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Rape and Mens Passive Acceptence

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posted on May, 21 2014 @ 07:52 PM
a reply to: InSolace

Thank you for at least making a attempt at a reasonable reply without pointing fingers at me and assuming I think this that or the other or am clueless to the world in general. I appreciate the respect.

posted on May, 21 2014 @ 08:05 PM
a reply to: onehuman

You just assumed most guys only care if a woman gets raped if it's there daughter!!

How is that different from the idiots who think the girl deserved it or teased him?

It's not both people are making a completely false assumption.

No one sane condones rape! At least not the majority of men!

Your taking specific cases of garbage human beings and classifying the majority of men that way. That's no different from the men who think most women are whores.

You set your self up to be criticized as a sexist.... By being one.

posted on May, 21 2014 @ 09:00 PM
I have been a man my whole life. I have hung out with other men a great deal of that time. NEVER have I heard anyone seriously consider anything you allude to.

Most men feel it is a crime and wrong at the genetic level just like most women do. However, rape is just one crime amongst a sea of other crimes committed by people every day. If people has super powers and could stop evil in its tracks, they would do it.

Truth is, they can't. What's worse? Many in society see's this as vigilantism, especially those in positions of authority. That, of course is an entirely different subject.

posted on May, 21 2014 @ 09:09 PM

originally posted by: rickymouse
Just castrate rapists and sooner or later the raping will stop.

I think it is reasonable and fair. You use your tools for weapons and they get taken away...for good!

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 03:27 AM
a reply to: Char-Lee

The problem is,that castration only makes us feel better.It does not stop child molesters or rapists one bit.Even the FBI has said that castration will NOT work on repeat offenders. The only real solution for this is to either isolate them on an island with no hope of returning,or kill them outright.Make it a capital crime and punishable by death.Then you have totally removed that threat from that one person.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 03:30 AM

originally posted by: onehuman
a reply to: InSolace

Thank you for at least making a attempt at a reasonable reply without pointing fingers at me and assuming I think this that or the other or am clueless to the world in general. I appreciate the respect.

You're very welcome. I think it's a charged issue which should be adressed. I would never for the life of me want someone to go through rape. Just like with death people deal with news of rape differently.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 03:51 AM
a reply to: Dimithae

I would be interested to know if anyone has any arguments for dealing with the psychology of rape before there is an outcome. People know very well what to do with rapists but seldom I see arguments for how we could prevent the person in question from ever becoming a rapist. We have scare-tactics but no social structure that nips the conditions for rape in its bud.

For all we know it could be someone close to you who becomes the rapist, unexpectedly in most cases. Rapists are not born, they are likely made. What makes a rapist and how can we prevent that?

I'm not saying we should sympathize with the rapist, definitely not. I'm interested in a more nuanced discussion than merely killing rapists or ripping their balls off.
edit on 22-5-2014 by InSolace because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 06:14 AM
a reply to: InSolace

Okay,this isn't the answer your looking for I'm sure,but rape is with us as part of the human condition.Its unfortunate but true. As long as there are people we will have rape.

I say this due to Jane Goodall's finding that even chimps that commit war on other chimps of neighboring groups,not only attacked and killed those male chimps,but also went on to rape the females that had been with that group.

This is something that goes waaaay back in the human species. It had several purposes,one to quickly subjugate the female population into submission. And two to breed with the other group,thus starting to breed them out as a separate group.

Please do not misunderstand what I'm saying here,I do not under ANY circumstances condone nor agree with this type of behavior.I'm merely pointing out that you can see this type of behavior throughout the animal kingdom.And we truly are animals whether we want to admit it or not.

Therefore I'm saying that no matter what punishment has been used in the past to prevent it,rape will always be with us.The only way to prevent it,is for sons to be raised up to respect they're mothers and sisters,and for both male and female children to understand their right to their own bodies and who is and isn't allowed to touch them. Females need to understand that mind games are never alright to play, teasing is never an option.They should respect the boys they are with enough to be forthright with them,and when the guy crosses over the line,they should say no and mean it!

Boys need to be taught similar,have respect for their bodies and to not get involved with little girls that want to play mind games.Then if a girl says no to them,its done,they don't touch her again.

Even with all that,you will never be able to abolish rape,there will always be someone who thinks its okay.They will have all kinds of excuses as to why.These people need to be put down.If the conviction is upright and the evidence is there,then bye bye.They won't get anymore chances to hurt more people.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 07:45 AM
a reply to: Dimithae

Thank you, Dimithael. Rest assured, I am not offended. I am in fact glad that you "caught the ball" and I appreciate the care with how you replied.

To summarize, what you're saying is we can't get away from rape, but we could socially minimize the chances of raping and being raped through proper upbringing? I can see how that could be, and is working today to prevent barbarism. I'm open to more suggestions for how we could adress this by meeting the taboo and stigma via a healthy discussion.

I am not 100% with you that we can't change our evolutionary trajectory and are unable to abolish rape (I know utopias are pretty distant as they are ideals in a universe governed by, if I may be so nerdy, "constants and variables"). I'm calling it a fallacy to refer to nature or our closest cousins as proof that our past and present is a mold for/of our future. We're better than that, and we can become better than that.

If there is will, there is a way.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 08:56 AM
So, you want to know why, If my sister was raped, I would kill or maim the person who did it, but if a strange lady in my town was raped, I wouldn't do the same to the person?

Because, being my sister or if I had a daughter, her, I would have a much better chance of getting off on the charges.

Now, would I make sure everyone in the tri county area knew and continually harassed the fellow who did it to the stranger? Yes, if he got a light sentence, or nothing.

We have a convicted predator that lived near me. He hasn't stopped the behavior. And I've haven't stopped warning everyone in town, when he moves to a new place.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 10:35 AM
a reply to: InSolace

I agree we need to take emotion out of the discussion and actually deal with the problem rationally because this is not only a problem in the U.S but in the U.K as well and it is a total failure of the law and the justice system IMO.
As you said we need to understand what causes people to become rapists and deal with the underlying social issue because I don't believe people are born evil but are products of our environments.
The failure in the legal system is also the reason why so many women refuse to report the crime because they are often asked to face their accusers in court and retell the story over and over which is highly traumatic to the victim, so we need to look at a more humane approach that treats the victim exactly like that, as victims and not put them on trial.
There is also a problem with evidence as a lot of rapes are hard to prove physically, partly because victims often take too long to come forward but also there may be no evidence of rape only of intercourse. So there is a failure but it's a complicated crime to prove without doubt when there is an absence of injury. Perhaps polygraph's are the only way you could truly prove this type of crime in the absence of injury.

But something needs to be done that's for sure because we are failing women.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 10:59 AM
I am happy to see people finally starting to get what Im trying to ask here and not just resorting to putting me down for my presentation of this post.

I know it is a crummy subject and it is usually only talked about after the fact. I also understand why folks say things like if it was one of my family I would... Im 55, I wasnt born yesterday.

I also get many men dont condone this issue and may feel a little helpless themselves. If you really read my original post closely you will see that I really wasnt lumping everyone into one basket except for arguments sake, and generally speaking for this post.

Im sure with all the members on this site, there may be one or two that arent exactly angels, or they know of a situation in their past that they may have looked the other way.

I also get very well that women do tease. this is not something that really needs to be pointed out to me as I am a woman myself. I get it, but that still doesnt give the green light to cross the line.

To me, to say all guys do when they sit around together is talk about books and video games and sports really isnt being quite honest. Women and or Sex are also a big subject at times as well. Maybe not for gay men, but if men were to be honest, they arent always talking about women in the utmost of respectful ways.

Let me be clear and say I am Not a man hater, nor am I a sexist for saying the above. I am just pointing out true points on this subject.

This is why I am so happy to finally see some of the posters asking how we can actually address this issue before the fact. What can be done to slow it down or change the attitude.

I know women need to make some changes themselves, but I still really think if more men took a firmer stance on it not being acceptable it would probably help more. Changing the laws would help more as well.

I just have a hard time with the thinking that it always has been so it always will be. We are animals. No, we are Not animals. Granted, many act like animals, I'll be the first to admit it, but if we can train animals, and I dont see why we cant train our own if that is what it takes. Yes, a good starting point for that would be in the beginning with the family. I know, easier said than done, but we can put man on the moon, there must be something we can do to unlearn this behavior on all points.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 11:35 AM
a reply to: mclarenmp4

I agree, and I understand that it can be extremely difficult to separate emotions from this subject. In many cases emotional engagement is the correct way of dealing with it. Emotions can run amock though, and this may hinder people from asking the beginning questions which I mentioned in my earlier posts. Especially when the emotional response is so incredibly palpable with rape.

Women have huge problems just as you say. I don't know how the justice system should be fixed to allow for a humane, considerate approach. These victims are the center of an emotional maelstrom from within her and outside her (I'm going with women as they seem to be most numerous with rape) so she needs to feel that she is safe. How you design this depends on an open discussion about rape. That's the hard part, of course, when victims simply want to forget. I understand that fully. It's a shame if society might for once listen and no one speaks up to either begin the discussion or begin the change. The difficulty lies in the definition of the taboo, something is taboo for a reason and in order for it no longer to be a taboo you need to change the conditions of that taboo. The change in conditions might well be a considerate social order.

Here's a slightly abstract explanation of how I look at it:

Some say rape is an outcome of present society; I say it's a blind spot. It's a taboo, and our behaviour towards it is lead by alien ancient social practices where brutality is expressed from both directions in an eye-for-an-eye manner. So how should we do it? We obviously need a foundation to begin with: upbringing and social schooling is a start. Socially engineering society to incrementally support stability, trust and solidarity among people could be the next step.

Meanwhile we as a socity bring up all stigmas and taboo's for discussion in a similar rational manner as we do now. When taboos are no longer taboos we can discuss them, prevent them and allow for permanent structures which are incrementally improved upon as our children, and so on, pick up where we have left off.

I should mention that it's personally difficult to talk about rape and I hope I wont write in circles simply because I'm affected by this strong taboo. Culture is always changing, what I see is the need guide it onto the right path in order to adress these outbursts of brutality.

We find that path by arguing and discussing, and what better place is there to begin at then at ATS.

Edit: Well written, onehuman

edit on 22-5-2014 by InSolace because: edited

edit on 22-5-2014 by InSolace because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 12:13 PM
You clearly stated in the OP that more then half of men condone rape. I don't think anyone condones rape. I think most of your OP isn't about " what's the best way to continue dropping the number of rapes in the country/world". It's a blast piece on how there's some mythical acceptance of rape amongst men that lead to it being quietly accepted. Which of course is ridiculous.

The reason rape isn't followed up on by law enforcement as much as it should has nothing to do with men's passive acceptance. It's because there's no money in rape. They get to keep a portion of the drug profits. So guess what? We have 300 narc officers to every 2 rape detectives... Stupid yes. But you can blame that on capitalism and greed. Not men's passive acceptance.

Obviously you being 55 has nothing to do with you understanding why men say if it was there daughter they would ( fill in the blank). The reason we do that is we made the strangers rape feel like it was a family member. We put our daughters face on the victims body. We are imagining it was our daughter. So we do care that it happened. Not as a get out of jail free card for inaction.

Something else, I wonder if you have even considered. Rape and child molestation are both crimes where you have to prove your innocents. Not innocent till proven guilty. If you are accused of either of those. All of the community will assume there guilt. It would take a complete recanting by the "victim" ( assuming the accused is being falsely accused) to undo the charge and nothing would fix public opinion of you.

Facts are the numbers of rapes in society have only dropped as we have become more civilized. It's a work in progress, but in the past you couldn't leave the homestead without worrying that your women folk could be attacked and rape was just expected by attacking armies. We don't do any of that anymore.

I think it really all boils down to society considering raped or super sexually active women as broken or used and damaged goods. This is the reason women choose not to report it IMHO. A woman being sexually active with multiple partners shouldn't be worse or better then a man who has. But honestly I think women do the same thing. Would you ever date a guy who was raped by another man? Or had had homosexual relationships in the past? Most women I know wouldn't. In fact they don't like it if he was a man who're either.

You can't post a completely absurd OP and expect not to have the flaws in your thinking pointed out. If you wanted to discuss probubal "cures" for rape. You should have said that. Not put forward that it's a passive acceptance by the majority of the men of the world that allows it to continue.
edit on 22-5-2014 by ArtemisE because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 12:19 PM
a reply to: InSolace

Thank you InSolace for your support on this matter and for also being open to try and at least discuss what could or can be done.

I knew I was opening myself up for an attack by posting this. That is why I debated it for so long before posting. I just wasnt sure if I would be up for it, because normally Im a lot more lighthearted.

I figured the victims we are talking about probably werent ready for the attack either and it is clear this problem does need to be address, so I suppose I am getting off much easier than any of the victims. I can ignore assaults on my integrity because I know better and know whats true and not true.

What I cant do is ignore this very sore spot that is a major flaw in our world in good conscience. That is why I brought this to the table, and you are correct, what better place than ATS.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 12:58 PM
a reply to: InSolace

It's very difficult because the way the law works you have to give the accused the right to cross examine the accuser & that is highly traumatic to the victim.
Video evidence is probably the best method but the lawyers cross examining the victim it's their job to make the victim look like a liar, so it would still be highly traumatic even if they didn't have to face the accused.
The only way that I can think that would be humane would be to base the trial on video testimony taken at the time of the initial interview and a polygraph test taken by both the accused and the accuser, any physical evidence can then be added and take the victim out of the process.
If you have life sentences for guilty verdicts and enforce the law better so there is a much higher conviction rate than the 6% I remember reading a few years ago and I can guarantee rapes would drop considerably.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 01:11 PM
a reply to: onehuman

Yeah, the victim's never ready. They need therapy for shock ASAP to begin with. I'm surprised there aren't more psychologists for doing this on-site, like paramedics. Our society is swerving towards a convergence of mental and physical care but we're still stubbornly focused on the physical. "If it doesn't show on the surface, why try to fix it".

ArtemisE, I concur with you that civility is increasing and with it numbers of rapes are decreasing (rapes seem to increase most likely because people report rapes more often). Slowly but surely rape is on the decline. Although, it's as if we as a society have hidden our head in the sand and as order in society has stabilized we suddenly poke our head out and exclaim "oh, well look at that, It wasn't as bad as it looked!". There's an intrinsic sort of pessimism, resistance towards positively engaging the question.

I'm glad that the discussion's picking up.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 01:18 PM
Our entire society is focused on treating symptoms rather than curing diseases. We can see this manifest in everything from medicine, to murder, to rape.

The suggestion is to "kill em all," which isnt really a long-term strategy that takes into account that new humans are being born all the time. Its a problem that will persist.

Some might say it is simply more profitable this way, when you are the one that is in control of the treatments. I would suspect that sexual offenders have a very high chance of repeated offenses, though I am unsure of how it compares with other groups of criminals. I wonder how much money the cycling of them in and out of prison creates for the agencies involved...

Basically, the attitude of treating symptoms arises from our society in general. We see an immediate problem, and we address it. We very, very rarely look further, much less come up with solutions that DIRECTLY address the disease. The vast majority of the population doesnt necessarily have anything to gain from it (quite the opposite), however, the ones who write our cultural/societal story definitely get larger bank accounts with less effort using this strategy. Its a problem, like so many, that runs deeper than any single topic where the behavior is present.

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 01:22 PM
a reply to: ArtemisE
If I hadn't of posted my, as you put it, "Completely Absurd OP," we wouldnt be having this discussion in any form. The good news is that clearer minds read the same post and actually caught the true gist of what I was trying to get at without feeling the need to attack me personally. To them I say thank you. To you I say you are entitled to your opinion of me, but that doesnt mean your are in any way correct about it just because you think so or state it as so.

edit on 5/22/14 by onehuman because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 22 2014 @ 01:34 PM
Oh here we go again... and you can count this as a rant if you like BUT...

MEN do not rape, sick in the head CRIMINALS rape. A true man would never think such a thing and I'm so sick of having the female finger pointed at me just because I'm a Man.

Who knows what goes on in a rapists mind, I don't know any more than any woman would. Ask a criminal psychologist.

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