Faith And Belief Vs. Absolute Non-Absolute.

a reply to: WarminIndy

What holds us to a higher moral standard? Other animals? The animals don't even do that to each other. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

We don't have higher moral standards than animals. You don't see animals self destructing or inventing weapons of mass destruction. We do see the cruelty of nature, from which we are not immune.

If there was an empirical god that was "good" then all of nature, not just human beings, would reflect that god's morality and nothing "bad" would happen in nature.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

What holds us to a higher moral standard? Other animals? The animals don't even do that to each other. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

We don't have higher moral standards than animals. You don't see animals self destructing or inventing weapons of mass destruction. We do see the cruelty of nature, from which we are not immune.

If there was an empirical god that was "good" then all of nature, not just human beings, would reflect that god's morality and nothing "bad" would happen in nature.

Is moral order reflected in the face of nature, and if moral order is reflected, does it come from nature itself or from us?

Is this a pushme-pullyou for Dr. Doolittle?

Water reflects, the moon reflects, but it can only reflect so as long as there is something that casts the light to begin with. As nature then reflects moral order, the moral order must then come from outside of nature.

Is moral order intrinsic to nature? As it can't be, then moral order cannot be what is the reflector. So then, what is the moral order in the natural universe, if it isn't intrinsic to nature?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Is moral order reflected in the face of nature, and if moral order is reflected, does it come from nature itself or from us?

Morality and "moral order" are concepts that only exist in the minds of men. There is no morality or "moral order" in nature.

a reply to: WarminIndy

It is never about believing or not believing in the existence of god. It is a lie and a fallacy to say "I believe in God" or "I don't believe in God". These are assertions of faith, which is a commitment to an idea only, and not an actual god. It is only true when one says "I believe what the Bible says" or "I don't believe what the Bible says". No god is ever required for that commitment or repudiation.

Belief and faith are two entirely different concepts. We believe the train will come at the right time. We have faith that god exists. Faith is a commitment to an idea without any reason to believe it. Both belief and non-belief in god are commitments to ideas, and therefor, articles of faith.

originally posted by: Aphorism
a reply to: WarminIndy

It is never about believing or not believing in the existence of god. It is a lie and a fallacy to say "I believe in God" or "I don't believe in God". These are assertions of faith, which is a commitment to an idea only, and not an actual god. It is only true when one says "I believe what the Bible says" or "I don't believe what the Bible says". No god is ever required for that commitment or repudiation.

Belief and faith are two entirely different concepts. We believe the train will come at the right time. We have faith that god exists. Faith is a commitment to an idea without any reason to believe it. Both belief and non-belief in god are commitments to ideas, and therefor, articles of faith.

Actually, I believe.

I have faith that I will take the next breath, I don't believe that I will. If you believe you will, why?

I believe this existence is transitory and fleeting, that I am here moment to moment, but that it will be over one day, I don't know when and I don't know how, but it will.

Neither you nor I can predict next week, but why do we do those things preparing for it, when there is nothing reasonable or logical to believe we will be here then?

Is that faith, what do you base your faith on for why you prepare for a day to come that you don't even know will get here? Is it faith for me to accept that my life is fleeting? I believe my life is, I know my life is, that's why I don't stress out over what I have no control over.

I have faith in God because I know that God is.

And if we could just have faith, then what's the point spread for the next Super Bowl?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Is moral order reflected in the face of nature, and if moral order is reflected, does it come from nature itself or from us?

Morality and "moral order" are concepts that only exist in the minds of men. There is no morality or "moral order" in nature.

And so there's no judgment that can be placed on actions arising from the animalistic nature of men.
No moral order means no moral judgement. The fact we do indeed place moral judgment above natural law, then we have spiritual order and judgement.

a reply to: WarminIndy

And so there's no judgment that can be placed on actions arising from the animalistic nature of men.

We can judge all we want, after all, judging another's "morality" is a human construct.

No moral order means no moral judgement. The fact we do indeed place moral judgment above natural law, then we have spiritual order and judgement.

Because humans discriminate doesn't automatically mean their discrimination is based on something "spiritual".

a reply to: Pinke

I am afraid much of what you said are subjective statements and have no evidence behind them. You say there is an absence of evidence within statistics, genetics and philosophical consistency. I would say that isn't true at all.

All of Science pretty much accepts that Space, Time, and Matter all came into existence from an infinite point of density which is nothing. The second law of thermodynamics states that the universe is running down. That eventually our Sun will burn out. Things go to disorder as time continues. The universe is expanding. Hubble discovered that all of the galaxies in the universe had a red shift in the light meaning they were moving away from us. Logically if you reverse time then it will show you that the universe began expanding from a point of infinite density which is nothing. Third, If the universe came into existence from a point of infinite density in an explosion of energy, then the heat should still be out there. This is called radiation afterglow and it was discovered in 1978. Lastly, let us use Einsteins theory of relativity. It states that Space, time and matter are all correlative and you cannot have one without the other. If these all had a beginning together then the cause must have been Spaceless Timeless and Immaterial.

Now we are left with basically two world views once we establish these Scientific Principles. Either Something/Someone Created something from nothing or Something came from nothing by complete and total accident. Which one sound more logical to you.