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The location of Eden

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posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 12:50 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Well I have experienced this failure to which you refer, there have been those who would steal the cake from you.

The last person who tried to steal cake from me didn't get too far. I love my cake. I'm more than a little disturbed to hear that you've had worse breakdowns of communication than this one. I wont speculate as to who caused those because i wasn't there.



I do not partake in debate forums on internet boards, it is after all, just an internet forum. I had enough of debating at St. Cross college for teh two years I was there, and those at least were rewarding.

Fair enough. To be completely honest I dont care where you have debated if you dont want to do it with me, but I respect your right not to spend your time in the debate forums if you dont find them rewarding.



If you look to have others in ATSN validate your opinions that a 40 day flood 6,000 years ago could not raise the water level and alter the landscape, or that the rivers could not have been diverted, or that famine did not play a role, or that you did not allude to my claiming that the Nile would have risen from Turkey, or that you understood erroneously that I suggested same was once the Euphrates, and that it took a 90 degree turn, or that your 250m is just too high a depth for flood waters to fill claim has merit, then just ask the members to endorse your stance.


What you have done here is continue to misinterpret my statements in a ridiculous attempt to marginalize my points. You have done so without addressing my primary arguements. More telling than anything is the fact that you have attempted to drag me back into this confused mess of faulty assumptions without addressing the simple questions i asked which were intended to clarify our respective positions and take this discussion in a meaningful direction.
As for needing the approval of other members, I can assure you that I have been a social outcast for long enough that I do not. My username here may reflect that- I chose it for a reason. My point in inviting you to the debate forum was to take discussions like this one into a realm where we must address eachothers arguements in a relevant manner. I was seeking to defeat the above mentioned tactics which you have again resorted to in your desperation to avoid having your beliefs called into question.



I am sure you will find many willing to support you. Does it prove anything? Are they willing to provide their credentials to attest to their knowledge of the subject? Your behaviour has been like that of a child looking for acknowledgement.

We have both demonstrated bad form so far. I grew sick of the insults and made an attempt to bring the discussion back to facts. You are apparently too deeply insulted to accept this, or perhaps you feel that my withdrawl from this little pissing match represents a victory for you which you must now press home. Having been a mutual participant in this insecure nonsense, I have no right to demand that you return to a reasoned discussion with me, however you have no right to posture now as if you have behaved any better. As for the support of those who read the thread- we're all just people here, and a great many of us are wrong about a great many things. I have been far too unpopular for far too long to ever rest on popularity as proof. In that respect I must say you have misjudged me. For my part, I have been harsh because I am an aggressive person, and quick tempered in these exchanges. I doubt that you and I have much difference in our reasons for our mutual participation in the preceeding foolishness.



I dont really care where the Nile today originates or where it may have originated 6,000 years ago. What is so difficult in that for you to understand? The question in that regard is; did it once converge with the Euphrates? and until you can prove to me that two rivers despite flowing in opposite directions (regardless of your downhill directional nonsense), can converge or empty into the same basin, you do not have a plausible argument against my position.

Although you have failed to directly answer the questions which I asked with the intent of creating mutual understanding here, you have finally been explicit about your point.
You are arguing that the Nile and Euphrates converged, but did not share the same source, am I correct in this? Unless you yet again deny what you seem to have argued, then our disagreement is a very simple one based on different understandings of the bible verses in question. The Book of genesis says that a single river flowed out from the garden and became 4 river heads. My interpretation is that there was 1 river with 4 distributaries downstream, which would require for the Nile to share a source with Euphrates (in Turkey) and from this point issued all of the confusion which has existed between us. Faced with the simplicity of it, I am doubly ashamed for not only myself but for you as well that we have failed to carefully read, understand, and respond to eachother in such a way as to have resolved this disagreement in the first exchange of replies.



Since I presented to you the statement of Flavius Josephus, which must have brought about a mild heart attack, as you deliberately ignored same, will the following synopses assist you at all on the information you lack, or will you ignore them as well?

You dont give yourself enough credit. I had the mother of all strokes. Actually I scarcely even blinked, and if memory serves I pointed out that Josephus lived some 3 or 4 thousand years after the fact and that his statements are indicative only of historical jewish beliefs about the rivers, and not relevant to the reality of them.



en.wikipedia.org... The geology of the Mediterranean is quite complex, involving multiple periods of drying and re-flooding from the Atlantic OceanThe Sea was reduced to a couple of lakes with varying salinity and probably even dried up, leaving for quite some time a desolate salt basin.
The first solid evidence for this came in the summer of 1970, Other evidence of drying comes from the remains of many (now submerged) canyons that were cut into the sides of the Mediterranean basin by river action when it was dry. The area underwent repeated flooding and dessication over a 700,000 year span.

Red Herring my friend. We have already agreed that we are working under the assumption that the Genesis account is correct and that we only have 5-6 thousand years of history. Even you have made a point of limiting explanations of geographic change to short term events such a the flood and droughts. If we go with the assumption which you have imposed in previous posts, then you pretty much have to write off your facts on the mediterranean as results of the great flood and other short term phenomenon and we still have no strong evidence that the part of the med you are talking about was dry at the time that your alleged extention of the Nile flowed through it for its rendezvous with the Euphrates. Its just as well for you that we don't have to deal with your poitns about mediterranean history because they weaken the possibility that the flood significantly changed geography in the region recently and this again means that the Nile would have to ascend from the basin to meet the Euphrates instead of just filling the basin. Here's an experiment you can do at home- find a way to flow a steam of water through a cereal bowl without filling the bowl.



Do you think you have a case really, other than De Nile? You have offered nothing but naysaying, as if that effectively counters a position. Now that you have reduced me to toying with you.

As cute as that sounds, and as important as I'm sure it makes you feel, you have yet to answer my arguement regarding the land of Cush which even attacks your citation of Josephus regarding the Nile flowing through the land of Cush. Naysaying? Nay I say; it's more.



I will leave it at that until you actually come forward with more than just a mish-mash of conflicting thoughts and a demonstrable propensity to avoid substance in your rebuttal.

Yet another example of why I have extended the invitation that we should each join the debate forum. Who are you to moderate your own debates and decide what consititutes a substantiated rebuttal? If you believe that you can toy with me I would expect to you jump on the opportunity to shred me in fight club.
You wish to remain here and determine for yourself which points you will allow to stand and which you will ignore. You wish to remain here where you can entangle your points with needless complications in hopes of avoiding a response. You refuse to directly answer questions that would bring about mutual understanding. You take my words at meanings you must know full well they could not possibly have- accusing that I claim water can not rise above 250m, are you daffy?

I have acknowledged my part in the foolishness and largely meaningless exchanges so far. I have extended the opportunity to have a meaningful debate and an opportunity for you to prove your arrogant assertion that you can "toy with me". I have made arguements which you have either failed to answer or have simply dismissed saying that you do not care for them.
You say the ball is in my court, I believe it to be in yours. That being the case I recommend that we give this thread a decent burial. I have to say I think you're probably a bit like me- I hate people like me and I don't suffer them long, so I'm sure we'll speak again. I hope that ripostes of logic will be as prevalent as those of wit when that thread comes.

A parting jab in regards to toying with me- you could put your eye out with that you know.




posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 11:17 PM
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You know vagabond, you're absolutely correct. My humble apologies for:

Citing a Jewish priest and historian of 1900 years ago before the OT as we know it was changed, in support of that same book which was written by his fellow Jews and forefathers. What on earth was I thinking?

And I apologise also for using scientific analysis in support of my theory that the Mediterranean sea did not cover the area between Egypt and Turkey. How silly of me to not realise you were operating solely on the Genesis account which says the universe, heavens, earth, flora, fauna and man were all created in 6 days, but fails to mention that a flood which lasted 40 days and covered the mountain tops is incapable of having left a residual overflow, which means it just was not so.

And I feel even doubly apologetic, because how could I possibly not understand that when you say you believe one of the rivers was the Jordan, without providing any supporting theory, that your saying so is proof enough that it was in fact one of the four.

And Lord alone knows I owe you at least 15 apologies for stating that the land of Cush was Ethiopia, when there is ample evidence by those who have studied the tribal movements of the OT in support. I apologise on behalf of them also, and will forthwith advise them that you say it is not so, just because you say so, and I am sure their tributes to you will be rolling in for having cleared up the centuries old mystery.

1) You get this:

I'm more than a little disturbed to hear that you've had worse breakdowns of communication than this one. I wont speculate as to who caused those because i wasn't there.
From this?

SomewhereinBetween:- Well I have experienced this failure to which you refer, there have been those who would steal the cake from you.
which originated with this?

YOU- Never in my life have I experienced such dire failure to communicate.
Interesting!

2)

My point in inviting you to the debate forum was to take discussions like this one into a realm where we must address eachothers arguements in a relevant manner.
You have the ability right here, on this thread, to debate. Yet you persist with superficial rebuttal to every post I have made which answered your questions. If you cant debate in here, why do you need the structure of a closed and timed thread?

3)

We have both demonstrated bad form so far. I grew sick of the insults and made an attempt to bring the discussion back to facts.
Correction, I am pleased with my form. Revisit the posts and understand that your trying to be condescending with; Rivers dont all flow the same direction... well they kinda do actually. They all flow downhill, Brought us to where we are.

The thread is yours, I have nothing more henceforth to add.



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
You know vagabond, you're absolutely correct. My humble apologies for:

Citing a Jewish priest and historian of 1900 years ago before the OT as we know it was changed, in support of that same book which was written by his fellow Jews and forefathers. What on earth was I thinking?

There is nothing wrong with citing a Flavius Josephus to see what knowledge he claims to have or to see what conclusions he draws. What I see in this case however is that he has made statements which he has not attributed to the OT. This opens a considerable possibility that he was drawing his own conclusions. I restate that Flavius Josephus lived thousands of years after the flood and that his statements are highly questionable unless specifically attributed to a source older than himself (such as an earlier version of the OT).



And I apologise also for using scientific analysis in support of my theory that the Mediterranean sea did not cover the area between Egypt and Turkey. How silly of me to not realise you were operating solely on the Genesis account which says the universe, heavens, earth, flora, fauna and man were all created in 6 days, but fails to mention that a flood which lasted 40 days and covered the mountain tops is incapable of having left a residual overflow, which means it just was not so.

It was you who first proposed that we were operating within the constraints of belief in the Book of Genesis. Your historical evidence for the variations in size and probably drying of the Mediterranean works against you anyhow in that it affirms the existence of the basin. If the nile flows into a basin, how is it supposed to climb back out? shouldn't it have turned west and flowed to the deeper parts of what is now the mediterranean? I know that terrain will certainly change over many thousands of years, however your own claims as to the evaporation and expansion of the sea historically seems to shore up the existence of that basin from which the river could only escape if it first filled that basin and then if the lowest exit from the basin just happened to carry it over the eastern bank and towards the Euphrates. In this case, there should be some evidence of a river having flowed eastward from the mediterranean shore towards Iraq. I do not wish for you to apologize. I wish for you to clarify your view on the existence or absence of a basin in where the med is today which may have obstructed the path you are propsing for the Nile to have taken.



And I feel even doubly apologetic, because how could I possibly not understand that when you say you believe one of the rivers was the Jordan, without providing any supporting theory, that your saying so is proof enough that it was in fact one of the four.

There is little response I can offer to your fallacious statement here. I have offered circumstantial evidence and a theory to support my SUGGESTION that it COULD have been the Jordan. This is precisely why I invited you to the debate forum where your dishonest tactics of twisting words and misrepresenting arguements in part and in whole would be checked.



And Lord alone knows I owe you at least 15 apologies for stating that the land of Cush was Ethiopia, when there is ample evidence by those who have studied the tribal movements of the OT in support.
I apologise on behalf of them also, and will forthwith advise them that you say it is not so, just because you say so, and I am sure their tributes to you will be rolling in for having cleared up the centuries old mystery.

I'm sure you'll agree when I say that my contributions will be better appeciated when I am dead, although we certainly disagree on the reason for that. I'm the first to admit that my reasons for believing as I do are not proof of my theory in and of themselves. If I believed that I had an undeniable improvement to offer over existing theories I would certainly be making every attempt to be heard by experts in the field and have this theory researched further and published. I am simply offering suggestions based on observations, because if you'll forgive me, I just dont think the nile theory holds any water.



1) You get this:

I'm more than a little disturbed to hear that you've had worse breakdowns of communication than this one. I wont speculate as to who caused those because i wasn't there.
From this?

SomewhereinBetween:- Well I have experienced this failure to which you refer, there have been those who would steal the cake from you.
which originated with this?

YOU- Never in my life have I experienced such dire failure to communicate.
Interesting!


Do clarify if you would, because as I have read it, the above exchange says that I call this a serious breakdown of communication, while you seem to have had worse. I have suggested that if the clusterfreak before us is not the worst you have experienced, you may rethink the way you communicate with people. I can only infer that you are again attempting to twist my words and suggest that I am claiming sole responsibility for the breakdown of this dialogue.



2)

My point in inviting you to the debate forum was to take discussions like this one into a realm where we must address eachothers arguements in a relevant manner.
You have the ability right here, on this thread, to debate. Yet you persist with superficial rebuttal to every post I have made which answered your questions. If you cant debate in here, why do you need the structure of a closed and timed thread?

The answers are quite simple. You have make arguements which are contradictory, for example arguing for massive changes of geography while maintaining that you can recount the history of the mediterranean going back tens if not hundreds of thousands of years. You systematically twist my words and misrepresent my points to avoid having to answer. Above all you simply write off and refuse to acknowledge the existence of points I have made, for example my arguement regarding the location of Cush as suggested by relationship to other tribes. While debating here you have relied very heavily on one of two assumptions: either than nobody was reading but we two, or that nobody was reading closely enough to spot your misrepresentations. These assumptions would be made in error in the debate forum, and it would be my hope that there you would feel compelled to deal with my arguements reasonably.



3)

We have both demonstrated bad form so far. I grew sick of the insults and made an attempt to bring the discussion back to facts.
Correction, I am pleased with my form. Revisit the posts and understand that your trying to be condescending with; Rivers dont all flow the same direction... well they kinda do actually. They all flow downhill, Brought us to where we are.

That you are pleased with your form in light of the dishonest tactics I have pointed out says all that need be said.



The thread is yours, I have nothing more henceforth to add.

At long last. We'd have each saved a great deal of time and face if we had come to this point before we engaged in this trade of barbs for lies. I too am irrevokably finished with this thread.



posted on Dec, 13 2004 @ 08:52 PM
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Just a thought all:

Your flaming sword could simply be a methaphor for war. That entire area of the planet has been inhospitable for 1000's of years due to constant strife. Survivable but not enjoyable a place to live.

I mean as long are you are looking for metaphors. Also remember these is translated, so who knows if it was translated correctly..

Osiris



posted on Dec, 13 2004 @ 08:58 PM
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its easy enough to find the original Aramaic /Hebrew that it was written in. Also as its been translated numerous times a comparison across translations will determine if the term is correct or not.

Originally posted by otlg27
Also remember these is translated, so who knows if it was translated correctly..

Osiris



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV
always thought prehaps Eden was not on this earth, or plane.


While I've never studied this subject I prefer to think outside the box.

Maybe you can't find it because you're looking in the wrong places, maybe Mars is/was Eden.



[edit on 15-12-2004 by outsider]



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:58 PM
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THE FORSAKEN EDEN

"A belt of funereal yews, undergrown with a thicket of brush-thorns, hedged in this land of supernal but desolute beauty. Directly in front of the Warder's Rock was a narrow opening bounded by two ancient yews of magnificent proportions; between these trees had sprung up a gigantic vine, whose wide-spread branches, twined and interwoven, made a vast impenetrable screen, closing the gateway of the garden of the Lord."

-Seola



posted on Dec, 26 2004 @ 08:49 PM
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The other 2 rivers did once exist. Modern people keep forgetting that the land changes after thousands of years.

Read the 12 Planet book series by Zecharia Sitchen. He uses current, known, researchable, evidence to place where the other 2 rivers are. Including satillite imagery of long ago dried up riverbeds. And then locate where Eden used to be. The Bible states other landmarks too, not just the 2 rivers that still exist today.

Cush was the decendant of Ham. It's a matter of what is accepted as being in the former land of Cush. Names change. Boarders expand and shrink. Empires come and go. More research will show you that the Egyptian Empire, and the Ethiopian Empire were waaaay bigger in the past than they are now. Egypt once ruled half the meditaranian, and parts of Asia. Same with Ethiopia.

Adam was not born in Eden. The Bible says Adam was born west of Eden, then placed in Eden. Adam was born in modern day Africa. Taken away by God or Yahweh or YWH, and moved "to the east, and placed in Eden." Eve was born in Eden. In where ever its location is at.



posted on Dec, 27 2004 @ 02:20 AM
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Personaly I dont believe in such a place, but I degress, I heard a few years back that the place the tale of Eden is based on is a valley in a high mountain range in Asia and that the valley had a tropical enviroment.



posted on Dec, 27 2004 @ 10:20 AM
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Why should anyone care about the location of Eden? What's so special about it? Is there anything about it right now that's special?

YES, YES, YES!

The Spanish Conquistadores, the British royalty, and the learned scholers of the middle ages, all knew, know, the real reason Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden.

Re-read the story in your own bible. After Adam and Eve eat the fruit (an allegory) of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (why is this so bad anyway? LOL!) they "become like God" knowing good and evil. THEN stop the press! Check this out!

- The Bible says "Let us kick man out of the Garden of Eden before man eats from the Tree of life. Or else there will be nothing man can't do, and man will live forever."

A COUNCIL OF GODS is held. The lead god submits his idea. MAN IS A THREAT TO THE GODS! Gotta stop man from eating from the other tree! Or else man won't need the gods at all "there'll be nothing man can't do", "man will live forever!". We don't die because of sin. We die because Adam was an idiot and forgot to eat the fruit from the other tree!!!.

In later times the British, King Arthur, the Spanish, the Conquistadores, Queen Isabella, King Ferdinand, and armies of other searchers..... have all been searching for Eden to find the 2nd Tree. The Tree of Life. The fountain of youth.

Find Eden, and you find the Tree of Life. Find the Tree of life and you find immortality.



posted on Jan, 1 2005 @ 09:44 PM
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Whoo Hoo, I got everyone thinking now! ehehaha yup yup



posted on Jan, 1 2005 @ 10:20 PM
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I went looking for Eden years ago, and I'm convinced it's located in central africa. That area used to be covered in lush jungle and inhabited by man-apes that dwelled in the trees. A cataclysm occured that drove the monkeys out of the jungle, on foot, across the desert. It was a geological event millions of years ago that turned Africa into a wasteland. Also, another tidbit, central Africa is the area on the planet most frequently struck by lighting, with a lightning bolt touching down something like 1-3 times a minute all day, every day, across that great expanse. It used to be paradise, now it's unhospitable. Certainly makes you wonder.



posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I went looking for Eden years ago, and I'm convinced it's located in central africa. That area used to be covered in lush jungle and inhabited by man-apes that dwelled in the trees. A cataclysm occured that drove the monkeys out of the jungle, on foot, across the desert. It was a geological event millions of years ago that turned Africa into a wasteland. Also, another tidbit, central Africa is the area on the planet most frequently struck by lighting, with a lightning bolt touching down something like 1-3 times a minute all day, every day, across that great expanse. It used to be paradise, now it's unhospitable. Certainly makes you wonder.


This "theory" of yours is destroyed by 1 little tiny fact:
One of the rivers going through Eden is located 5,000 or more miles away. over in a little country called Iran, and another little country called Iraq. 3 other rivers are listed being in Eden. Sorry, but no chance of Eden being in Africa.
Also, Adam was not born in Eden. He was born somewhere else, then brought to Eden to live. He was born somewhere west of Eden. The Bible says God made Adam, then put him in Eden, to the east.
Eve on the other hand, was born in Eden.



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 01:34 AM
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Atlantis/EDEN/Lemuria , I believe, is located in the Indies. And the evidence is pretty strong. Atlantis/Eden is the key to who we are as a species.

www.atlan.org...

[edit on 17-2-2005 by pantha]



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by MAVERlCK2
Atlantis/EDEN/Lemuria , I believe, is located in the Indies. And the evidence is pretty strong. Atlantis/Eden is the key to who we are as a species.

www.atlan.org...

[edit on 17-2-2005 by pantha]


All the info at that site is intresting, but it is just more theories. In this case, that Atlantis is a synonym for Eden. But no where on that site does it say why they feel Atlantis is not a seperate place, but must be the same place as Eden.

This is a whole new topic. That Atlantis IS Eden. I personally think there is some truth to the idea Atlantis once existed (along with Mu, the lost continent in the Pacific Ocean). But Eden being on a continent in the Atlantic Ocean? There is far, far, more stronger evidence that Eden is not the same as Atlantis. Again, the location of Eden is hinted at from the names of the rivers that ran through it. From the fact that Adham was moved East, then placed in Eden. From the fact Cain traveled Westward after leaving his family.



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 03:13 AM
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You are right that they aren't the EXACT same place. But they are extremely closely related by location and by culture. I believe that there is no denying that fact! There are many stories of the two being related to eachother in ancient india texts.



posted on Feb, 22 2005 @ 09:37 AM
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Okay...THAT said, I'd say Hiddekel is now the Tigris. It is possible that the Pison is now the Jordan river and Gihon is the Nile. Hmm...sounds to me like Moses is trying to describe the Persian Gulf.



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 03:40 PM
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Want to know where Eden is?

Eden's garden is a place; Junaynah (gnyn) while Eden itself is 'Adanah.
Junaynah - gnyn, diminutive of gn, cf. Hebrew gn, garden
Eden - 'dn - 'Adanah ('dn)

Pisjon - Shufan (spn)
Havila - Hawalah (hwlh)
Gihon - Wadi Bishah
Nubia - Kuthah (kwt)
Hiddekel - Wadi Tindaha
Assur - Bani Thawr (twr) (also called Al Abu Thawr)
Eufrat - Wadi Kharit
Ur - Waryah (wry)
Betel - Batilah (btl)
Ai - h-'y) - al-Ghayy (gy)
Negeb - (kkr) h-yrdn - al-Naqb (nqb)

All these names are in Saudi Arabia, in the mountain area Asir;
---------
We can start with looking for the mountain Seir ( s'yr). It exist even today in th name Asir ('sr or 'syr) in Saudi Arabia.
Actually in this 200 by 600 km2 area we can find all the biblical place names, even those who does not exist in today's Israel. And the areas in Arabia fit the descriptions according to the old testament.
----------
from the book 'The bible came from Arabia.

More interesting names in this book is;

Egypt - msrym - Misramah (msrm) between Abha and Khamis Mushait
wich means the Isralites never was in Egypt but in this place in the Asir's heights.
pharaoh - pr'h - Far'a (pr') is a tribe in Wadi Bishah. It also was the name of an old Vest Arabic god in Misranah and Masr.
'Jordan at Jericho' - yrdn yrhw - 'the ridge of Warakh', Zahran hightland
'this Jordan' - h-yrdn - 'this hight (or hill)' (h-yrdn hzh)
'the fords of Jordan' - m'brwt h-yrdn (Judges 3:28, 12:5,6) - 'the defiles of the escarpment' There is no reference to Jordan in this text with other word
Cush - kws - Kuthah (kwt) an oasis near Khamis Mushait
Gerar - grr - Qararah (qrr)
Shibah/Beersheba - sb'h/sb' - Shaba'ah (sb'h/sb')
Abimelech - 'by mlk - Bani Malik (mlk)
Philistines - plstym - Falsah (plst)
Sodom - sdm - Wadi Damis (dms) north to two vulcans
Gomorrah - 'mrh - Ghamr (gmr)
Lasha - ls' - al-'Ashshah ('l-'s)
Sidon - sydn - Al Zaydan (zydn)
Gaza - 'zh - Al 'Azzah

Intruiging, isn't it? And most of Arabia is not archeologically searched yet.

More examples;
Gerar
Because of the descriptions of Gerar is different this town cannot be one town throughtout the Bible. Gerar from Genesis 10 is not the same as in Genesis 20, 26 or 2 Chronicles 14.
Genesis 10; grr m/'zh is Al 'Azzah in Ballahmar.
Chronicles 4:39 ; is Godor (gdr), today the village Ghadr (gdr), Jizan.
The other 'Gerar' is al-Qararah.

Beth-zur - byt swr meaning 'house' or 'temple' of swr - Al Zuhayr ('l zhyr)
Mesopotamia - nhrn - Naharin (nhrn)
bny ysr'l - 'Israel's people', or h-smrym (Shomerim) = 'those from Shimran'
h-smrwnym (Shomeronim), those from 'Samaria' (=Shimran)
'tree of life' - hyym - the village Al Hiyah ('l hy) in Wadi Bishah
'tree of knowledge' - d'h - Al Da'yah ('l d'y) west of Wadi Bishah
hdql - this can not be Tigris (h-dql). The name has survived in the village Al Jahdal (ghdl) and the river is today named Wadi Tindahah


Hebrew;
hebrew - 'bry - a man who lived in the woods. A woodsman.
Al al-Ghabaran ('l gbrn) 'God of the woods' is the same as 'lhy h-'brym 'God of the Hebrews'
Ur Kasdim - 'wr ksdym - is not 'Ur of the Chaldaeans', Mesopotamia, but Waryah (wry) in Wadi Adam
Haran - hrn - Khayran (hyrn) in Wadi Adam
Shechem - skm - al-Kashmah (ksm) in Rijal Alma
Bethel - byt'l - Batilah (btl) in Rijal Alma
Mamre -mmr' - Namirah (nmr), Qunfudhah hinterland
Hebron hbrwn - Khirban (hrbn)

Genesis 13: 10-12 must be translated as;
And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw that all the kkr h-yrdn (al-Naqb (nqb) vest of Abha, Rijal Alma')
was irrigated in the direction of sht (l-pny sht) (Shakhit (sht) in Jabal Bani Malik)
it is beside sdm ('Sodom' at Wadi Damis (dms) )
and 'mrh ('Gomorrah' or Ghamr (gmr) at Jabal Harub).
It is like a garden; like the land of msrym (Misramah (msrm) )
in the direction of s'r (al-Sa'ra' (s'r) near Abha).
So Lot chose for himself all the kkr-h-yrdn,
and Lot journeyed from qdm ... (the spring of Ghamad, Raydan)
Lot dwelt in the caves of the kkr (literally 'circle', in this case meaning a circle of mountains around these caves mentioned)
and set up camp as far as sdm.

Genesis 14:18 should be
'and the king in slm came out with food, bread and wine,
and he is priest of El 'Elyon.

and in 14:20
'Praised be El Elyon, wich have given your enemies in your hands!
Then king of slm gave Abram ten portions food'.
slm = Al Salamah (the god in slm = safety, prosperity, peace)
priest in Al 'Alyan.

14:22
"I have sworn, El 'Elyon will become a god" or "... , thus El 'Elyon is a god"

Esra, 2
31, of the other Elam-family 1254 ('ylm 'hr) is actually 2 neightbouring towns; Wadi al-'Alma ('lm) and Wadi Yahar (yhr) at Zahran.
correction; 31, of Wadi al-'Alma and Wadi Yahar 1254
36, h-khnym can not be the plural of the hebraic khn (priest), because that would mean that one of 10 men is a priest.
khnym must be read as the plural of khny, the genitive of khn as a place name, wich would mean 'the people from khn'. khnym= the oasis Qahwan (qhwn, or qhn, the arabic way to write khn) in Wadi Najran.
correction; 36, "People from Qahwan: from Jedaja-family, descendant of Josva, 937"
41, h-msrrym is not the singers but Massarrah (msr or msrr) in the district of Bariq.
42, h-s'rym is not the gateguardians but Sha'ariyah (s'ry) in the Taif district.
43, ntynym is not the templeservants but Tanatin (tntn) in the Jizan district.
55 and 58, 'bdy slmh is not Salomos servants but the name of two neightbouring towns; 'Abdan ('bdn) and Silamah (slmh) in the Jizan district.

Gods names
In the hebrew bible is Al Salamah, Al 'Alyan and Al al-A'lam identified with the Israelic god Yahweh.
'All Powerful God' = El Shaddai (hebrew) is a name that still exist in the arabic town Al Sadi.
'Allseeing God' = El Ro'i (hebrew) = Al Rahwah.
the Yahweh of Sabyat = al-Sabayat, a townname meaning gazelle.
Al Jabbar and Abu al-Id is identified as the name of the Israelic Messiah.
Kanaans God = Al Kun'an ('l kn'n)

Todays Israel was settled in this way;
In 721 BC the Assyrian ruler Sargon II invaded and destroyed the Vest Arabic kingdom 'Israel' and moved the main population as prisoners to Persia.
In 586 BC the Babylonian ruler Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Vest Arabic kingdom 'Juda' and took with him its judic population as prisoners to Babylon.
Thus there was so many Jews in this new area that they founded cities with names after those in their old Vest Arabic homes.
The Jews left back in Arabia started using the expressions 'daughter of Zion' and 'daughter of Jerusalem' (to differensiate them from the the old Zion and Jerusalem)
and they were full of hope for this New Jerusalem and Israel and many from the old arabic lands moved to the new. They also made songs of the new lands praise. Today the americans belive the poems is a prediction of the discovery of their country and the making of USA. But now we know the poems was about todays Israel, wich was new land at that time. For the Jews anyway.

The Assyrian king Sargon II conquered;
Sa-mi-ri-na (smrn) - al-Sarmayn (srmyn) (not Samaria)
Bit-Hu-um-ri-a (hmry) - Himrayah (hmry) (not 'house of Omri')
Mus-ku - msk - Musqu (msq)
As-du-du - 'sdd - al-Sudud (sdd)
Ia-ma-nu (ymn) in Ia-mu (ym) - this refer to the people in the south (the biblical 'Benjaminites') wich did not live in the sea (ym) but in the territory of Yam (ym) between Wadi Najran and the open desert.



posted on Feb, 25 2005 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
Has anyone ever considered that we are in Iraq, not for oil or liberation, but because religious zealots might feel that Eden is inthat part of the world and is looking for something or feels the need to reclaim it?

I know it seems far fetched, but the thought has crossed my mind on several occasions.


No, it never crossed my mind, honestly..lol. Actually it also never crossed my mind that we are in Iraq for "liberation" but that's another story...



posted on Feb, 26 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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Talking about Eden and Eve and other legends;

The pixies, (haugfolket), or the subterraneans, (de underjordiske), undoubtedly play the biggest role in Norwegian legend. They consist of a large group of supernatural beings (vetter). They have many names such as bergfolk - the mountain people, haugfolk - the hill people, underjordiske - those who live below ground, huldrefolk and tusser. Legend has it that these people are the descendants of the children that Eve hid from God. When He discovered that they had been hidden, God proclaimed that what had once been hidden should remain hidden. Another legend tells that those who live underground were angels whom the Lord had expelled from paradise.

www.bergen-guide.com...


[edit on 26-2-2005 by Ghaele]



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