The state of education

I haven't said it yet but I'm a public school teacher. I must say that at this point I'm really scared by the ignorance of students in the public school system. Granted I teach freshmen but still its frightning what I get and let me qualify that I teach all honors classes.

For example, we had a nice little discussion a few weeks ago because they were quite confused as to there being 50 states in the US. Average answers varied anywhere from 49-52. The English teacher I team with has spent 2 weeks now with one group just trying to teach them how to write a cohesive paragraph. These are the honors students, these are the ones that we are planning on sending ahead to be the best and the brightest.

Let me say that I contribute this decline in education to 5 things that must either be changed very soon through reform or other means.

1. We have to return to the days where the teacher could discipline a student. I know in my school I have almost nothing that I can do. I can send them to the office but they get a slap on the wrist. I have had several students tell me that they don't mind the punishments the office gives such as detention, in school suspension, etc. But it goes deeper then that. Teachers or at least principals at the elementary level need to be able to use corporal punishment again. Children at that age build mental processes upon the consequences of actions. They do not have the mental maturity yet in most cases to do something because its the right thing to do. They do something because they know that if they don't there are severe consequences. It used to be that these consequences came from home, but now we as teachers are expected to raise the kids and teach them to be productive members of society while having both hands tied behind our backs.

2. We have to stop this insanity with standardized tests and abolish the department of education. Education was never meant to be a federal matter. Federal financing is one thing but by taking the federal government's money we've given up the reserved power of educating our children in the way best seen fit by the state. There are two ways that you can teach a child information. You can teach it to them at a basic level and hammer it into their brains so that they memorize terms, facts, and ideas. This gives them a basic use of the information that will show up well on tests. The second way is to teach them the information in a way that they can utilize it later in life. This takes longer though and isn't as effective on standardized tests. Which helps them more in life though? Do my kids not have the ability to write paragraphs and do algebra problems because they havne't been taught the information or because they've been taught it in a manner to recognize it on a test instead of in a manner in which the information becomes functional?

3. We have to stop the insanity of the legal system and the ACLU. I am now convinced that the ACLU has a communist agenda. In order for communism to flourish in a society it becomes neccessary to destroy anything that breeds nationalism such as history, religion, holidays, etc. Look at pretty much everything the ACLU has done in the name of free speech. It amazes me that their version of free speech is their opinion and any other opinion is deserving of a law suit. Not to mention the fact that I as a male teacher have to watch out every day because I have already on one occassion had a female student make completely false accusations against me in order to get me fired because she wanted revenge for being disciplined earlier that week during a test.

4. We need to revamp the system by which we determine special needs students. ADD is massively overdiagnosed and the recent legislation in Congress scares the hell out of me. I am referring to the legislation that would subject all public school children to psychological evaluations and then mandate medicine when deemed necessary. Then documents are drawn up for special classroom procedures that are legally binding and the teacher is liable. Get an average classroom with 8 or so of these and things get really tricky, especially when you know that a mad parent in these situations means a law-suit.

5. Cheating is a rampant problem and the average student sees nothing wrong with it. For that matter when they do realize cheating is wrong their definition of cheating is rather skewed. For instance copying isn't cheating to them. The lack of integrity is startling.

I'm sure there's more but really we need massive reform. There is a base problem here that starts in the home and I think that the schools are just a symptom of the bigger problem, but as it is we have a large number of ignorant students who have no idea or desire of how to function in society.

Kudos on your recent post. I am a public school teacher in New Jersey, and I agree with much of what you are saying, especially the corporal punishmnet.

>> 1. We have to return to the days where the teacher could discipline a student.
>> I agree with much of what you are saying, especially the corporal punishmnet.

Oh my God...
No offenses, but you both seem to have come here from the dark ages.
Why are you trying to blame the kids for your own disability of finding the same language with them?

No one says it's easy to find the same language with a bunch of screaming kids, but if you can't do it, maybe being a teacher is not the right job for you? Maybe you would feel better as a correctional facility officer, for example?

Why do you want to turn kids into walking zombies with tons of useless and in most cases distractive information in their heads, just because you turned yourself into one?

Of course, talking to a kid, asking what are his goals in life, what info he needs to achieve them and thinking with your own head weather he needs the subject you are hammering into him or not is much harder then saying "this is right, that is wrong" and using "corporal punishmnet", as you call it.

Would you use it for misspelling "punishmENT", too?

[edit on 30-11-2004 by bratok]

I participated in the United Way's Literacy Program, and you'd be surprised at how many high school graduates can't read. I found myself teaching persons up to 25 years old who had graduated with high honors, yet their reading level was at or below the "See Spot run" level. Now I live in Louisiana, and it's estimated that 40% of the population is at the lowest level of literacy.

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Hecate100]

Originally posted by bratok
No offenses, but you both seem to have come here from the dark ages.

Dark ages? You mean the age when students had respect for their elders and actually learned useful things in school? Bring it on, I say!

Why do you want to turn kids into walking zombies with tons of useless and in most cases distractive information in their heads, just because you turned yourself into one?

How do you know that jukyu is a zombie? Seems like pointless name calling to me. I was disciplined in school (and at home for that matter) - not beaten, not even rapped on the knuckles, but I still learned respect and - most importantly - the essential fact that all kids need to learn: Actions have consequences.

All in all, one of the most misjudged posts I've ever seen.

And well done to jukyu...I'm going to spend my last "Way Above" on you

>> You mean the age when students had respect for their elders and actually learned useful things in school?

I believe that the true respect is the respect for ones action. It can not be taught.

I do, for example, respect Bill Gates for what he did, yet no one was "teaching" me it.
And I do not respect people who have done nothing in their lives, no matter how hard they try to teach me to respect them.

>> How do you know that jukyu is a zombie?

Because a human has an open mind and can think for his own, like "Why this kid does not want to learn math? Maybe he thinks he does not need it? Then let's have an open-mind discussion with him to see if he is right or not. Maybe he does not like the math teacher? Then what can be done ABOUT THE TEACHER so that the kid would like and respect him? And so on..."

Yet one who says "all kids should learn that-and-that and respect the elders", who maybe do not deserve to be respected " and if kids do not do it they must be disciplined!!!" is a zombie to me and is trying to make zombies out of the kids.

>> Actions have consequences.

Yes, they do. If you throw a brick into the air and do not step aside, it would fall on your head.

But what is jukyu trying to teach kids?
If the kid is trying to think on his own ( action )
He gets corporal punishment ( consequence )

To what it leads in life? The kid would be afraid to think on his own, after graduating he would be looking for someone to keep telling his what to do and how to do.

He would be a great factory worker ( a zombie ) , but he would never open a factory of his own.


[edit on 30-11-2004 by bratok]

Wow so I want them to be zombies huh? No, I'd much rather them learn to think for themselves and become productive adults but its hard to teach anyone anything when you have no ability to sanction those that are doing the wrong thing. In any job there are consequences to negative actions, real things like losing pay, or hours, or getting fired that hurt. In the school environment there are no negative consequences. No I don't want them to be zombies, I'm a high school teacher if that helps. I'm scared that I have 9th graders in honors classes that can't write a paragraph, 11th graders that don't know how to behave in a classroom let alone a job, and we're getting ready to send them out into the real world to sink or swim. I'm suggesting that there's a base problem starting at home and that combined with the problems present in the school system have created quite a problem that will have wide ranging societal implications.

Oh, and by the way if I wanted them to be zombies I'd be a big proponent of ritalen and the other drugs that do turn them into zombies. Instead I posted that as one of the main problems. I don't want zombies, I just want students that have a basic knowledge, the work ethic to do a good job, and enough respect to follow a resasonable request. So please try putting up good information if you want to respond to my post, not just react to it and in the process slander me. Thanks.

>> to think for themselves and become productive adults

But if you want them to think for themselves, why do you want to punish them for doing it?

>> when you have no ability to sanction those that are doing the wrong thing.

No offenses again, but saying "this thing is worng and that is right" is also from a zombie.
No one truly knows what is right and what is wrong even for him himself, not talking about the others.
How do you know that what the kid is doing is "wrong"? Only because someone had already told you that "it is wrong!"

>> that don't know how to behave in a classroom let alone a job,
>> and we're getting ready to send them out into the real world to sink or swim.

Once again, what makes one swim in the real world? What did make Bill Gates, Henry Ford and lots of others not only swim but fly?

Correct, THINKING ON THEIR OWN!

Yet you are trying to do everything so that a kid won't be able to do that.

>> I just want students that have a basic knowledge, the work ethic to do a good job, and enough respect to follow a resasonable request.

For example, when I was in school there was a kid who won't listen to his teachers and would try to do everything his own way, no matter how hard they tried to "disciplin" him. He could simply not go to a lesson, because he thought he did not need it.

Now he is running a very successful FOREX company, he pops in for a few hours a day in jeans and a tshirt to tell everyone what to do and runs away. So no "dressing code", no "work ethic", yet he makes millions.

But those who learned to listen, are sitting in his company from 9 to 5 in hot business suits, waiting for him to tell them what to do.

So no "dressing code", no "work ethic", yet he makes millions.

There are exceptions to every rule. For every person like this one there are many, many more who didn't want to learn and are now on welfare.

No one truly knows what is right and what is wrong even for him himself, not talking about the others.

Baloney. Of course there's such a thing as right and wrong. "Wrong" in this case would be anything that dispupts others' ability to learn. Teachers like jukyu aren't really trying to force kids to change the way they think, though, all they really need is the kind of environment where the kids who want to learn can do so. Any individual child can take away whatever they want from school, even nothing, but they don't have the right to disrupt others. Hence the need for basic discipline.

And there's nothing wrong with discipline...I can't understand why it has such a bad rap in some quarters. Everyone needs it...if everyone always did whatever the hell they felt like doing, the result would be chaos.

But if you want them to think for themselves, why do you want to punish them for doing it?

This NOT about punishing anyone for thinking for themselves. It's about handing put punishment to correct disruptive behavior. I suppose a murderer shouldn't be punished, either, because after all he was expressing his freedom of thought.

These two concepts, freedom and discipline, are not mutually exclusive.

>> "Wrong" in this case would be anything that dispupts others' ability to learn.

He - the teacher - is able to give him a suspension. So that he won't disturb others. So still no need to corporal punishment

>> Hence the need for basic discipline.
>> It's about handing put punishment to correct disruptive behavior.

I believe that whenever a kid or a grownup is doing something that is interesting and usefull to him, he is "disciplined".
Yet when he is forced to do something not interesting and useless, of course he would be looking around and be not "disciplined".

Therefor, if a teacher wants his kids to learn something
1. they both should agree that it is usefull for the kid
2. and make the process of learning interesting

Tieing a kid up, one again, would only turn him into a zombie.

>> I suppose a murderer shouldn't be punished...

I also think that murder should NOT be punished. Don't missunderstand me, the murderer has to be isolated from the society ( put in jail, in this case ) , so that he won't commit other murders, untill he can be safely returned back into the society if he wants to.

Same as if a kid is disturbing others, the teacher can suspend him from the school, untill he can return and learn as everybody, if that is what he want.

If he sees other ways in life that do not involve school education, by all means he can walk this ways.

Jukyu and other members - question

what information and capabilities are needed for a person to "succeed in life" - to open his own company, do things he always dearmed to do, receive very good money for it and to be HAPPY.

Ok, if you would know an answer to that question, you would have your own companies long ago. Let's refrase it.

What ( as you think ) information and capabilities had helped successful people become successful in life?

Was it the knowlege of the fact that green plants contain chlorofile?

Was it the knowlege of the fact that 6 * 6 = 36 ?

Was it their ability to look at the word from a new angle and see things no one had noticed before?

Was it their ability to think creatively and not being afraid to be punished for it?

Was it their ability of being 100% sure about what they are doing ?

Beats me ...

[edit on 30-11-2004 by bratok]

If he sees other ways in life that do not involve school education, by all means he can walk this ways.

Perhaps we've (finally!) reached a point of agreement: perhaps no one should be forced to go to school. I'm not sure about that, but it might be OK - provided the child has at least had a chance to experience education and can make an informed decision. (We're obviously not talking about 7-year-olds here...)

Along with that, though, there should be more emphasis on a wide range of vocational training, to support those who can't (or don't want to) go the academic route. There are too many kids going on to higher education just because it's the "thing to do" (i.e.., make the parents happy), and coming out with some relatively useless liberal arts degree or whatever.

On the other hand, I doubt that doing the minimum to achieve a high school diploma has ever hurt anyone...a kid might not think he'll ever see any benefit from it, but real life has a funny way of changing perceptions. Knowing how to speak proper English (notice I didn't say speak proper English, just know how to), write properly, and do basic math are useful skills for almost everyone.

I personally had my doubts about the usefulness of education when I was in school, but I stuck it out - and had a pretty terrific time in the process - and although I haven't become a rocket scientist, the skills & knowledge have been extremely useful throughout my daily life. Perhaps especially the skill of knowing how to act "right"...there are times to go wild & let your hair down, etc, and there are other times when conformity pays dividends (like during a job interview).

>> perhaps no one should be forced to go to school.

Agreed!

>> We're obviously not talking about 7-year-olds here...

I think it depends on the maturity of one. There can be a 7-years-old one who can say
"I do not what to learn that and that becasue of that and that. Instead I think that and that would be better for me."
And a 20-years-old who would say
"A... I'm not sure... the teacher told me I would need that, but... I donno..."

>> like during a job interview...

Feeling what others want from you and being able to play along also isn't taught in school. Anyway, comeing to an interview with a big smile, personal charisma and lots of fresh ideas would be better then just sitting their, staring at the floor and saying "I have learned to do whatever you would tell me".

>> but real life has a funny way of changing perceptions.

I don't think that there is anybody who know was the REAL life is.
As someone said, life is just an illusion that we make with our senses and believes.

For example, if someone thinks that life is hard and he has to fight for himself, he would always find a way to prove himself right.

Or if someone thinks that life is fun and he can be rich and happy just by doing what he loves to do, he would also find a way to prove himself right.

Originally posted by bratok
Ok, if you would know an answer to that question, you would have your own companies long ago. Let's refrase it.

How do you know we DON'T have our own companies? (I don't...don't particluarly want a company...but still I'm pretty successful...)

What ( as you think ) information and capabilities had helped successful people become successful in life?

Was it the knowlege of the fact that green plants contain chlorofile?

No. Nor does it matter knowing how to spell chlorophyll But knowing those things hasn't done me any harm, and perhaps my life might have gone in a direction where that would have been useful to know. That's kind of the point: you never know what you're going to need to know until you need to know it.

Was it the knowlege of the fact that 6 * 6 = 36 ?

Not exactly. But I would think that sort of basic math skill would be useful for practically anyone, especially someone starting their own business.

Was it their ability to look at the word from a new angle and see things no one had noticed before?

Definitely yes. But no decent teachers are trying to squash that ability, should be doing everything possible to encourage it, in fact.

Was it their ability to think creatively and not being afraid to be punished for it?

Yes. No one should be punished for creative thinking, unless that "creative thinking" equates to simply being disruptive. Again, murder can be seen as a form of "creative thinking".

Was it their ability of being 100% sure about what they are doing ?

Of course not. Education (including what you learn from your parents as a child) should be about trying new things out in a relatively controlled fashion. As you get older, the "control" portion should become less & less. The only "control" in school for say a 17 year old should be: show up to class on time (most of the time, anyway), be cordial (at least) towards school staff, obey basic rules (like don't show up drunk/drugged, don't bring guns or knives to school, don't throw a chair at your teacher, stuff like that), and don't disrupt others' learning.

Beats me ...

[edit on 30-11-2004 by bratok]

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Azeari of the Radiant Eye]

We're obviously cross-posting here!

Originally posted by bratok
I think it depends on the maturity of one. There can be a 7-years-old one who can say
"I do not what to learn that and that becasue of that and that. Instead I think that and that would be better for me."
And a 20-years-old who would say
"A... I'm not sure... the teacher told me I would need that, but... I donno..."

I really don't think many - if any - 7 year olds are ready to make informed decisions about that sort of thing. They should certainly feel free to voice their opinions on whatever, and the adults in their lives should, as far as possible, make suitable adjustments.

like during a job interview...

Feeling what others want from you and being able to play along also isn't taught in school. Anyway, comeing to an interview with a big smile, personal charisma and lots of fresh ideas would be better then just sitting their, staring at the floor and saying "I have learned to do whatever you would tell me".

Charisma & a big smile are of course very important, but - depending on the job in question - you might also need to not show up sporting a purple mohawk & needing a bath. And you might need to be able to express yourself in English. And, yes, you might very well be going for a job where you would have to do what you're told (within reason). We ALL have to do what we're told, at least to some extent, as much as you might resist the idea.

All I'm saying is: it's useful to know "how to act", doesn't make you a slave to it.

I don't think that there is anybody who know was the REAL life is.
As someone said, life is just an illusion that we make with our senses and believes.

"Real life" (in the sense that I meant it) is that thing that hits you up aside the head when you're a young whippersnapper who thinks you know everything.

Or if someone thinks that life is fun and he can be rich and happy just by doing what he loves to do, he would also find a way to prove himself right.

Let's face it: not everyone can be rich & happy just doing what they love to do. That depends on many factors, like what it is you love to do, what circumstances you were born into, what your natural stengths are, whether or not what you love to do pays well, etc. I believe it's possible to be happy just doing what you love to do, but not always rich and happy. And if you're not fortunate enough to love doing something that happens to pay well, etc, then you're going to have to "toe the line", at least to some extent, unless you can be happy being dirt poor. Some people can, of course. (Not me...)

>> How do you know we DON'T have our own companies? (I don't... )

Intuition

>> No. Nor does it matter knowing how to spell chlorophyll But knowing those things hasn't done me any harm...

Then, if knowing a certain facet is not helping, nor harming one, then can this knowledge be considered useless?

>> you never know what you're going to need to know until you need to know it.

What would you think of a person who goes to a shop, buys lots and lots of useless-looking objects and carries them around in his pockets, just because "you never know what you might need".

Wouldn't it be wiser for him go to a shop and buy and object only when he is sure he needs it.

Then why should one stuff useless things in his head?

There always is a bookstore or www.google.com where he can type "what is that green stuff on the plant" and get an answer.

>> But I would think that sort of basic math skill would be useful for practically anyone, especially someone starting their own business.

Yes, by all means. Yet high algebra won't be needed in most cases.

>> Definitely yes. But no decent teachers are trying to squash that ability, should be doing everything possible to encourage it, in fact.

Agree, no decent teachers are trying to squash that ability...

>> Yes. No one should be punished for creative thinking...

Agree. But, as we already found out, disruptive behavior appears when one if forced to learn what he believes he does not need.

>> Of course not...

I'm taking about business. Who would be more successful, the one who says
"I would try to make a company... I hope it would be successful...
or "I will open a successful company!"

>> We ALL have to do what we're told...

Don't agree. I think that one has to do what he wants ( truly! ) to do to be happy. And either find an employer who would pay him for that, i.e. someone who want you to do what you want to do yourself. Or start your own company.

>> "Real life" (in the sense that I meant it) is that thing that hits you up aside the head when you're a young whippersnapper who thinks you know everything.

Nah, this is just and illusion. Someone says "life is hard!" - smack on the head. Then - "You see, I know real life!"

>> Let's face it: not everyone can be rich & happy just doing what they love to do.

No, the same zombie thinking. What is that you truly love doing?

For example,
Bill Gates is programming because he LOVES doing it.
Spielberg is making movies because he also LOVES doing it.
Same Henry Ford was making cars because he LOVED doing it.

And they all became rich because they listened to themselves.
They did not betray themselves by listening and believing their "teachers", who said that all they would achieve in life would a 9 to 5 job.

You could try reading Mark Fisher's "Instant Millionaire" or at least Napoleon Hill.

Good Luck!

[edit on 30-11-2004 by bratok]

I am 14 years old and in eighth grade, and due to the fact that I have been learning in a gifted program since third grade, I have never really noticed how unintelligent most of the country is until last year. In Illinois, the school gives you a packet with your ISAT and ITBS standardized test scores. This year, I was in the 99 percentile in math and 96 in reading. The national average for both is somewhere around 50. I was talking with my friends after this and we agreed that the country must be really stupid if the average American gets F's.

Originally posted by bratok
What would you think of a person who goes to a shop, buys lots and lots of useless-looking objects and carries them around in his pockets, just because "you never know what you might need".

Wouldn't it be wiser for him go to a shop and buy and object only when he is sure he needs it.

Then why should one stuff useless things in his head?

There always is a bookstore or www.google.com where he can type "what is that green stuff on the plant" and get an answer.

All true. (Of course, when I went thru school there was no such thing as Google, but point taken...) On the other hand, if you're a young person who hasn't yet decided what to do with your life, then why not take the opportunity to absorb as much information as possible? You never know what random piece of data is going to spark your imagination. And, as far as I can tell, the human brain is capable to storing a practically unlimited amount of data.

Agree, no decent teachers are trying to squash that ability...

Which makes me wonder why you decided to take issue with the original poster. As far as we know, he/she is a decent teacher.

Agree. But, as we already found out, disruptive behavior appears when one if forced to learn what he believes he does not need.

Who already found out? I agree that disruptive behavior may appear under those circumstances, but it also may appear for many other reasons. And regardless of why it appears, it needs to be dealt with. (No, not by beating! School counselors should be trained to get to the root of such things and find a way forward...)

I'm taking about business. Who would be more successful, the one who says "I would try to make a company... I hope it would be successful...
or "I will open a successful company!"

Another point of agreement

Don't agree. I think that one has to do what he wants ( truly! ) to do to be happy. And either find an employer who would pay him for that, i.e. someone who want you to do what you want to do yourself. Or start your own company.

Sounds like utpoia....and don't get me wrong, I truly hope we get there, but we ain't there yet. OK, what if someone truly enjoyed weaving baskets; they might, if they were good at it, earn enough to feed themselves, but would be very unlikely to get rich. Bill Gates, for example, was lucky enough to really enjoy doing something that - entirely by chance - was getting ready to explode like nothing else the world has ever seen. That's not to say he didn't deserve it, or that it was nothing to do with him, just that if his "thing" had been basket weaving we never would have heard of him.

I don't know, maybe it's my own (hopefully mild!) psychosis: at 45, I still don't know "what I want to do". I'm reasonably happy (and very well paid) in my employment, and very happy in other areas of my life. One thing I am sure of, though: being required to behave in a reasonably civilized fashion in school didn't "stifle" me.

Nah, this is just and illusion. Someone says "life is hard!" - smack on the head. Then - "You see, I know real life!"

I've decided I agree with you. Here's a concept, though: I reckon most humans are presently in no condition to take advantage of such ideas. People will continue to to go down the "daily grind" route...I'm just not sure that "liberal" education is the key to changing that.

You could try reading Mark Fisher's "Instant Millionaire" or at least Napoleon Hill.

I had a look on Amazon, have read similar books (Tony Robbins in particular). All good stuff, but the "trouble" is you still have to make the effort to apply the knowledge. My point of view results from some "stuff" I've been going thru lately...which has led to the conclusion that there is no "magic bullet", and if I want to fix this "stuff" I'm going to have to actually do something...

Anyway, thanks for a great debate...changed my opinion on some things, although I still don't think basic discipline and good teaching are mutually exclusive.

>> All good stuff, but the "trouble" is you still have to make the effort to apply the knowledge.

Yes, of course, to achieve something one has to make an effort ( that, in the best case, he would consider as �fun�, not an �effort� ). But the �knowledge� found in such books is different from �knowledge� you can get in schools.

In school you mostly get facts ( some call it �dead knowledge� ) that, for example, green plants contain chlorophyll or that water is H2O, yet, if you�re not going to become a chemist or a biologist, this info is of no use to you, it does not benefit you in any way other then you can say, �see, I know what water is made of and why plants are green!�

But the info you get in such books is more practical � like if you do that and that you would achieve a state of internal creativity and happiness. Being able to get yourself into such state, I believe, is more valuable then knowing that acid is H2SO4.

>> People will continue to go down the "daily grind" route...I'm just not sure that "liberal" education is the key to changing that.

It depends on the school, of course. In my school there were only 2-3 teachers that really wanted to help kids, by teach them something they might need. The other 15 teachers were just angry at themselves, hated their job and the kids and only were trying to teach them that �life is hard�.

>> Sounds like utpoia....and don't get me wrong, I truly hope we get there, but we ain't there yet.

Yet all people I know who are happy are doing that they love to do. But all that are unhappy truly believe that life is hard and that they can�t do what they want.

>> just that if his "thing" had been basket weaving we never would have heard of him.

I believe then we all would know of the biggest basket weaving company and would use his baskets.

>> Which makes me wonder why you decided to take issue with the original poster. As far as we know, he/she is a decent teacher.

I just don�t think that a decent teacher would even get an idea of using �corporal punishment�.
When I was in collage we had one teacher. Whenever he came into the class, everybody turned to him and listened.

Because he had not only personal charisma, but was also telling things that are interesting.

>> And, as far as I can tell, the human brain is capable to storing a practically unlimited amount of data.

No, I believe that our brain is designed the way that it would not store any big amount of useless date. �Useless date� mean date that we do not use all the time. For example, I learned chemistry for 10 years in school and, as long as I have used it in class, I remembered it. But now, after not using it for a few years, I don�t remember anything more then H2O, O2, H2SO4 and HCl of it and that if I suddenly need it, there is a book in the library.

So this basic knowledge of every subject, that stays in the head, I believe can be received within a few month of learning at most.
But then what were we doing in school for 10+ years???

Correct, we were training to

1. Listen to what the teachers tell us and not to question it.

Therefore, after graduating, we would go looking for someone who would keep telling us what to do.

2. Use logical thinking. 2 + 2 = 4

So dumbing down creative and intuitive thinking.

For example, most grownups can not simply close their eyes and relax, they would hear a never-ending internal dialogue that kids ( under about 7 years ) do not have.

Intuitive thinking? What is it? Let me give you a little, little hint � try remembering how you felt time when you were 2-3 years old ( it�s not very easy, of course ). I�m sure that it was somehow different from the way you feel it now.

Originally posted by jukyu

...the recent legislation in Congress scares the hell out of me. I am referring to the legislation that would subject all public school children to psychological evaluations and then mandate medicine when deemed necessary...

Well now, that is scary. I don't have time to read this entire thread just now; I have to leave soon for work. Do you have more information on this legislation? I think I would kill someone before I allowed them to give my children drugs without my permission.