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Separation of Church and State has gone too far

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posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:18 PM
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a reply to: openminded2011

...and yet, the very Congress that is written to prevent from forming a State Religion of specific Faith has a prayer to the Wisdom and Guidance of God spoken aloud in both Senate and House, every morning of business. They have since the start, with the Office of the Chaplain carrying back for the history.

Men of Faith living values founded within Faith....without naming, let alone requiring that same Faith of any other.

Pretty skillful how the men managed it all, but very well played.




posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:18 PM
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Let's REALLY separate the church and state. No more state sponsored churches, all churches should immediately start paying taxes, even the bible says "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's".
Just for example the Catholic church...how is the Catholic church a non-profit organization when it holds such vast wealth?

Atheism- a non prophet organization lol.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:20 PM
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originally posted by: ScientiaFortisDefendit
a reply to: Sinter Klaas

Just to clarify for you, the US is not a democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. Huge difference.


What we have right now is a plutocracy. THATS a big difference from a constitutional republic.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:22 PM
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originally posted by: openminded2011

originally posted by: ScientiaFortisDefendit
a reply to: Sinter Klaas

Just to clarify for you, the US is not a democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. Huge difference.


What we have right now is a plutocracy. THATS a big difference from a constitutional republic.


I guess I should have said "supposed to have". I don't think we've had one since 1913, if not earlier.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:22 PM
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originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: openminded2011

...and yet, the very Congress that is written to prevent from forming a State Religion of specific Faith has a prayer to the Wisdom and Guidance of God spoken aloud in both Senate and House, every morning of business. They have since the start, with the Office of the Chaplain carrying back for the history.

Men of Faith living values founded within Faith....without naming, let alone requiring that same Faith of any other.

Pretty skillful how the men managed it all, but very well played.


Fine and good, but never meant to go beyond those doors, or have any of its citizens do so under duress.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:26 PM
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a reply to: iosolomon

thre is no real seperation between the two



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:28 PM
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I disagree with your comments on what our founding fathers wanted, and I suggest you research more, perhaps take a history class.

Our founding fathers, their grandparents and great grandparents left Great Britain to avoid having Catholicism pushed on them. When it came time to writing our Bill Of Rights they were very clear about it "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

They were smart and practical men, they knew they had to go further than just allowing the freedom to practice or not practice a religion. They needed also to establish a government that would favor no religion above the other, such as the British Monarch had done. This is where the two part clause came in, and the reason why it was and is so important. Please look to the words and understand them, they do not favor the religious nor do they favor those who are not.

I agree that Atheists are taking things overboard sometimes, and they do seem to be headed in the way of becoming a religion themselves (it is their right), largely for the sake of feeling bitter. There is no separation of church and state, and freedom of religion does not mean freedom to never have to see or hear about it anywhere, ever. But it also means that they can move about freely without the condemnation that having no religion use to bring. Again, our founding fathers left Great Britain to escape religious persecution. After the Salem Witch Trials people were disgusted with themselves and their persecution of "witches" which really means Atheists, and other non Puritans. This was likely something the founders thought about when writing the religion clause.

But the religious affiliated need to understand that the First Amendment protects the Atheists as much as it does them. They can be religious, they can have their religious schools separate from the public schools and they can expect to not be persecuted because they are religious, but it stops there.

The First Amendment was worded perfectly for both sides of the coin. What both sides need to do is to realize this and come together over the fact that our Bill Of Rights, especially the freedom to think for ourselves is under attack by TPTB who just sit back and laugh at the petty arguments they themselves perpetuate. We are living in a society that is falling apart at the seams, everyone is intolerant of everyone else and it really just needs to stop, before we lose everything that this country is supposed to stand for.

Secular does not have to mean separation as in a society divorced from itself; it should represent freedom. The freedom of individual thought and the freedom to choose, the freedom to live among each other through all differences, as equals. This is what is under attack, our freedoms to think for ourselves.



edit on 23-5-2014 by brandiwine14 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:30 PM
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It's separation of CHURCH and state, not GOD and state.

The Roman Catholic CHURCH is a CHURCH and is completely anti-christ. They do not follow any of the scripture fundamentally at all. Many "Christians" themselves are fundamentally flawed as well and hypocritical. It's the CHURCH and RELIGION that are greedy and have failed, not God. If people were to just read the bible front to back, and then evaluate each church claiming to follow the story, you would see DRASTIC differences between what scripture says and what people do.

Man uses church to promote oppression. Jesus did not say to manipulate people via abuse of his words. I still follow Jesus through these tribulations and learning man's failure... and I still have the thought in the back of my head that it could all be BS but I've been through too much to bail on God. It's easy to bail on the churches though, because they are ridiculous. People do strange things in a crowd.

Throwing God into the mix is incorrect. If you read anything "christianity" is based upon, it is almost always the opposite of what "church goers" do. It's old stereotypes, supremacist ideas and ignorance from people that tag a bad name onto Jesus.

And I also have a strong feeling a lot of the "church and state" separation reasons were for the STATE to quit abusing the church, not the other way around. The state would only recognize one religion and press it down on people's heads, infiltrating the power positions on top. With separation of these entities, liberty could be pursued much more naturally.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 04:37 PM
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originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: iosolomon

Wondered how long this thread would take to pop up.
On my phone or I would link the many quotes from founding fathers that were all for the separation of church and state....


Quotes don't matter much to those that read about our history. It's what the Founding Father's DID/DID NOT put into the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Right's that does matter. Nowhere in these document's is the phrase "separation of church and state".

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Simple. I don't want the government telling me I have to adhere to the tenets of a particular religion, but at the same time, I don't want them restricting my free exercise of my chosen religion.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:23 PM
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Simple. I don't want the government telling me I have to adhere to the tenets of a particular religion, but at the same time, I don't want them restricting my free exercise of my chosen religion.


And this statement gets to the heart of the duplicitous nature of Christians in America. On one hand, the espouse religious freedom and don't believe the government should be in the business of religion. Ignoring the fact that the mere mention of (any) god is a violation of that statement, as there are many religions that support no god (Buddhism, Taoism, some Agnostic, etc), many that support multiple gods, and some that have no belief in the divine spirit whatsoever (Atheism).

They gloss over the fact that "god" was only inserted into government buildings, money, sayings in the early 50's during the "Red Scare" and the push to hold on to religious belief as very effective propaganda against the "dirty commies". There was a huge influx of the "reborn" and pride in the faith of this country, and it is the start of the whole "Christian Nation" campaign . . . again, as a response to our Cold War enemies.

On the other hand . . . They see removing these inclusion (again only 60 years old) as an affront to their beliefs and the government inhibiting the exercise of their faith. Never mind the fact that no one is "restricted" from practicing ANY faith in this country, but no faith is better than Christians when it comes to imaginary persecution complexes and portraying the victim. To Christians, anything less than being the dominant voice and plastering their proselytations in every facet of public life is a restriction. To Christians (and Muslims) public life is not secular and history is rife with examples of subjugating (or attempting) populations that don't "bow down". History shows exactly what the Christian (and Muslim) movements goals are . . . Theocracy of Jesus (or Muhammad).

Other religions have had to deal with not being the "special god in charge" of a country for 2000 yrs now . . . so being omitted from official state business is nothing new and they all learned how to survive. Christians in America couldn't stand the fact of the original intent of a secular government and various movements have been trying to change that through subterfuge since the start of the 19th century.

Duplicity and Persecution of all . . . the American Way (the "Christian Nation" America).



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:23 PM
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ron regan is an alien posing as human. Just look at his mug and you will see. He is mad because the pope offered to baptise him. They came and have created their own religion and have many delusional followers now. I do admire him for not having fear of the firery eternal resting place that has been built here for them. seperating church and state was done to keep the gov out of church. The proof is the fact that god is everywhere in gov. have fun burning ron regan and cronies



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:28 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: iosolomon

Christianity is all about greed. I don't know where you've been, but the Catholic church was the richest entity in the world for the longest time. Not to mention it most certainly benefits the rich. Heck the bible teaches you to respect your place and respect authority. And yes our founding fathers were probably secular. Just because god is mentioned doesn't mean they believed in it. Why else would Thomas Jefferson write about separation of church and state?


Christianity is ALL about greed.. sure, nothing more. Go right ahead and see the negatives - It's all you want to see.

And i'm disgusted with greed of religion too though, including Christianity. Yes, other religions exist people. All I ever hear on this forum recently is how bad CHRISTIANITY is when it comes to greed and wealth. Like it's the only religion to be hypocrites.

A little bored of all the negatives people see and not all the great things Christians have done over the years... - Deny ignorance? Sure it's corrupt but find me something that isn't. Everything is poisoned by money.
edit on 23-5-2014 by MrConspiracy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:31 PM
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originally posted by: abe froman
Let's REALLY separate the church and state. No more state sponsored churches, all churches should immediately start paying taxes, even the bible says "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's".

Just for example the Catholic church...how is the Catholic church a non-profit organization when it holds such vast wealth?
.


OK, while we're doing that, let's also put a stop to religious encroachment laws such as federal mandates on provision of contraceptives and abortificants, the laws preventing direct candidate endorsement by churches, and, of course, any future same-sex/domestic partner requirements in the works may not be applied to any separate church because they too are encroachments on religious freedom.

...and oh yeah, if you're eliminating churches tax free status based on revenue, I'd also suggest taking a gander at other "non-profit" groups like the American Cancer Society. Surely a non-profit should be spending more than 27% of their charitable contribution take on their actual stated cause while 73& goes towards overhead, admin costs, and executive salaries... right?

:rolleyes:



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:32 PM
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Nothing funnier than a good ole thread about how "my myths" just are right and everything would be so PERFECT if everyone followed them.

That is true, if everyone followed the god of Abraham there'd be peace in the world. Wait, most of the world does and their is STRIFE.

Funny how the same 'god' is worshipped by the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims but those 3 can't get along at all.

Hmm... wonder why?

Derek



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:36 PM
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I agree with separation of church and state. and i am a christian Deist.


Jefferson did not believe in miracles, nor in the divinity of Jesus.


Jefferson was a christian deist and did not believe in organized religion.
Thomas Jefferson held most clergy and organized religion in low regard not so much for theology, but for abuse of power and attacks on liberty.
The world had been plagued by sectarian conflicts and religious wars since the beginning of religion.

George Washington, James Monroe Thomas Jefferson John Adams, Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin were deist or universalist Unitarian.(Unitarian's of that time differed only for the most part from deist in that they are a organized religion)

the US by law is a deist country.
no organized religion has power over any other religion.

I was involved in a case where a church wanted to close a nudist camp.
We blocked there case with the argument that there case was against religious freedom and came under the deist rule of law.
As soon as the judge heard the deist argument he was forced to throw the case out.
If this church had not brought religion into the case they "might" have had a case.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:42 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: abe froman
Let's REALLY separate the church and state. No more state sponsored churches, all churches should immediately start paying taxes, even the bible says "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's".

Just for example the Catholic church...how is the Catholic church a non-profit organization when it holds such vast wealth?
.


OK, while we're doing that, let's also put a stop to religious encroachment laws such as federal mandates on provision of contraceptives and abortificants, the laws preventing direct candidate endorsement by churches, and, of course, any future same-sex/domestic partner requirements in the works may not be applied to any separate church because they too are encroachments on religious freedom.

...and oh yeah, if you're eliminating churches tax free status based on revenue, I'd also suggest taking a gander at other "non-profit" groups like the American Cancer Society. Surely a non-profit should be spending more than 27% of their charitable contribution take on their actual stated cause while 73& goes towards overhead, admin costs, and executive salaries... right?

:rolleyes:


This is exactly what I was talking about in my first post . . .

How does allowing for same-sex marriages keep you from practicing your religion? A free exercise of your religion (Christianity) has nothing to do with other people . . . it has to do with you. Does same-sex marriage keep you from reading, praying, attending church, celebrating holy days? Does making same-sex marriage legal mean Christians have to (gov mandate against your religion) marry into the same sex?

How about contraceptives? How does a mandate to make birth control and education available keep Christians from practicing their religion? Where is it written that Christians have to use birth control?

None of those "encroach" on your "religious freedom", unless you think everyone in this country should hold your personal religious beliefs and the government should take "special exception" to the beliefs of Christians.

As I said previously, no group is better at playing the victim to get their way than Christians in America.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 05:59 PM
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originally posted by: solomons pathAs I said previously, no group is better at playing the victim to get their way than Christians in America.

Agreed. There are even books about it now -- Todd Starnes (FOX guy) has a book out with made up and/or debunked stories (by others, he's trumpeting them as real) about how, somehow, the 20% of Americans who aren't in power and aren't Christian are oppressing the 80% who are.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 06:18 PM
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originally posted by: solomons path


Simple. I don't want the government telling me I have to adhere to the tenets of a particular religion, but at the same time, I don't want them restricting my free exercise of my chosen religion.


And this statement gets to the heart of the duplicitous nature of Christians in America. On one hand, the espouse religious freedom and don't believe the government should be in the business of religion. Ignoring the fact that the mere mention of (any) god is a violation of that statement, as there are many religions that support no god (Buddhism, Taoism, some Agnostic, etc), many that support multiple gods, and some that have no belief in the divine spirit whatsoever (Atheism).


Soooo, are you implying that the mere mention of any god is against the exclusion clause AND the freedom of expression clause? In the statement from my post that you quoted above, WHERE did I say God was okay to plaster on buildings and money? For what you know, I could be practicing one of the religions that do not have a belief in God or any other deity. If you quote me, give credit, and actually read what you are quoting.
edit on 5 23 2014 by retiredTxn because: Made a booboo.



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 06:27 PM
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a reply to: iosolomon

I can't wait for the "Church" to curl up and die a painful death. Oh my will I ever be the happiest man on this planet when I don't have to share my country with a bunch of mentally deranged psychopaths (christians, catholics and jews).




(because greed is anti-Christ,

No, I am anti-Christ



posted on May, 23 2014 @ 06:47 PM
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originally posted by: Evanzsayz

I can't wait for the "Church" to curl up and die a painful death. Oh my will I ever be the happiest man on this planet when I don't have to share my country with a bunch of mentally deranged psychopaths (christians, catholics and jews).


And Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Satanists, Wiccans... and on and on and on... People often forget the USA is a nation of all religions, faiths and non-faiths, cultures etc.

The USA is really the only nation where many of these faiths can coexist in relative peace.

I suggest if you really don't like sharing your country with faithful people, you leave it for someplace where religious freedom doesn't exist.

I'm sure the grass is greener for you elsewhere.




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