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For God so loveth the world...

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posted on May, 25 2014 @ 02:06 PM
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originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Luke 4 - Jesus doesnot want world.
John 3 - God puts Jesus in world
Matt 5 - God gives world to meek people


After Satan had failed in selling the world to Jesus, God pumped up the value of the world by inserting his Son into it and dumped it on the market taxing it as inheritance. That's what the text says. Ancient pump and dump and luring stupid people in on the bogus deal.



Only part of the picture, you conveniently leave out the promise of a "new heaven and earth"

Revelation 21:1

and

Isaiah 65:17

"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind"


Satan offers the crappy version of earth


Crappy version? How so?


“The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.” (2 Pet. 3:7)


Destruction? As in total annihilation? Not even our souls left?
edit on 25-5-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 25 2014 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Luke 4 - Jesus doesnot want world.
John 3 - God puts Jesus in world
Matt 5 - God gives world to meek people


After Satan had failed in selling the world to Jesus, God pumped up the value of the world by inserting his Son into it and dumped it on the market taxing it as inheritance. That's what the text says. Ancient pump and dump and luring stupid people in on the bogus deal.



Only part of the picture, you conveniently leave out the promise of a "new heaven and earth"

Revelation 21:1

and

Isaiah 65:17

"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind"


Satan offers the crappy version of earth


Crappy version? How so?


“The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.” (2 Pet. 3:7)


My protestant Geneva bible has this to note about 2Pet 3:7:

"Thirdly, he pronounceth that it shall not be harder for God to burn heaven and earth with fire in that day which is appointed for the destruction of the wicked, (which thing he will also do) than it was for him in times past to make them with his only word and after them to overwhelm them with water."

Doesn't seem to support your claims in any way, only that Peter boasts of God's might and how easily he can have fire and brimstone rain over the Earth. There is a warning for our time about a certain prophet who will make fire come down from heaven. Look it up, Jesus doesn't like that prophet if we are to believe the Apocalypse that is.



posted on May, 25 2014 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

After Satan had failed in selling the world to Jesus . . .
It doesn't say "Satan". In Matthew, it says, Devil and tempter.
There is a cross-reference to Deuteronomy 8,

2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.
(2011 NIV)
The implication being that this was allowed by God.
You see in the Book of Hebrews a reference to how Jesus was "tempted in all things as we were".
There doesn't seem to be anything specifically recorded in the gospels that fits that description other than this story.
Seeing how Hebrews was written to the supposed Hebrews (people who were Jewish converts to Christianity), when the writer says, "We", he maybe means 'the Hebrews', rather than just people in general.

My personal view on the nature of the temptation itself, it is an allusion to Moses in the wilderness herding goats or whatever, going to look at the burning bush, and meeting with an angel who demands the same reverence from Moses as if he was God Himself.
Jesus sees through the guise and realizes that his own destiny is to surpass that old representation of God, and to create a kingdom himself which is free from the sins of the world but exists in the spiritual plane.



posted on May, 25 2014 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: TinfoilTP

Only part of the picture, you conveniently leave out the promise of a "new heaven and earth"
Revelation 21:1 and Isaiah 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind"
Satan offers the crappy version of earth
The Isaiah description of the new earth is, I think, obviously metaphorical, with straw eating lions, friendly wolves, and dust eating snakes.

The new earth in Revelation is new by declaration,

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!”
rev. 21:5 (2011 NIV)

who says that the water of life will be given, something repeated by Jesus in the gospels, so isn't a literal new world but is one way of saying the gospel marks the beginning of a new and better age of earth.
edit on 25-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2014 @ 06:19 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

After Satan had failed in selling the world to Jesus . . .
It doesn't say "Satan". In Matthew, it says, Devil and tempter.


Sure you're not splitting hairs here? The Greek has Diablos here. Devil, a word introduced into English at the time the Gypsies came to the Isles with their word for God being Devel-- in an attempt to demonise a culture and an ethnic minority by changing a letter in the word and inserting it into the bibles, thus spreading the idea that the Gypsies are are devil-worshippers. The word 'devel' is 'god' in Romani which is an Indo-Eurpoean language. We see the same word in Sanskrit, 'deva' and Greek 'theos', Latin 'deus', they are all variants of the proto-Indo-European word for 'god'. So by using the word Devil for Diablos? It's about as horrific as it is to call him Lucifer, for Devil means God and Lucifer means Morningstar. Neither of these two words, devil and lucifer were around at the time the bible-quotes containing them surfaced. This shows how the pen is mightier than the sword. And it also shows anachronistic forgery in motion.


Jesus sees through the guise and realizes that his own destiny is to surpass that old representation of God, and to create a kingdom himself which is free from the sins of the world but exists in the spiritual plane.


Well I normally keep meself from speculating around Jesus' soul or destiny, for none of those are fixed entities, but ever-changing and ever-living eternal expressions of the divine man.



posted on May, 25 2014 @ 07:15 PM
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a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Neither of these two words, devil and lucifer were around at the time the bible-quotes containing them surfaced.
The English language didn't exist when the New Testament was written, so we have a translation.
The actual person, if you take the story literally, was likely some sort of demigod not officially recognized by the religion that Jesus belonged to.
I have a book on the subject, Temptations of Jesus in Early Christianity (Academic Paperback), by Jeffrey Gibson.
I need to look at it again to see if it mentions the identity of this character other than just, "devil".

Well I normally keep myself from speculating around Jesus' soul or destiny, for none of those are fixed entities, but ever-changing and ever-living eternal expressions of the divine man.
I feel free to change my opinion, constantly, if I think it is necessary.
What I have been sort of fixed on since reading Fourth Gospel and the Jews: A Study in R. Akiba, Esther, and the Gospel of John, by John Bowman, is the idea that the name of God is "Jesus". I say that, and I have to say it just like that to be true, with the understanding that the word, "name" means the character. So you interpret this little saying as something like, The character of God is revealed in the person of Jesus.
edit on 25-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2014 @ 07:23 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

The name of God is a word made up of 72 Hebrew letters starting with the four letters of the Tetragrammaton. It is in that name God reveals his plan, and everything from the creation of the world to it's destruction. Gods origin, Man's destiny, the future of the Sun, it's all written there in that painful name, that thorn in the side of all alive.... May God have mercy and chose his fires wisely.



posted on May, 25 2014 @ 08:54 PM
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originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: jmdewey60

The name of God is a word made up of 72 Hebrew letters starting with the four letters of the Tetragrammaton. It is in that name God reveals his plan, and everything from the creation of the world to it's destruction. Gods origin, Man's destiny, the future of the Sun, it's all written there in that painful name, that thorn in the side of all alive.... May God have mercy and chose his fires wisely.



You would reduce God's word, message to humanity, as nothing more than mere guesswork syllables of an ancient language that will surely fade to distant meaning? What of the actual life, documented that we today can discern from acts and witnesses? Fools are profound, I laugh at them only in hopes that they become aware of their folly. Haha sir, haha indeed.
The term sheeple is not confined to modern politics.



posted on May, 25 2014 @ 10:37 PM
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Wow. Both Christian and Atheist alike have posted some of the most UN-educated posts I've ever read!



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 01:00 AM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

I have a book on the subject, Temptations of Jesus in Early Christianity (Academic Paperback), by Jeffrey Gibson.
He seems to think it doesn't matter if the writer says satan or the devil.
He makes a reference to a character, Mastema

Mastema is an angel who persecutes evil in Jewish mythology. He carries out punishments for God. He tempts humans and tests their faith. In the Zadokite Fragments and the Dead Sea Scrolls he is the angel of disaster, the father of all evil, and a flatterer of God. He first appears in the literature of the Second Temple Period as a personification of the Hebrew word mastemah (משטמה), meaning "hatred", "hostility", "enmity" or "persecution".
en.wikipedia.org...
Gibson also doesn't feel like the devil owned any kingdoms to give to Jesus.
He says that they were already Jesus' by right.



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 03:08 AM
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Excellent topic, and one I feel very strongly about. I've struggled with faith, a hell of a lot, in my life. And it's taken a lot of hurt and happiness to arrive where I am today.

I believe in God, and I believe Jesus came to us to teach us two very important things. And he blatantly told everyone what they were. No cryptic messages or vague prophecy. Straight up, "Wanna go to Heaven? Just do this."

First, from Mark 12:30...

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.



Now, before you say "Wait a second! That's a Goddy thing!" re-read it. Specifically, the third thing we must love God with. Our minds.
He's not telling us to blindly follow the words of those around us. He's telling us to express our love for God with the most beautiful gift He gave to us. The human mind is probably the greatest thing on the planet. We've used it to map the land, the seas and, slowly, the stars. The mind regulates every aspect of our waking and sleeping lives, and it does it without much conscious thought. And to show we love God we must exercise our minds, even in regards to our faith in Him.
I say that every single person who doubts God exists, or demands evidence or even outright refuses to believe in a creator is expressing the very gifts God wants. In questioning His existence, we are questioning the nature of creation, of existence and of reality itself. And that is what He wants more than anything. He gave us free will so we would use it. He didn't want us to bow our heads and follow the words of someone who claims to be closer to God than us. That's the antithesis of what He desires. It's my (humble) opinion that God Himself is a very firm supporter of ATS's own policy... DENY IGNORANCE!
Expand your mind, cram that gorgeous blob of grey matter with as much stuff as you can get your greedy hands on, and God will be pleased. If what you learn makes you say, "Nope! Can't be a God. No evidence for him." Good! You've learned enough to formulate a conclusion based on evidence you've acquired. Now all you have to remember is the next thing Jesus said right after that...


Love your neighbor as yourself.



And that's it. Be good to each other. Be kind. Say hello to that guy you always see on the way to work looking like he'd much rather be on the way to a poolside bar on a beach. The homeless guy you cross the street to avoid? Buy him a sandwich. It's a small bit of money to you, a grand gesture for him. Simple kindness to your fellow man is all that's needed.
And how do we know that? Well, right after telling us exactly how to get on the VIP list for the party upstairs, Jesus then trumped every single priest, bishop, rabbi and every other made up title those weirdly dressed 'religious leaders' like to prattle on about with just seven words...

There is no commandment greater than these.



The 10 Commandments? Not needed. Waste of good building stone.
Confessing your sins? What's the point? It does nothing for anyone.
Birth control, alcohol abstinence, homosexuality, the consumption of certain meats? Non-issues. More rhetoric from people who are as far from God as you can get.
The TWO Commandments delivered by Jesus (who, if the tale is to be believed, is an avatar of God Himself) do away with the need for religion, the need for worship and the need for those tax dodging scam artists that supposedly preach the word of God.

"Hey, Jesus! How do we get upstairs??"
"Be smart, man. Love one another. See you there."



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 07:14 AM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Neither of these two words, devil and lucifer were around at the time the bible-quotes containing them surfaced.
The English language didn't exist when the New Testament was written, so we have a translation.


And a whole lot of politics to be made in the process obviously.....



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 07:31 AM
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originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: jmdewey60

The name of God is a word made up of 72 Hebrew letters starting with the four letters of the Tetragrammaton. It is in that name God reveals his plan, and everything from the creation of the world to it's destruction. Gods origin, Man's destiny, the future of the Sun, it's all written there in that painful name, that thorn in the side of all alive.... May God have mercy and chose his fires wisely.



You would reduce God's word, message to humanity, as nothing more than mere guesswork syllables of an ancient language that will surely fade to distant meaning?


I can't take the credit for having invented the Shemhamforash (the Name of God, known from the Bible and Kabbalah) which you can see is referred to throughout OT. It's the same thing John refers to as the Word of God. Being anything but guesswork, the Name of God is the key remedy for communicating with God. In the time of Enosh, son of Seth "...they began to call upon the Name of YHWH." (Genesis 4:26) which is considered a sin by most rabbinical commenters as far as I know.

Linkie linkie ==> en.wikipedia.org...



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 06:11 PM
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It all just sounds like the bickerings of lesser gods. One of them still our creator? Sure, maybe, why not. We're a...pet project. But at the "top" level of source? Nah. Too many power-plays and personalities. To add: I'm kind of referring to Old Testament God and Satan. Jesus seems to be an attempt to fix some things and make some things clearer.

And most of us cannot say with any sureness that we know which side is the "right" side. We cannot know how much has been changed, left out or manipulated in the information intended to help us. They ain't doing us any favors.
But, I think we all have the truth in us somewhere to give a light to all these theatrics. It is all just a game anyway.
edit on 26-5-2014 by awakendhybrid because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-5-2014 by awakendhybrid because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 07:56 PM
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originally posted by: JackofBlades
In questioning His existence, we are questioning the nature of creation, of existence and of reality itself. And that is what He wants more than anything. He gave us free will so we would use it.


Trying to make sense of this statement, I understand that IF there is a god , god should understand our skepticism. But you make assumptions that god does exist by default and that anybody that questions gods existence one is getting closer to the truth of god, that god does exist. If we question gods existence, then by default we should assume the same for the billions of dollars worth of gold buried in your backyard, it's really there, you just have to believe in it hard enough, then every shovel load you dig out will get you that reward, eternal riches.

Maybe we have free will, because there is no grand puppet master up there controling anything.

And that's it. Be good to each other. Be kind. Say hello to that guy you always see on the way to work looking like he'd much rather be on the way to a poolside bar on a beach. The homeless guy you cross the street to avoid? Buy him a sandwich. It's a small bit of money to you, a grand gesture for him. Simple kindness to your fellow man is all that's needed.
And how do we know that? Well, right after telling us exactly how to get on the VIP list for the party upstairs,

Same thing as above, but different, but a doubter who does good deeds is not in it for the big reward, his ticket to heaven, but you would say they are questioning the existence of god, but by default he exists and therefore by using your 'god given brain' you assumed, 'no evidence, no god' is just an example of gods free will.
Conclusion, non-believers should believe because god gave us the capacity to doubt, therefore god is real.

Is that what you are saying here?



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 09:00 PM
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a reply to: Toadmund

Man! Your stars? How the hell did you manage that?

As to your post: Free will is an illusion. Does anyone know of any one person who is not caught up in all kinds of responsibility relations being obliged to do this and that then and when? I honestly only know one such guy, and he is constantly wasted on drugs and alcohol, but then again, it's how he wants it. He exercises his free will. You have to give everyone the V and be a complete arse in order to exercise free will fully. And it won't make you popular. Free will you say? To beg on the street and eat out of trashcans?



posted on May, 26 2014 @ 09:58 PM
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Well I can see ( or at least it would appear ) you are not a Christian and thats perfectly fine as you have free will to believe whatever you want. I am curious though as to what it is you DO believe in. If not the Christian god Yahweh, do you at least recognize you are a created being or do you accept the " theory" ( yes unfortunately thats all it currently is and will ever be) of evolution as a substitute for some type of creation event? Is that a Sumerian/Babylonian avator you have there? I am not here to create a conflict with you but I sense anger in your responses to what is recorded in the bible " Satan owns the world and wants to give it to Jesus, who like a complete arse refuses? " Why was Jesus an " arse" to refuse such an offer? If the creation explanation is the Ancient Aliens/ Annunaki/Watchers theory, it still leaves the question " Who created them? " There is a creator and i'm 100% sure they weren't aliens a reply to: Utnapisjtim



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 12:02 AM
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originally posted by: OptimusSubprime

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

And whose context is that?

Better yet, did any conclusion based on ANY context be pointed out?

The truest scoffers of all, the ones who actually try INCREDIBLY HARD to make sense out of something that really offers no answers, and never will, to anything in this world or beyond.



The vast majority of the people who make threads like this fail miserably in their "interpretation" of scripture. When reading the Bible, CONTEXT must be considered above all else. Context exists on many levels and in this order, from least to most... word, verse, passage, chapter, book, entire Bible, historical/cultural context, and most importantly, who the author is... who the intended audience is, and the message the author is wanting to convey. You also have to consider the writing style of the individual author. Mark and John both wrote gospels, however their writing styles are completely different, and they even use Greek words differently, however at the end of the day they both get across the same message when their gospels are taken in context. John wrote 5 books in the NT... The Gospel of John, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John, and Revelation. If you were to actually do a study on his writing style, you will notice that his 5 books are all very similar, and John uses the word "world" in a few different ways consistently throughout all 5 books that he wrote. Just like all of Paul's epistles are very similar. Just like Luke and Acts are similar because they have the same author. It's very easy to sit back and speak ill of the Bible, but the vast majority of people who do have no idea what they are talking about, because they fail to try and understand it themselves, but instead repeat the same old tired talking points that skeptics have regurgitated for decades. The wisdom of God is foolishness to those who do not believe, just like the foolishness of God is wiser than the greatest of man's wisdom.


The foolishness of those who believe men writes the word of God, or even think they know what God is, is what we strive to root out.

And we will do this very soon !

Those who believe in these books have literally ZERO chance of finding out a billionth of what has actually gone on in this physical universe, yet they will steadfastly maintain that they know something of its purpose.

I have studied them all, and gone past them all, and I can honestly say that you will likely not make any difference to anything or anyone, because you will not explore YOURSELF.

People on this planet exist from many forms, and they can change into those forms at any time, they are preparing for the real battle, the one that you will know nothing of how to fight, because you are totally programmed, all the way past your soul DNA to the highest realms, we know this now.

It can easily be seen by any higher thinker, it is time these begin to standout, and with an all-knowing power, and DISSOLVE these chains that masquerade as freedom and wisdom.

And to those that believe that negativity cannot exist in there "heaven"... I assure you that almost all is ALREADY LOST, and is mirrored here, the conduits of the fallen will never be allowed to open so the Creators of these "Hells" can escape, to yet again drag the entirety of Creation ANOTHER octave lower.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 06:36 AM
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a reply to: wyrmboy12

Just like I am an arse now and simply say "Duh" to your inquisitive investigation now, jesus was an arse quite a few times. Arse is a very versatile word that can be used for many things. May I ask why you registered just to ask me those silly and arbitrary questions? If I answered them it wouldn't change a thing.



posted on May, 27 2014 @ 07:19 AM
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originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
"if you say you believe in Jesus you will receive the world for eternity",

Nope. That's not what it says at all. It says that if you believe in Him you will have everlasting life and not perish. That's SPIRITUAL ... not organic and Earthbound. Sorry, but the premise of this thread is wrong.



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