bright guy, you'll do just fine.

You twist and distort what John 3:16 says, using this distortion as the premise in your argument.

Are you sure? Ach, I wish it was possible to make tables here, would've been great to show Jesus' and Satan's offers side by side. I can do it another way of course, maybe I'll do that later. Good idea.

As Apostle Peter declares, the source of error is the twisting and distorting of scripture done by ignorant and unstable minds.
See, it's not the scripture -John 3.16 states what it does.
But your mind has twisted what it actually states, in to something that it does not state.

Some clever chap once said; "Genius is the art of the insane", and even Paul expresses hope that people would tolerate his insanity (2 Cor 11). Lazarus, Jesus' best friend, was mad as a hatter. This whole Bible is madness, it's all madness, hearing God speak inside your head, seeing visions of winged men and hydraheaded bear-cats with horns and people riding clouds and speaking donkeys.... Coocoo! And you insinuate I am mad? Damn right I am. Now at least. "It takes a fool to remain sane".

originally posted by: Year1
Your error is here.
In which case, your entire argument is false.

External quote with no source link: "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Hmmm. What a sneaky approach. So crafty and subtle. Reminds me of home. Like you say, which is well understood and agreed upon, is that my problem here is stupidity. But whose stupidity? It's not me who expect the Earth and eternal bliss for a blind testimony to a guy I only know from a book of a few hundred pages. Where it says he did quite a stirr a few days before Passover back in the thirties. Grand theft donkey, break-in and entry, occupying an empty penthouse. Revolt and armed assault on a Roman soldier... Good luck with your eternal life, you'll get it even cheaper from me. Or wait, stopp the presses! I'll throw it in for free: When people ask if you were with Jesus or if you must give testimony. Just say, "no comment, and I refuse to say anything else until my lawyer is present. And I want a cigarette!"

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

That isn't even close to what is said in those passages. If you actually want to discuss them, post them in full. Other wise, I have to assume you simply want to be contrary.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I'm dealing with quotes that promise certain things to certain people. Are you saying there is context that shows Satan didn't promise Jesus the world? Is there context that shows Jesus don't say the world belongs to the meek? Is there Anything in the bible that says Jesus didnot come to the world?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I'm dealing with quotes that promise certain things to certain people. Are you saying there is context that shows Satan didn't promise Jesus the world? Is there context that shows Jesus don't say the world belongs to the meek? Is there Anything in the bible that says Jesus didnot come to the world?

You aren't posting the quotes, however, and when you do, you aren't representing them accurately. Your premise is that Satan promised the world, and so did God, so Satan must be God, but that is flawed, because your verse is about God promising eternal life, not the world. Nor does God ever promise that we can rule the whole place like some dictator, which is what Satan offers. Plus, it isn't Satan's to offer. His time is very limited.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I'm dealing with quotes that promise certain things to certain people. Are you saying there is context that shows Satan didn't promise Jesus the world? Is there context that shows Jesus don't say the world belongs to the meek? Is there Anything in the bible that says Jesus didnot come to the world?

You aren't posting the quotes, however, and when you do, you aren't representing them accurately. Your premise is that Satan promised the world, and so did God, so Satan must be God,

Eh. No. If you read what I said, I simply said God and Satan tried to sell the world to the deepest kneeler. If I try to sell you insurance and someone else tries the same thing, it doesn't mean we are the same person or even representing the same company. See? Satan and God shows the same MO.

but that is flawed, because your verse is about God promising eternal life, not the world. Nor does God ever promise that we can rule the whole place like some dictator, which is what Satan offers. Plus, it isn't Satan's to offer. His time is very limited.

What's the difference if God or Satan promises something? Is what Satan does automatically evil, while what God does automatically Good? Don't you know that both Good and Evil comes from God?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Eh. No. If you read what I said, I simply said God and Satan tried to sell the world to the deepest kneeler. If I try to sell you insurance and someone else tries the same thing, it doesn't mean we are the same person or even representing the same company. See? Satan and God shows the same MO.

What's the difference if God or Satan promises something? Is what Satan does automatically evil, while what God does automatically Good? Don't you know that both Good and Evil comes from God?

What God promises isn't about "selling" the world to anyone. If you read the whole Bible, or heck, just Genesis, you would see that God gave Man dominion over the earth already. It was created for us. Promising that the meek will be in charge someday simply means that gentle behavior will win out over aggressive behavior. Peaceful people over attackers.

Satan can't sell something he doesn't own. He's a con artist. "Come buy this bridge." Temporary power, temporary this or that. He isn't in charge, and nothing he might offer will last. What God offers is the real deal. That's the difference. One created it all, and the other is a counterfeit scam artist, trying to pretend he's God.

Good is following God's laws. Evil is disobeying them.

What God promises in the verse from your initial post is eternal life. What Satan promises is not even real.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Whatever. Good luck. And BTW, before you're leaving, can you please use your yathed and do what you know you have to do. For you DO have it with you I hope. It is mandatory in "the Law".

I would just like to share a thought that I have entertained lately . That is...that Jesus who is by description the Alpha and Omega is in essence both sides of the duality within humanity. He is the Justice and the Mercy of God. He is both the Justifier and the Judge. The Bible says that Mercy (Alpha/Jesus) must triumph over Judgement (Justice/Satan). When we think of this from a pure logic point of view we can see the wisdom within this statement.

Here is why I say that.... If Justice was all that existed of God then who could be saved ? All of us have commited acts outside of the realm of righteousness and therefore Justice could rightly condemn all of us. Satan is callled the Accuser of the brethren ( Justice in action ). Through the sacrafice of Jesus ( Alpha/ Mercy) we are able to escape condemnation by acknowledging our failure to always do the right thing. In so doing we are in essence tapping into the infinite quantum energy sown by Alpha. Jesus said I lay down my life and I have POWER to take it up again. It is said in the Bible that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and that He and the Father are One ( seed of eternal quantum energy ). Only by having the eternal energy inherantly present within him can His sacrafice be valid ( mortal man cannot make eternal sacrafice ). By sowing that seed of energy into the conscious realm of humanity through His sacrafice it becomes available to all who choose to accept its existence.

The Bible also says that Jesus became sin for us ( Scapegoat lead into wilderness ). Only in becoming the scapegoat can He say that He is with us ALWAYS ( in darkness as well as light ). And when He is fully lead into the wilderness ( Which IMO only began at Gethsemane ) He will come to His own end at which time He ( Satan/ Justice ) will have to look unto (Alpha/ Mercy ) in order to be delivered and thus complete the cycle. Therefore Mercy must triumph over Judgement.

Harry

PS. please forgive typos the older I get the more I forget

a reply to: HarryJoy

To me there is no magic involved in the survival of the Jebus. Jesus had a plan, and it worked, then all the magic was added in order to set the stage for the new religion. The Roman soldiers loved him, the wise among the rich, even Pilate, they all knew him, and they all needed his dream to get out of their mess. Jesus was the X-factor, Jesus was the Idol for the new age. The remedy to make all things right. People were tired of Zeus, but here's Je-Zeus, walks on water, paint the pig kinda thing. Like: "Now whatta we do?" -- "Jesus? Anyone?"

a reply to: HarryJoy

The Bible also says that Jesus became sin for us ( Scapegoat lead into wilderness ). Only in becoming the scapegoat can He say that He is with us ALWAYS ( in darkness as well as light ).

In the context, it looks like by saying "made sin", Paul is referring to how Jesus had to step down, literally and figuratively, from some sort of celestial being (a god), to mortal flesh, as a human in this world corrupted by sin.

The scapegoat is a carrier of sin placed on him, then given to the demons of the desert, the enemies of mankind, where these sins would have originated from.

originally posted by: jmdewey60

The scapegoat is a carrier of sin placed on him, then given to the demons of the desert, the enemies of mankind, where these sins would have originated from.

The Scapegoat, is the "Goad of Azazeel", are you saying Jesus is the Scapegoat? Need refs?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The Scapegoat, is the "Goad of Azazeel", are you saying Jesus is the Scapegoat? Need refs?

No.
I don't see the Book of Leviticus as being prophetic.
I'm suspicious of it (the book mentioned) as being fabricated after the fact, describing what they were already doing (for whatever reason) but putting it in a setting as if it was according to direct commandments from a sort of made up character, Moses.

a reply to: jmdewey60

All I know is that once Jesus had control of a Legion, and they all ran into death for his sake. Prophetic? Azazeel's goad is a peculiar thing. It is a sacrifice, but it is set free. Sounds good right? Well thing is that Azazeel taught man to make all kinds of weapons, well, he got the blame anyway. But thing is Azazeel's goad was chased through the wilderness and quite often ended in a bloody mess by the foot of a cliff. It was a way to keep the old hunting techniques alive.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Prophetic?

That is the idea that a lot of people have about Jesus, as if there was a sort of script written out that Jesus had to play out.
I don't see Leviticus being a set of orders for Jesus to follow, but rather the thing that Jesus came to get rid of.

People back in primitive societies could easily imagine that there were deserted areas because they were the haunts of demons who would kill anyone who tried to live there.
The scapegoat seems to play into those fears, that their desire for human death could somehow be assuaged by offerings, and they could be tricked into taking a cursed animal loaded up with sins.

MY Truth be told..

Truth is truth

Facts are facts

Try this

For God (your creator -man,animal,robot lol)
Love the world (and everything in it)
That he have his son ( that's you, us, every living thing )
That who so ever believe in you ( being the leader/master of your own craft)
(Who ever believes in or follows in your footsteps)
Shall not parish (die,to be forgotten, to live without a purpose is true death)
But have everlasting life ( shall live eternally, be remembered, leave there mark for the sake of humanity expanding and growing)

When u realize that your "Jesus" you'll wake up and realize this truth...

They say before we can change the world
We have to change ourselves

So transform.. Be whatever you want to be
Do whatever you want to do
It's all Good in His eyes
We need black as much as we need white
We need the negative things in life so we can appreciate the positive
Respect the cycles in life
And You'll realize we are all Gods Children

And our sole mission is to go into the world and preach the gospel to every living creature)

And we do that by simply living and learning.. Teaching and influencing

God didn't make life complicated... Man did