Is the 9/11 Forum Dying?

Self Inflicted.

The Jewish nonsense I replaced with a work by Rodney Stich 'Blowback, 9/11 and Cover-Up's. As I said these books follow a well worn path and this one didn't disappoint me in that respect. The first part of the work and in some instances, all most half of it, is taken up by a long retelling of all the various skullduggery, deception and good ole gaslight that the Untied States government and it's assets has been up to since around 1955 or so. This, of course, tells me nothing that I don't already know and they attach a 'False Flag' to every single one. The authors might have considered using a High School history text as a guide to these 'elaborate deceptions'. For instance, the infamous Gulf of Tonkin incident, if they had consulted this history text they would know that the Paris Peace Accords, that finally ended this misery for everyone involved, stated plainly that the only thing the soon to be Republic of Vietnam and the Americans could agree on is the fact that neither side had the slightest idea just what happened in the Tonkin Bay. The Vietnamese negotiator said they were 'clueless' and McNamara's team didn't have the foggiest idea of what happened. Don't you think it's kind of hard to have a 'false flag' when no one has the slightest idea what happened?

Of course the JFK assassination in which they are clueless that the government admitted a conspiracy some 35 years ago. The best 'false flag' I found was Hurricane Katrina. Before you laugh I must agree to some of it. It seems that the deception had something to do with bigots/racist in the American south in 'Bush Country' had grown weary and tired of the never ending complaining of the entitlement junkies in which generations only employment was waiting for a check from the taxpayers. Also, certain members of the southern Bush supporters were wishing for another storm to 'Finish the Job'. That is very true. They were even radio contest to see who could come up with the name of the storm-BAM-BAM from the Flintstones was mentioned as well as Hurricane Sewer' which is exactly what New Orleans is outside a few nice Hotels in the French area of the town.


Of course none of this has anything to do with 9/11 except Stich saying that is 'shows a pattern of criminality'

By 2006 The movement in Canada had become frustrated and down right angry at the attitude of the local media-The Toronto Star in particular. They simply could care less what the movement did or anything they had to say. They would not even acknowledge they existed-never returned calls, e-mail or anything. Then the steward of the movement, Barry Zwicker -in addressing the City Editor of the Star-that I will not name-said something incredible-

The Editor declared to the movement that questions about the 9/11 official story can't be pursued if the "information that comes to the attention of the paper that cannot be properly substantiated through the sources and documents to meet the standard of a court of law in accusations that dozens, if not hundreds, of people-including a Chief executive-are accused of thousand of counts of mass murder" That is the standard of all media in terms of accusations of murder ie you need "Real Evidence"

To which Barry replied: "That is an impossible standard to Demand" "It would disqualify most stories most days"

That is a profound statement that was unwise.

So, the editor of the paper should print anything-everything-rumor-speculation anything at all to accuse some one of mass murder-with no evidence that could ever convict them-and they admit they never will have any!

This was a huge moment in the 'truther' campaign. Here people began examining just exactly what they were doing and why when their leader admits that this movement can accuse someone of 3000 counts of murder-admit they don't have any evidence-admit that they never will have any evidence-and that is just fine.

It matters none how much you hate Bush and Company but the standards ask by the Editor to investigate this horrible crime deserve to be at the level of "innocent until proven guilty"-That request should be honored-or give it up.

A lot of people did just because that is simply not fair to anyone-Chief Executive or man on the street-to accuse some one in that fashion. Perhaps, it's time for a different cause.

Canada was always the main base, or the Al-Qaeda of the truth movement. The Star is one of the most liberal news origination, in the most liberal of cities Toronto, and the most further left country in the Western Hemisphere.

The accusations against the Star, made by Zwicker and so many others, seem unreal to me however I ,of course, don't live there.

If the Star grants a request for some clarification on this period I will continue this line of investigation. I doubt very much that they will-they might order me hung if they find out who I used to be-however we will see. Personally, I can't see any good for them at all in dredging all this up again.

Massive Group Dumbation

It is amazing that internet groups such as those similar to ATS and others that are out to 'find the truth' are so clueless about history-or about anything for that matter. One of the other groups debating this were 'shocked' that the American government admitted a conspiracy in the JFK assassination in 1977-When did they do that???

Furthermore when told that in 1996 the ARRB confirmed the conspiracy and said it was the government fault and they solely were to blame you hear WHAT!! What does ARRB mean??? I thought Bush did it.

I rest my case.

a reply to: spooky24

The Truth Movement - the legitimate Truth Movement - has only ever pushed for a new and complete investigation. It's never pushed for slander or a public conviction of anyone specifically. Don't conflate that with whatever some jackass has tried to do in service of his own or her own professional career.

Besides, who cares what a Canadian newspaper editor thinks about anything? Canada isn't much more than a third nipple on the N. American continent anyway.

All of these things shrink over time. This one just did it quicker because the internet causes the information to be introduced and debunked at lightspeed.

There are still conversations going on about it but the real adherents got sick of the "shills" (translation - being shown they were wrong, being unable to mount credible arguments that could go mainstream). So they sloped off to places where they would be challenged less.

Something I've seen recently is a move towards what you might call hyper-initiate stage by adherents. Because a large part of Conspiracy Theories' appeal lies in knowing something others don't, the form of their discussion on the internet leads to a race to be the one who has the latest, most 'insightful' knowledge. So nuclear bombs are the latest chic theory. There's no way people could have got there on 12/9/01 - the idea is absurd - but after a dozen years of nonsense people at least want the latest, shiniest nonsense. And pretty much the only people they have to argue with now are other truthers with lamer (their word) theories.

a reply to: JuniorDisco

I think that it is somewhat shortsighted to claim that the people involved with conspiracy theory in general, are involved because it makes them feel good when they believe they know something that no one else does.

I am sure that there are people like those you describe, hidden away in the strange, infrequently dusted corners of ATS, and indeed the internet as a wider construct. However, I do not believe that everyone who has an interest in these matters is that sort of narcissist.

People are as different as two snowflakes, no two being exactly identical, even the twins. This means that in terms of motivation, one conspiracy theorist might have an entirely different attitude or approach than another. Sure, there is probably some whiny punk in a basement somewhere, who DOES get off on knowing secret things. But equally, there are people who are labeled conspiracy theorists, who want the truth because they could USE the truth to improve their way of life, or right a wrong, or because the lies they have been told make it impossible for them to trust their government, and they WANT to be able to do that, and believe that truth is the only way to make a difference in a world constructed on lies.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I don't think Conspiracy Theorists all need to feel like superior initiates to some greater truth. But it is quite widespread among Truthers.

I agree though that there are a wide range of other things drawing people to Conspiracy Theories. On what those are I think we part company - and indeed the term 'Conspiracy Theory' becomes inadequate for the discussions. To be clear - I'm using it to mean theories which have no merit.

For example, I absolutely agree that people interested in how oil companies conspire with fixers to prop up thuggish regimes just so the can secure drilling rights is doing sterling work. I think that someone investigating how the ZOG government faked phone calls from the 9/11 planes is very much not. And in fact is only indulging their various psychological issues, one of which may well be to appear more enlightened than the next man.

a reply to: JuniorDisco

All I am saying, is that the habit of lumping all conspiracy theorists into one mass, and judging their exploits as a whole, is no more valid than a generalisation about anything else. It is always an error.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: JuniorDisco

All I am saying, is that the habit of lumping all conspiracy theorists into one mass, and judging their exploits as a whole, is no more valid than a generalisation about anything else. It is always an error.

Fair enough, I'm sure that's true. It's just that by my definition of 'conspiracy theorist', their travails are always pointless and usually self serving. If one takes a wider definition then that may not be the case.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I refuse to believe that proponents of 9/11 truth have just gone quiet, I refuse to believe they have just run out of new theories or view points to discuss.

The cheese stands alone.

This is just so typical of ATS and the self serving attitude that their 'opinion' is so worldly no discussion can take place without their genius. This has nothing to do whatsoever about conspiracy theorist and their other beliefs.

Just change the damn subject and bless the world with their opinion.

This project is being done to highlight the books that conspiracy theorist have published and how they have changed-or-progressed-in the last few years.

Thankfully, this project is being posted on other forums as well as ATS to stir debate about the 9/11 and the mass media. As always, no debate here but let me derail this thing to showcase my own importance-at the same time showing complete ignorance of one of the most dramatized, debated and discussed event in world history.

I even had a list of persons I knew would curtail all this work that I put in while mods snoozed and I was not disappointed. I didn't get win-place and show exactly but darn close.

No more wondering about why the 9/11 thread is dead.

The Truth Movement - the legitimate Truth Movement - has only ever pushed for a new and complete investigation.

I agree totally and I have attempted to highlight Professor Griffin and others that have always maintained that a proper investigation would showcase discrepancies in the official story without being accusatory and making up ridiculous tall tales to highlight themselves.

This highlights the difference in the approach of the books have taken.


Lets start with the odd excitement over the sad death of golfer Payne Stewart.. Having absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 some agenda freaks see an opportunity for a little slight of hand to spice things up. Lets put in our book that we can prove that Bush issued a 'stand down' to the military to stroke his murderous plot. You see after communications was lost as apparently the Jet had suffered a cabin pressure leak at 39,000 feet rendering the occupants comatose to a certain degree. Then the military scrambled a jet to intercept the doomed craft. Let's make it realistic and say it caught the stricken jet in 15-21 minutes. You see Bush had plenty of time to shoot down all those planes on 9/11 he just needed a higher body count-lets print it. Some time later the now soon to be unemployed publisher gets a call from a lawyer representing the Stewart family-he is not happy. It seems that your genius researcher/author told a little lie. That was that the fighter jet that intercepted the golfers plane took off in EASTERN TIME-so it really took an HOUR and 15-21minuntes.This kind of thing is never forgiven-ever. You can stroke Mary Poppins/cure cancer/and find the Holy Grail but you will never ever get anything but BAD from the media and the bastard world of books forever.

This deception simply can't be argued away as a simple mistake-and once it's printed it there forever.

Here is another one from Marrs 9/11 Deception.

In attempting to show that Flight 93 was shot down on orders from president Bush after the FBI-listening in on phone calls-that remember never took place-found out that the passengers were about to take over the plane and land it-spoiling the pot so to speak. Telling readers that Indian Lake residents saw parts of the airplane and ejected material in the Lake-that is 5 miles away-well outside the ejecta blanket. This, they say is rock solid evidence, that can't be debunked!

Yes, Indian lake is 5 miles away from the crash site BY ROAD-however as the crow files it's less than a mile and one quarter-well within the ejecta blanket. This kind of deception is later thrown off by Publishers by saying it's "for a target audience" and not the public in general. The target audience being of course-idiots.

What is uncommon is lists of the 14 works that use these deceptions-and the ones that don't. Perhaps it is some what uplifting that less than half use this trickery.

The Alex Jones 'absolute solutions' is next up.

a reply to: JuniorDisco

…only indulging their various psychological issues, one of which may well be to appear more enlightened than the next man.

I agree with that. In the real world some boisterous people who appear to disagree with something about 911 go to ground zero and outshout each other in an egocentric contest of who has the loudest voice. You can't make out what they are saying when they do this and who would want to engage them in conversation anyway.

They don't converse they just yell.

short of some new and verifiable information coming to light, i think everything that can be said about 9/11 (from whichever 'side of the fence' one stands) has been said. at some point arguing one's opinion for the thousandth time becomes pointless. for me at least.

a reply to: RoScoLaz

Good reply and I somewhat agree however I don't think anyone has ever attempted to do a mass review of all the books and give them some perspective and how truthers were hijacked by agenda freaks with self serving motivation and then disinformation attempts by the same agenda infatuated persons that felt their star no longer shines.

Also, to highlight the original post that the 9/11 forum is dying because of a flawed policy that doesn't allows people with solid knowledge of the events to post because of a number based on a popularity contest. That is why ATS is not a conspiracy discussion group because opinions that differ from the main are suppressed. Also, anyone who attempts to add perspective, to any discussion, or their own post, especially those involving police officers, are routinely drowned out by reply's that have nothing to do with the original post by the same people over and over again.

A look at this thread shows that about as plain as it can be shown. Free and open discussion should not be based on the popularity of the persons viewpoint-or dislike of their position-as, again, is shown as plainly as it can be in this post.

If that is the policy fine- just don't continue to speak of free and open discussion when clearly, that is not the case.

The conspiracy aspect of the event will never subside due to the amount of unknowns related to it. Discussion about it is declining due to all sides of the debate being too polarised by now to consider anything alternative to their perspectives on it all, not to mention all the 'crazy' theories (eg nukes & holgrams) that are very likely thrown in to disrupt what might have been a productive discussion.

The whole truth may never be known and I'd not be amazed to learn that no-one (CT or official) has the whole truth to date. Even if the whole truth of it came out I wouldn't expect it to be universally accepted.

(Slips back into the spectator seats now).

I think everyone's mind is made up on this subject. That could change with new information, but there hasn't been any new information for 10 years or so.

The last 911 threads I scanned were mostly references to previous posts and threads.

And a need to know many hours of physical science becomes apparent to a serious inquirer.

100 to 1000 hours of learning and thinking about physics I guess. Maybe more, I'm old enough that I don't remember how many I spent.

The conspiracy aspect of the event will never subside due to the amount of unknowns related to it.

You simply can't back that up with facts. The only 'unknowns' are hypothetical conjecture that simply refuses to give up the notion that the government killed more than 3,000 of it's citizens motivated by a fairytale of world domination.

There is not one single shred of proof, either physical, circumstantial, anecdotal or witness that proves the government murdered all those people in a ever widening plot that involves 100's if not thousands of people.

That is where the whole thing falls apart and all that is left is picking things out to criticize that have nothing to do with evidence that the President of the United States murdered all those civilians and military personal.

The conspiracy aspect of the event will never subside due to the amount of unknowns related to it.

The unknowns are only in the mind of the conspiracy believer.
Because of that their mind 'makes up' things to smooth over the unknown.
Just like religion.

a reply to: spooky24

I don't align myself or my views with the fringe bottom feeders of any movement. I also reject the use of these freaks and their agenda by apologists of the official conspiracy theory. The battles within the reexamine the 9/11 attacks movement exist between the fringe freaks and the legit investigators. You've just tried to build your case against reexamining this mass murder case here on the claims of the same people that the legit "truthers" have been fighting against for years. It's disingenuous at the very least.

originally posted by: theMediator

originally posted by: cestrup
There's 3 people in this discussion in every thread I've read - Shills, people who are partiotic and could never fathom our government conspiring against its people, and people who challenge official narrative in some/all capacities.

Pretty much.
People made their minds up a while ago
Till we really have something new, a game changer, not much will happen with 9/11 forum IMO.

This...At this point,those that have an opinion,have their minds made up.I agree it would take some kind of new evidence for folks to change their opinions.I would'nt hold my breath.

The battles within the reexamine the 9/11 attacks movement exist between the fringe freaks and the legit investigators.

Again, I could not agree more. Of the 14 books in the study-12 actually-as the 2 by Ventura are about the stupidest things I have ever read and would never put that off on my worst enemy. It's easy to separate those cashing in on a movement and those who actually try to resolve their unanswered questions.

Griffin released another paper-this time trying to explain his deductions and wiggle out of embarrassing statements that are getting him a much feared lawsuit by the family of Barbara Olson. He claims that he never said that she "was part of the plot and now living it up on a south sea island-that was planted disinformation. He also withdraws his statement that all the witnesses at the Pentagon that saw an American Airlines plane impact the Pentagon were all connected to the military and silenced by an order of VP Chaney. Of the 23 witnesses only 3 were part of the military and that error, he explains, was due to 'false information'

In justifying his absolute positive claim that a missile, or a small military plane, impacted instead of a 100,000 ton airplane he says this.

" The fact that witnesses saw an incorrect assessment as to the identity of what they saw, since they could not have seen what they claim as they had no way of knowing that the plane was Flight 77 since it was not painted on the side of the fuselage" So, since they could not identify flight 77 then that leaves open the possibility that it was a missile"

I must admit that is some damn good squealing.

As expected now that their butts are in the sling all the crap they made money floating is now 'disinformation' and 'false deductions' along with my personal favorite 'factual inventory errors'

We agree here that these people who pawned all this stuff to make money from suckers have, and never have had, any intention of doing a proper investigation because the motivation was money-not the truth. Also, anyone wanting a real investigation would have never put in print these horrible and insulting statements.