Today's KORAN not the same KORAN - REVALATION

a reply to: FlyersFan

you are discussing Qur'an, not science.

as a prerequisite you should at least have read Qur'an.

how do you know what you read from other sources is true if you didn't go to the original source?

and luckily, there is original source available for everybody.

originally posted by: demus
you are discussing Qur'an, not science.

Science proves the Abrahamic folklores wrong. Adam and Eve ... Impossible. Noahs Ark .... impossible. Exodus ... didn't happen. It's just that simple. The Abrahamic religions are WRONG. And therefore, since God doesn't get things wrong, those stories didnt' come from God. And if they didn't come from God, then those who claimed that God told them the stories, are just retelling telling old lies.

Very simple. The stories, and therefore the religions, are proven wrong.

a reply to: FlyersFan

guy, the topic is not about "Abrahamic religions" put under one umbrella and it is not about "myths" or myths in various books; the topic is about Qur'an.

did you read it?

originally posted by: demus
guy,

I'm a girl.

the topic is about Qur'an.

It's about how the Qu'ran is wrong. And as I've shown with scientific and archeological proof ... it's wrong. Adam and Eve? Didn't exist. Exodus? Didn't happen. The Qu'ran is dead wrong. Therefore, the stories did NOT come from God as Muhammad claimed. God makes no errors.

ETA .. and the reason I said 'abrahamic religions' is because Muhammad stole a lot of his stories from the Christians and Jews. Stories that were wrong. So therefore, I included the information that ALL the abrahamic religions are wrong because that's what Muhammad based his so called 'visions on.

did you read it?

Yes. It was rather comical.

a reply to: FlyersFan

The Qu'ran also proves why Christianity is wrong... It simply says that the people before Islam changed the teachings of the Gospels and therefore the Gospels are corrupt. This is a well known historical fact that the Qu'ran has touched upon.

a reply to: DarknStormy

she actually thinks that "stories" are completely the same in Bible and in Qur'an...

originally posted by: demus
she actually thinks that "stories" are completely the same in Bible and in Qur'an...

Don't lie. I absolutely do NOT think that. In fact, I have said time and time again that Muhammad SCREWED UP and didn't transpose the stories correctly when he plagiarized them.

Bottom line. Adam and Eve have been proven not to have happened. So the Qu'ran (as well as Christianity and Judaism) is wrong. Exodus has been proven not to have happened. So the Qu'ran (as well as Christianity and Judaism) is wrong. Noahs Ark didn't happen. It's a ripoff story from the Summerians. So the Qu'ran (as well as Chirstianity and Judaism) is wrong.

You have failed to prove that any of them happened. You can't .. because they didn't. The abrahamic religions are wrong. Period. And that includes Islam which ripped off it's stories from Christianity and Judaism.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
The Qu'ran also proves why Christianity is wrong... It simply says that the people before Islam changed the teachings of the Gospels and therefore the Gospels are corrupt.

The Qu'ran doesn't prove it. THe Qu'ran claims it. And it's kinda funny that the Islam whines about the gospels being changed, when the Qu'ran itself is just a rip off from the Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and Pagans .. a rip off that didn't even get the stories correct. And no, Muhammad didn't 'correct' errors. The thief lived hundreds and thousands of years after the stories happened. He didn't know anything about what really happened. He screwed up with Adam and Eve. He screwed up with Exodus. He screwed up by claiming there was a Noahs Ark of some kind (he just twisted the ancient summerian story that has been proven not to have happened).

Bottom line - the Qu'ran is wrong. Therefore it did not come from God.

a reply to: FlyersFan

OK, then.. If the Exodus is a Myth, why has the body of Pharoah been found with evidence that his death was the result of drowning? Can you refute this information for me please..

Pharoah of Moses

The scientists were headed by Professor Maurice Bucaille. The scientists were trying to restore the mummy while Professor Maurice Bucaille was mainly concerned with how did this mummy die? The final report of the scientists was released late at night which states that the remaining salt in the mummy is an overt evidence that it was drawn in the sea, and the body was rescued very shortly where it was immediately embalmed to be saved.

An amazing thing was still confusing Professor Maurice Bucaille is that how could this body possibly be safer than any other mummy despite being taken out of the sea up until this time. Professor Maurice Bucaille was writing his final report on what he thought would be a new discovery about saving Pharaoh's body immediately after his death and embalming it.

Note: The picture shown above is the dead body of Ramses II, the Egyptian King in the era of Prophet Moses (pbuh). Its age is approximately 3000 years old and it was found by the Red Sea, at the place called Jabalain, and is now on display in the Royal Mummies Chamber of the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.

And there, someone whispered to him that Muslims claim to know something about the drowning of this mummy. Yet Professor Maurice Bucaille firmly denied such thing saying that it's impossible to discover this without the development of science and without using his high-tech and complicated laboratories and computers.

To his surprise, he was told that Muslims believe in a book called "Holy Quran" and this Holy Quran narrates the story of Pharaoh's drowning and ensures the safety of his body after his death as to be a Sign to mankind.

Funnily enough, the Qu'ran does say that the body of Pharoah would be preserved as a warning to future generations... Only when Pharoah was drowning did he understand that there was only one God and it wasn't him.. This Mummy was found in 1897-98 roughly 1200 years after the Qu'ran.

“We delivered the Children of Israel across the sea. Pharaoh and his troops pursued them, aggressively and sinfully. When drowning became a reality for him, he said, “I believe there is no god except in the One whom the Children of Israel have believed; I am a submitter. Too late! For you have rebelled already, and chose to be a transgressor. Today, we will preserve your body, to set you up as a lesson for future generations. Verily, many among mankind are totally oblivious to our signs.” (Holy Quran, from 10:90 to 10:92)

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: FlyersFan
If the Exodus is a Myth,

It's a myth. There were not 2 million Hebrews .. nor even a few hundred thousand .. who lived in the desert for 40 years after a mass exodus from Egypt. There is no evidence of this. None. Find one shard of pottery let alone pottery for two million people. Find one dead body let alone the bodies of tens of thousands. Find bodies of animals. Find trash heaps. Find human sewage preserved in the desert (it would have been). Find SOMETHING. Yet .. there is nothing.

why has the body of Pharoah been found with evidence that his death was the result of drowning?

Dude .. no one even knows who the Pharoah would have been for sure. And Rameses II did'nt die from drowning. He was a 90 year old man, crippled, and with an infected tooth that probably killed him.

Thutmoses III

Ramses II

Thutmose IV: Steven Collins (Executive Dean of Trinity Southwest University) has stated that he thinks Thutmose IV to be the most likely candidate for pharaoh of the exodus.

Horemheb (1319-1292 BC): Ahmed Osman surmised that he was the Pharaoh of the Oppression.[citation needed]

Ramesses I (c.1292-1290 BC): Surmised by Ahmed Osman to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus.[citation needed]

Ramesses II (c.1279-1213 BC) Also known as Ramesses the Great, he is the most commonly imagined figure in popular culture, but there is no documentary or archaeological evidence that he had to deal with the Plagues of Egypt or anything similar or that he chased Hebrew slaves fleeing Egypt. Ramesses II's late 13th century BC stela in Beth Shan mentions two conquered peoples who came to "make obeisance to him" in his city of Raameses or Pi-Ramesses but mentions neither the building of the city nor, as some have written, the Israelites or Hapiru.[7] Additionally, the historical Pithom was built in the 7th century BC, during the Saite period.[8][9]

Merneptah (c.1213-1203 BC): Isaac Asimov in his "Guide to the Bible" makes a case for him to be the Pharaoh of the Exodus

Thutmose II - Pharoah of Exodus

The many attempts to identify the proud Pharaoh of the Exodus have so far failed to provide convincing proof as to his identity.

Ramses II Died of Old Age - 90 years old

Unlike the biblical pharoah, who was drowned in the Red Sea, Rameses II was buried in a tomb in the Valley of Kings. His body was later moved to a royal cache. Assuming there really was an Exodus from Egypt, which few scholars now accept, Ramses II could not have been that pharaoh, regardless of popular tradition.

Rameses II Death

By the time of his death, aged about 90 years, Ramesses was suffering from severe dental problems and was plagued by arthritis and hardening of the arteries.

Ramesses II was originally buried in the tomb KV7 in the Valley of the Kings but, because of looting, priests later transferred the body to a holding area, re-wrapped it, and placed it inside the tomb of queen Inhapy. Seventy-two hours later it was again moved, to the tomb of the high priest Pinudjem II. All of this is recorded in hieroglyphics on the linen covering the body.[57] His mummy is today in Cairo's Egyptian Museum.

t is believed that Ramesses II was essentially crippled with arthritis and walked with a hunched back for the last decades of his life.[62] A recent study excluded ankylosing spondylitis as a possible cause of the pharaoh's arthritis.[63] A significant hole in the pharaoh's mandible was detected. Researchers observed "an abscess by his teeth (which) was serious enough to have caused death by infection, although this cannot be determined with certainty".

Funnily enough, the Qu'ran does say that the body of Pharoah would be preserved as a warning to future generations.

Funnily enough, it was widely known that the Egyptians preserved the bodies of their pharoahs and other rich folks. There is nothing magical about anyone saying that the body of a pharoah would be 'preserved'. It's funny that you think it's supernatural when in fact it was just old fashioned egyptian heavy mummification that was well known to have happened.

Exodus 14:4 Pharaoh's chariots and his army
he has hurled into the sea.
The best of Pharaoh's officers
are drowned in the Red Sea

That says Pharoahs chariots and his army are destroyed. It doesn't say Pharoah himself (or herself) was drowned with them. If he had been, it would have said so. And it doesn't.

Lighteningstrikeshere .. demus ....

Either prove the science wrong or admit the qu'ran is wrong.
Pick one or the other.

a reply to: FlyersFan

The difference is the majority of Pharoah's didn't die because of drowning. Now let's assume Wikipedia is right about Ramses II and he isn't the Pharoah. Here's the thing, it doesn't matter which Pharoah was the Pharoah of Moses, what does matter is that a Pharoah was found in 1898 and after research he was found to have died by drowning.

This Particular Mummy was found by the Red Sea regardless of who it is. The only person that is making the claim that it was Ramses II is the person who wrote the article. Not once does the article cite Bucaille saying that this particular Mummy was Ramses II. It only suggests that it's possible he was studying the Pharoah who was washed away during Exodus.

a reply to: DarknStormy
Your Muslim article claims it's the body of Rameses II that was found. That's wrong.
There were 170 Pharoahs in Egypt covering 3100 years.
The Pharoahs around that time period are all accounted for. None of them drown.

There is absolutely no information about the alleged 'Egyptian Pharoah' who supposedly was pulled out of the Red Sea after 3,000 years. (hint - bodies can't last that long in the sea water - it would only be mummified in a dry desert atmosphere). The only people chatting about it are Muslim sites with people all patting each other on the back saying 'this proves it!'. Nothing on any archeological or scientific or scholarly publication discussing it. Nothing validating the claim by the man who 'found' the body. There is nothing on that body that identifies it as a pharoah and nothing that identifies it to the time of Moses.

Basically Maurice Bucaille just said what people wanted to hear. It gave him more Saudi money (they gave him big $$ for 'results') and he made a splash for himself in the Muslim world.
Information on Maurice Bucaille - Who Claimed the Mummy was the Pharoah From Exodus

Maurice Bucaille’s concordist theories have faced some criticism. William F. Campbell maintains that Maurice Bucaille does not evaluate the Qur'an with the same standards he uses to judge the Bible. Indeed, Bucaille demands that the Bible comply with 20th-century scientific language, while he finds acceptable that the Quran is not written with such scientific rigor, because the Qur'an, as he writes: “is expressed in a language that suits farmers or nomads of the Arabic peninsula”.[9] Thus, he claims Bucaille is not objective.[10]

According to Sameer Rahim, writing in The Daily Telegraph, Bucaille's "assertions have been ridiculed by scientists and sophisticated theologians".

His claim that it's a pharoah is debunked here
Exposing Maurice Bucaille's Misinformation


Again ... NO EVIDENCE that 2 Million Hebrews lived in the desert for 40 years. No bodies of people. No bodies of animals. No pottery. No garbage heaps. No sewage heaps. NOTHING. Which would be impossible. And nothing in Egypt ... if the Army was wiped out, then how did the Egyptians continue to win war campaigns with a full army? Why wasn't anything recorded about 2 million 'slaves' running away? Why didn't the economy suffer?

It didn't happen.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: demus
you are discussing Qur'an, not science.

Science proves the Abrahamic folklores wrong. Adam and Eve ... Impossible. Noahs Ark .... impossible. Exodus ... didn't happen. It's just that simple. The Abrahamic religions are WRONG. And therefore, since God doesn't get things wrong, those stories didnt' come from God. And if they didn't come from God, then those who claimed that God told them the stories, are just retelling telling old lies.

Very simple. The stories, and therefore the religions, are proven wrong.

Everyone has an opnion.

"Given the genetic variation of people today, [Venema] says scientists can't get that [starting] population size below 10,000 people at any time in our evolutionary history," NPR reported.2 But this claim fails for three reasons. First, it relies on the presumption of "evolutionary history," not scientific data. Second, the idea that an initial group of 10,000 humans evolved from primates is mathematically impossible. Third, a descent from Adam and Eve actually does explain the patterns in modern human genetics.

www.icr.org...

a reply to: FlyersFan

Really your using answering islam .org?

They are well known in the Islamic community to be anti Islam.

They have been proven in fabrication and lies .refuted many times over by scholars


Another famous thread here , on ATS tried to debunk the Quran .. Using copy and pasted information from answeringislam.org
He also faild to post his links and took credit as the original author when it was clear he copy and pasted refuted facts from the website.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: demus
you are discussing Qur'an, not science.

Science proves the Abrahamic folklores wrong. Adam and Eve ... Impossible. Noahs Ark .... impossible. Exodus ... didn't happen. It's just that simple. The Abrahamic religions are WRONG. And therefore, since God doesn't get things wrong, those stories didnt' come from God. And if they didn't come from God, then those who claimed that God told them the stories, are just retelling telling old lies.

Very simple. The stories, and therefore the religions, are proven wrong.

Not really there's two things that you have to take into consideration

1) That the there of evolution is merely a scientific theory that tries to explain the origin of life and focuses on the species which evolve and follows up as the theory claims until the evolution of Homo Sapiens

Now what is noted here is that scientific theories are constantly changing and improving over time in addition to new evidence that is found and the fact that the theory only claims humans and monkeys have a common ancestor. Therefore it is possible that the discourse of how the species evolvement is outlined today may change

Secondly as aforementioned it does not contradict the Quran as long as it is established that the final stage which as they claim was the first human being born and we say is the creation of Adam is not something that can be settled unless you actually witnessed it

They say the first human was evolved into
We say all of the species evolved but the last stage before Adam and Eve was not them coming from a different species but being placed there by Allah

We believe in that which they conclude even though their views are (as scholars in the field of science state) "constantly changing" which they see as the "beauty of science"


you'll find many theories not only useless or based on mere hypotheses but those that are fully and firmly established in regards to archaeology and evolution as to being constantly changing due to the nature of the new evidence that is being found


So to sum up
Unless they can bring a video tape of the first humans being born from a different species this will be a never ending debate

However we go back to the Qur'an and the Sunnah and that is sufficient to us

a reply to: FlyersFan

see, the problem you have is that you have gulped on each and every misrepresentation out there and all you do is feeding on more and more lies and deception.

I feel sorry for you and I hope you can see the truth.

Not because of Islam, Muslims, not because of God, not because of me or somebody else.

Because of you!

we may not agree but only one thing that I am asking from you is that you do your own research; don't just read claims FROM ANY SIDE - see it yourself, double check it.

as for pharaoh, you are right - the mummy would probably not survive undamaged in the water.

THAT IS the reason why this case is "interesting" to say the least.

See, they even mention you in the verse...

“Today we will preserve your body (O Pharaoh), that you may be a Sign to those who come after you! But indeed, many among mankind are neglectful of Our Signs.” (Al Quran 10:92)

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
Everyone has an opnion.

It's not 'opinion'. It's fact. Adam and Eve have been proven not to have happened. Same with Noahs Ark. Same with Exodus. FACT - All three Abrahamic religions are wrong. And Muhammads Qu'ran is wrong because he copied stories from other religions that were wrong.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Can you refute this information for me please..

I did. It's not a pharoah let alone the alleged exodus pharoah.
some guy said it was ... but gave no proof and he has been proven wrong.
And a mummy couldn't survive 3000+ years in ocean water.

demus and lighteningstrikeshere ... all proven wrong.

I pity you people ... posting crap and giving each other stars for crap ... and refusing to see truth because the indoctrination you suffer from is too damn thick. Seriously pathetic. Evolve and educate yourselves ... or continue to wallow in ignorance. Your choice. I have proven you wrong.

/OUT

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
Everyone has an opnion.

It's not 'opinion'. It's fact. Adam and Eve have been proven not to have happened. Same with Noahs Ark. Same with Exodus. FACT - All three Abrahamic religions are wrong. And Muhammads Qu'ran is wrong because he copied stories from other religions that were wrong.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Can you refute this information for me please..

I did. It's not a pharoah let alone the alleged exodus pharoah.
some guy said it was ... but gave no proof and he has been proven wrong.
And a mummy couldn't survive 3000+ years in ocean water.

demus and lighteningstrikeshere ... all proven wrong.

I pity you people ... posting crap and giving each other stars for crap ... and refusing to see truth because the indoctrination you suffer from is too damn thick. Seriously pathetic. Evolve and educate yourselves ... or continue to wallow in ignorance. Your choice. I have proven you wrong.

/OUT

Listen . .

I presented refuting evidence .. Its your choice to accept it or not.
Just as its our choice to believe in Allah and this deen (religion).
At the end of the day I think we both can agree that we were created by a something that can only be of pure love and compassion and that is most merciful.

The true foundation or roots of Islam teaches us how to build a connection with this creator through worship and living .
You can say living by the Quran & sunna is like that of living the life of a monk or priest . some people might not agree with it like your self.
Then let me ask you , if this is how we have found god ...why try and take that away from us ? Islam is beautiful and simple .
The basic teaching is that you believe in the oneness of a creator and build a connection with that creator .. Simple

One thing we are sure of in life.. That's death ... Islam assured us that their is life after death if you acknowledge the one who gave you life and then will bring you death and life again. How are you going to know life after death if you don't know of the one who gave you life ?

Why do you want to take that away from us?
Why do you care ?

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

This is a discussion board and we deal in facts. The irrefutable facts presented show that your assertions that there are no errors in the Quran or with Muhammad are dead wrong. The dangerous thing is that indoctrination has caused people not be be capable of seeing the difference between truth and fantasy .. and they refuse to admit their errors. If people want a Muslim echo chamber, then this isn't the place for them.

If you want to base your belief in god on things that have been proven false, that's your business. But once you post in a public forum and claim that what you believe is based off absolute truth .. then it becomes everyone else's business. That's the point of a discussion forum. Like I said, this isn't an echochamber. We will post irrefutable facts that prove you wrong.

Deny ignorance.
(stop deflecting and admit the qu'ran is wrong)

Final time - /OUT