The God of Jesus, the God of the Old Testament

a reply to: Akragon
No, there is a third option.
The God of Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, but not everything in the Old Testament comes from the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus himself pointed the way towards this solution, when he distinguished between "They shall be one flesh" (which came from God) and "You can get rid of your wives" (which came from human "hardness of heart").
I've already spent an entire series of threads developing this distinction over the Pentateuch law in general.
I suggest it can also be developed over the rest of the Old Testament, but that would go far beyond the scope of this thread and must be left for later occasions.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Well we're getting somewhere at least...

Its good that you admit this... but again, you still have one issue...

As I've said, they did not know God... He states it specifically...

They were lost until his arrival... and I believe you're reaching for connections that just aren't there

a reply to: Akragon
They were lost because they had wandered away, and his task was to lead them back home to the place where they had started.
That's the point of the "good shepherd" image.
He does not mean they never knew God; he means they have forgotten much of what they used to know.

a reply to: DISRAELI

He accepts the laws of the Old Testament God as the laws of his own God

Thus he tells the healed leper to “offer for cleansing what God commanded”- Mark ch1 v43

That's not how I read it.
This emphasizes the nature of the ruler-ship over the temple, that these people were excluded because of medical conditions that were looked on as being the result of sinfulness on the part of the afflicted.

He complains that the Pharisees neglect the commandment of God- Mark ch7 vv9-13

Just to show their hypocrisy.

He discusses which are the most important of the commandments – Mark ch12 vv28-31 Even as he offers fresh understanding of the commandments, he denies any intention of abolishing them outright.

He was requested specifically to give an analysis of that Law.
He brings out things that are fundamental to a law by a just God.

Every time he uses the word “God”, he fails to say that he means a different one

He is also in gentile Galilee speaking in Greek, saying, "Theos", and fails to mention that he isn't talking about Zeus.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I just don't think that it's that easy. The Jews couldn't even decide among themselves who "God" was. There were at least 2 schools of thought on who God was, El Elyon or Yahweh.

Deuteronomy 32, The Song of Moses from the Dead Sea Scrolls"
"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."

Then of course, in the Torah you have the 4 letter name of God and you have the 5 letter name of God.

One thing is for sure, esoteric Jews don't/didn't worship the personality of God as depicted in the OT.

a reply to: jmdewey60
I quoted that comment for the sake of the phrase "which God commanded".
In other words, he cites the command of the Old Testament God as the command of "God" , which serves to identify the two.

If John Smith tells you to do something, and a small boy pipes up and says "My father just told you...", then he's identifying John Smith as his father, yes?

a reply to: DISRAELI

So why does he name their father as Abraham if he didn't believe he was their true father? Why would he call their father the devil then name their father as Abraham?

a reply to: DISRAELI

I quoted that comment for the sake of the phrase "which God commanded".

That means that he is not just quoting Moses, but one of the Ten Commandments, which according to their religion, was spoken directly from God from the smoke and flame on top of the mountain to the Israelites below.

a reply to: windword
Similarly, Americans can't decide whether the man in the White House is called "Barach Obama" or "the President".
Perhaps the answer is that the same individual can be described by two or more different labels.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Well im going to have to disagree with that...

Lets see where they started...

Adam and eve maybe? God walks the earth with man, Yet Jesus said no one has ever seen God... This so called God basically tricks them into eating the fruit of "the knowledge of good and evil"... then boots them out of the garden when they disobey... Not only that but said God reveals that he is clueless as to where Adam and eve are after eating said fruit... doesn't sound like an all powerful creator to me...

but lets try again...

Abraham? The guy that hears voices... and is willing to kill his own child, and would have done so IF it wasn't for an angel stopping him... Great beginning there...

Perhaps we'll try Moses... the man who murdered someone in cold blood, then received "commandments" from "god"... broke them... then got a whole new set, which weren't even the same ... and managed to break these rules as well... not only that but told his followers to go out and murder rape and pillage other people... furthermore he told generations afterwords to do the same...

OR shall we deal with Jacob... the warlord... mass murderer, of course he was only following what he was taught...

NO my friend, they did not forget anything... They never knew God in the first place...

Just as Jesus said...

a reply to: jmdewey60
But he does not say "Your God".
He makes no distinction between the God who gave that command and his own God, and allows them to assume that they are one and the same.

In fact he does not, at any point, say anything to suggest that his own God is NOT the God of the Old Testament.
The identity of the two is taken for granted in everything he says.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
No one has addressed this yet, I've posted it in two threads on this subject in the past 2 days and it has been ignored.

John 8

44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies

He calls the Jews' father the devil.

John 8

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

He then names their father Abraham.



These two quotes are said within minutes of each other by Jesus.



Why would Jesus call their father the devil and then name their father as Abraham if he worshiped the Abrahamic god? The Jews even name their father Abraham after Jesus calls their father the devil, if Jesus wasn't addressing Abraham as being the devil, why didn't he correct them on their mistake?



Jesus only refers to the OT because it was the predominant scripture at his time and in the area he preached. I quote Jesus' words, that does not mean I worship the Christian god. Why does it have to be different for Jesus? You don't teach algebra to students by reading from a calculus book.

Just think red and blue light and seperate worlds of orgin for actions of same energy to them both then joining together in the white light where we live and arguee difference between the right and left brain and the output of the two joined .

originally posted by: [post=17955997]Akragon[/post

The image of the Good Shepherd is about someone being taken back home.
Jesus identified, in his own words, his God with the God of the Old Testament.
If he can see an identity between the two, then that has to be the starting point, and the task is to understand the connection between them

a reply to: DISRAELI

But he does not say "Your God".
He makes no distinction between the God who gave that command and his own God, and allows them to assume that they are one and the same.

Not in this case, he doesn't make a distinction.
But, again, we are dealing with what would be a fundamental law given by a just God.

In fact he does not, at any point, say anything to suggest that his own God is NOT the God of the Old Testament.
The identity of the two is taken for granted in everything he says.

Jesus told the teachers of the law and the high priests, in the temple that they did not know God.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
Jesus told the teachers of the law and the high priests, in the temple that they did not know God

He also told them that they WOULD know God if only they would read the scriptures properly.
"You have the keys of the kingdom, but you do not use them".
The scriptures produced by the same God would have told them about himself.
Their problem is not that they are worshipping the wrong God, but that they're failing to understand the God they've always been worshipping.

a reply to: DISRAELI

the same God that his hearers had always been worshipping.
For most of the last two thousand years, it would not have been necessary to say so.

TBH, right there I stopped.

2,000 years?

Nearly every story in the OT was derived from something older..

And then there's the anomaly of David vs Goliath...Goliath is described as wearing armor that wasn't even devoped for another 500 years.

Just to name an easy one.

And you know what a big part David plays in the whole ...story.

originally posted by: Chamberf=6
Nearly every story in the OT was derived from something older..

I don't understand how this point affects my statement that for the last two thousand years the church has identified the God of the New Testament with the God of the Old Testament

a reply to: DISRAELI

He also told them that they WOULD know God if only they would read the scriptures properly.
"You have the keys of the kingdom, but you do not use them".

How do you know "keys" means secrets in the scripture?
It could mean the same thing as he did when he was telling Peter about the keys.
Like I said in my earlier post, they were too busy excluding people rather than opening it up for more people.

a reply to: DISRAELI

That would work only IF you have "Barach Obama" speaking to all the presidents that ever were, and bestowed on only George Washington the inheritance of the people of the United States of America.

The esoteric Jew doesn't take the stories of the Torah as literal. Kabalistic Jews don't worship a God that has a personality.

Most certainly, Jesus, if he existed, didn't teach of a vengeful God who desired ritualistic blood sacrifices. There isn't a story in the New Testament of Jesus participating in or performing an animal sacrifice. So we know that he didn't follow, at the very least, the Old Testament God's laws regarding animal sacrifice.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Chamberf=6
Nearly every story in the OT was derived from something older..

I don't understand how this point affects my statement that for the last two thousand years the church has identified the God of the New Testament with the God of the Old Testament

Well IMO it call into question the whole "history" of what they thought at the time.

And then what they based everything from that time.