Today's KORAN not the same KORAN - REVALATION

a reply to: championoftruth

It's revelation as well mate. In the the title.

Violence leads to Violence. Desperation leads to Extremism.
The Extremists who use the Koran as a weapon today don't represent what Islam stands for.
The Vatican armies disrespect the holy bible and the commandments in the same way.

So is it pronounced kor-An or kooh-ran? Anyways, what's up with all this Allah- Ack-bar business? In my religion q
We chant Swedish curses in a Romanian accent and eat lutefisk on Tuesdays. " #$%&?+-!!!!!" So sayeth our prophet Yon the incompetent (or us it PROFIT)? Watch out with the question ing of Islamic stuff and Jesus Christ never question Israel or Jewish people or you'll be in BIG doo doo.

a reply to: HUMBLEONE

Lutefisk is terrible. Your religion sucks.

Hey! You can't say my religion sucks! You'll see! We are buying our way through Congress as we speak! Barry is already down with us and we've already bought the Supreeem Kort! We'll make AIPAC look like child's play!

a reply to: championoftruth

I'm sure you'd like to believe that.
But the people around Mohammad were obsessed with recording / preserving everything Mohammad spoke and did. The Koran, being the most important... was also preserved with the same zeal by the same people who were present when the revelations were given to Mohammad.

Mozloms, Kirstians, Hairy Krichners, Bootyists...I hate'em all. They stink! Seriously, man, do you not have spell check?

a reply to: skunkape23
As a devout bootyist I'm offended. Love God,love booty.Amen.

originally posted by: abe froman
a reply to: DarknStormy
Aisha, Mohammed's wife was 8. 8 years old. Obviously you don't know squat about Islam.

Actually she was 7 years old when her parents gave her into Marriage with Mohammad and by religious standards of the day, it was totally legal. But again, where's the evidence that he had Sex with her? Marriage is one thing, Sexual intercourse is another. I only ask because you must of found something in the Koran or the Ahadith, even the Fatwas that I missed which states that Mohammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was 7-8-9 years old and Children in general.

When I said muslim prophets I meant those that were solely muslim prophets, obviously you don't know squat about context. Islam treats women and outsiders like filth and the orthodoxy of islam wants it's oppressed to remain ignorant and uneducated, it really helps in keeping control over people.

I have met many Muslims and they treat people the same as anyone else. As for the Muslim prophets, there are only two prophets who are not mentioned in the Bible but are mentioned in Islam. Who are the ones who are solely Muslim?

You will find it's the Royal families of the Islamic world that are oppressing people, you know, the ones your Government are cosy with all the time. BTW, they are not true Muslims, they are oil tycoons.

Islam does in fact encourage lying about islam to infidels, obviously you don't know squat about quite a wide variety of tropics.

So what if they encourage lying about Islam, Jews are encouraged to lie and rip off anyone who isn't a Jew... With that, Jews believe it's OK to have sex with children who are 3 years and 1 day old. The Talmud repeatedly says that's OK.

There is an exceptionally long thread sort of on this subject here
(for those who are interested)
ATS Thread - Islams Incorruptible Quran is Corrupt

As a devout bootyist I'm offended. Love God,love booty.Amen.

a reply to: abe froman

I'm sure it's not necessary to clarify, but I was being a bit of a wise ass. It seemed funny to me at the time. I do love booty,Gawd and Amun, along with all the rest of creation. I tend to lean towards the Zen/Taoist path. I am an ordained minister in the Church of the Subgenius via the Church of Universal Life. Now if you will pardon me for a moment, I am about perform a short-duration marriage between myself and a cheeseburger...a beer as my mistress. Go do something good. We will all meet in the end.

@darknstormy.......

So what if they encourage lying about Islam, Jews are encouraged to lie and rip off anyone who isn't a Jew....

Muslims don't lie about Islam. Why should we lie, when we have the Koran to explain our views? Its funny how some people invoke ''islamic lying'' in a silly attempt to invalidate anything said by muslims.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Muslims don't lie about Islam. .

Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" And considering he said to make war upon nonmuslims ... that tells us that Muslims are allowed deceit against nonmuslims.

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression..."

Taqiyya (Saying something that isn't true) and Kitman (Lying by Omission) ... and I've personally seen a lot of that via avoidance and deflection and denial, and most recently with a 'prove it' by a certain poster when in fact the person knew darn well what I was saying was true but he deflected knowing I could no longer 'prove it'. I see these lies all the time.

ATS Thread Discussion - Are Muslims Permitted to Lie? YES

According to William Muir's "Life of Mahomet", Volume I, footnote 88 - It is clear that lies can be told in Islam for these four things - to save one's life; to effect a peace or reconciliation; to persuade a woman ; on the occasion of a journey or expedition.

'To persuade a woman' .... seriously misogynistic neanderthal mentality. And since it didn't say 'persuade a woman' about exactly what, we can safely bet that any Muslim man is given a free pass to lie to persuade a woman about anything .. be it sexual or conversational in nature. (how lovely - not!)

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

Understanding Dishonesty and Deceit in Islam

Kithman is a command to deliberately conceal one’s beliefs. It is a particular form of lying primarily practiced by the minority Shia’ Muslims. This doctrine is articulated by Imam Jafar Sadiq, the sixth Imam of Shia’ Islam: One, who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us. ** Hadith Imam Jafar Sadiq Footnote. #1 Usool al Kafi, p.88

So it's okay to lie to save your life .... and the Imam says that when people expose Islam it's like they are trying to kill you ... so it's okay to lie about Islam. Strange logic ... but there it is ....


BACK TO THE OP ... today's Qu'ran is not the same Qu'ran . If any Muslim dares to admit that, then his religion uses guilt and threat of hellfire against him. He doesn't even dare think it, even if it's true.

Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced [to renounce his religion] while his heart is secure in faith. But those who [willingly] open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment"

- Surah 16:106 And I posted it with both English and original translation. So there is no mistake. Massive guilt is being pushed on Muslims not to give an honest look at the religion, its foundations, and it's errors. Organized religions everywhere are guilty of this, it's not just an Islam thing.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
But the people around Mohammad were obsessed with recording / preserving everything Mohammad spoke and did.

The people around Jesus were obsessed with recording/preserving everything Jesus spoke and did. Therefore the gospels are accurate despite your claims that they are not. Today's gospel stories are the same gospel stories from the time of Christ.

However, todays Qu'ran isn't the same Qu'ran .... and the Qu'ran stories aren't the same stories from the bible. Muhammad messed up both the carefully preserved Gospel stories, as well as the Old Testament folklore and myth stories of Noahs Ark and Moses and Abraham when he retold them hundreds and thousands of years after the events.

The Qu'ran is totally unreliable.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

@darknstormy.......

So what if they encourage lying about Islam, Jews are encouraged to lie and rip off anyone who isn't a Jew....

Muslims don't lie about Islam. Why should we lie, when we have the Koran to explain our views? Its funny how some people invoke ''islamic lying'' in a silly attempt to invalidate anything said by muslims.

I'm not saying Muslims lie about Islam, I just think it's a cheap shot with no significance at all and whether Muslims do or don't, it really doesn't matter.

a reply to: FlyersFan

You will find that the story of Jesus in the New Testament wasn't from his time but from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts after his time jumbled up with bits and pieces from the Old Testament. This way it would of been easy to make up some story and convince everyone it's the absolute truth.

originally posted by: DarknStormy

originally posted by: abe froman
a reply to: DarknStormy
Aisha, Mohammed's wife was 8. 8 years old. Obviously you don't know squat about Islam.

Actually she was 7 years old when her parents gave her into Marriage with Mohammad and by religious standards of the day, it was totally legal. But again, where's the evidence that he had Sex with her? Marriage is one thing, Sexual intercourse is another. I only ask because you must of found something in the Koran or the Ahadith, even the Fatwas that I missed which states that Mohammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha when she was 7-8-9 years old and Children in general.

It is good that all the humanity including muslims forget prejudice and take a look at the other side of the coin. Just for the sake of the truth.

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: DarknStormy
You will find that the story of Jesus in the New Testament wasn't from his time but from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts after his time jumbled up with bits and pieces from the Old Testament. This way it would of been easy to make up some story and convince everyone it's the absolute truth.

This is what some muslims say about Christian gospel accounts ... but then they turn around and claim that Muhammads life story and his teachings were meticulously preserved. It's kinda silly. (and no, that's not aimed at you, DarnknStormy).

a reply to: FlyersFan

“Truly, Allah does not guide one who transgresses and lies.” Surah 40:28.

Though lying is not permitted in Islam, there are times when lying can be more beneficial than telling the truth. So it's not so much that Muslims are to lie just for the sake of lying but if it is going to solve an issue quicker than telling the truth then I see nothing wrong with a lie here and there.

The Hadith

One of Mohammed’s daughters (Umm Kalthoum) stated that she never heard him condone or promote lying except under three specific situations:

To reconcile the people of Islam;
In times of war against the infidels;
To a spouse to keep harmony within a family.

So if the above are the only reasons to lie, I don't see anything wrong with it because all of them are beneficial to Muslims and their lifestyles. And here is the verse that this all comes from.

Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah, except by way of prevention that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you to remember Himself for the final goal is to Allah. Surah 3:28

There are many Hadithes which are not correct. Some of them are made by false Jews. Enemies of Islam misused such hadithes to make movies against Muhammad.
Aiesha was not a child.

originally posted by:=17961047]FlyersFan[/post]
There is an exceptionally long thread sort of on this subject here
(for those who are interested)
ATS Thread - Islams Incorruptible Quran is Corrupt

Glad to see we have so many Islamic scholars ....*rolls eyes*

I Am Muslim by choice after years of research I am also upon the salafi methodology.. Just as the Op claimed to be in the link you provided.
However it was clear from his introduction that he was not .

I'll refute him real quick .. the Op of that link claims to be salafi
,
but follows Hanafi madhab?!?!?!?!
and attends Tablighi jamaat mosques .....really ? That right their tells me he's lying..

I am currently working on a thread to refute everything he has copy and pasted , from a known Anti Islamic website ..



www.answering-islam.org...

The author of the website and the information contained in it has been refuted.
By Islamic scholars.. And I aim to refute the op in your link.


Understand Islam is very deep and the majority of Muslims don't digg deep enough to understand it. Their are many many old books & haddiths to be study.


The op sounded very convincing ...he almost had me fooled ..... What about you ?

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