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Did Judas betray Jesus Christ??

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posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 03:13 PM
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A while back I was watching a Discovery channel special on the last week of Jesus' life. In it, a scholar made a suggestion that Judas had not actually betrayed Jesus, but that Jesus and Judas were actually in it together. The scholar claims that the words for betrayal and traitor were mistranslated.
I came across an article today written by someone who saw the same thing on tv.

Please read the article here.

What do you all think about this?

I personally find this theory both incredible and possible. An interesting bit of information: Judas is the only disciple who Jesus refers to as "friend" throughout the entire bible.




posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 03:43 PM
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"The infamous Judas was termed "Iscariot." This term refers to his hometown of Kerioth, in southern Judah"
its also thought to refer to a type of knife, an iscari or something. So he'd be Judas the knifeman in this band of men running thru the wilderness.

"The Greek word used for betrayal, paradidomi, does not mean only a traitorous action. It can also be translated, according to Strong's Greek Dictionary (a standard reference) as "to surrender, yield up, entrust or transmit," without necessarily implying underhandedness."

Interesting take, certainly seems reasonable to think that the exact terms weren't properly used.

"Working at Jesus' initiative, Judas had no reason to believe that the Jewish high council harbored lethal intent toward Jesus. Thus, when Jesus was condemned, Judas was overcome with grief and remorse at having had a part in delivering up Jesus to that fate. So he killed himself. "
I suppose that that is a decent, but perhaps a little naive explanation of it. But why wouldn't he tell the others that jesus wanted him to hand him over?

"John's Gospel also identifies Judas as a traitor:
John 18:5: "Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) "
Well that sort of clearly ids him as a traitor, not the 'hander overer'.

"How did Jesus know that Judas would betray him? None of the other disciples knew. Like the other Gospels, John 13 relates that Jesus gathered his disciple for a meal on his last evening as a free man. After an instructional discourse to them, Jesus informed them, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me" (v. 21)."
And here jesus calls him a traitor/betrayer. Why would he do this to judas, which the article makes the case was his otherwise good friend?

"As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "
Why would they say that that occured? They make the story seem like it was decided then, on the handing of the bread, and that they all would've known what to do if they were chosen, and, furthermore, tries to say that 'traitor' should read 'the one who turned him over'. But why wouldn't they be more clear? Is it because they want it to seem like divine will, not a plan? Then why include any of it at all? I suppose that the very early christian community could've understood it to mean that, and then perhaps later on it was changed because people thought it either didn't make sense or smacked of 'fakeness' to arrange ones own death.


I have often wondered why Judas is said to be in hell, if one accepts 'faith only'. He 'betrays' jesus (or whatever according to this) but he doesn't reject him as a 'personal saviour' and whatnot. He should be saved as any other apostle no?

edit to add:
"So they persuaded Pilate that Jesus was actually attempting insurrection against Rome"
On this I shouldn't think it'd take too much convincing no? Since he was calling for the destruction of rome and most of the world and the overturning of the old order, the establishment of his new kingdom and his divine rule and no to mention that the messiah is supposed to be a military leader who overthrows foreign oppressors in judea. Some have speculated that the jesus movement was in fact as radical as it appears, not unlike the zealots and other marauding jewish bands in the wilderness, but that, in order to accomodate itself to Roman rule, especially after their leader was captured and executed, it revamped all that.

However this whole 'arrangment' idea would seem to contradict that they were moving for radical overthrow.

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Nygdan]



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 03:49 PM
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Of course not...I have always thought it silly people felt that way...apparently according to the Christian belief...it had to be done, someone had to do it. It had been planned from the start of time as a "god" knows everything anyway and all outcomes of everything. It's more like Judas was the poor guy that got chosen to do it. If he hadn't done it Jesus wouldn't of been crucified which was what was supposed to happen because for some reason someone had to die to erase sin
....how I'll never understand but aaaaaaanyway....



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 03:53 PM
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I have often wondered why Judas is said to be in hell, if one accepts 'faith only'. He 'betrays' jesus (or whatever according to this) but he doesn't reject him as a 'personal saviour' and whatnot. He should be saved as any other apostle no?


I think the idea that Judas is in hell is something that came along in the fictional work, Inferno by Dante. But I'm sure most Christians believe Judas is in hell as well.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 04:10 PM
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Christ referred to Judas as a 'son of perdition', and that of all those given to him before the time of his death (referring to the apostles) none had been lost except for one - Judas.

The implication is that Judas did betray Jesus, and for his betrayal, he was lost.


"And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy Name, which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one. While I was with them, I kept them in Thy Name, which Thou hast given Me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:11-12 RSV)

www.keyway.ca...

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Pisky]



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Pisky


The implication is that Judas did betray Jesus, and for his betrayal, he was lost.



[edit on 29-11-2004 by Pisky]

Why? Someone had to do it...that was the plan was it not? Makes no sense at all to me!



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 04:24 PM
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I agree with the last post. It has to do with the old biblical conundrum that if God had already planned everything, then it was all destined to happen from the fall of Eden to the crucifiction of Jesus. This is an interesting and blashemous thought for most Christians, because it implies that God is the god of good and evil, and there is no outside influence (ie Satan) driving the actions of those with evil intentions, except for perhaps the humans themselves. How then can Judas be in hell for what God planned for him eternities before he was born?



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 04:26 PM
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Interesting, akumakatus. I hadn't thought about it like that.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV
Why? Someone had to do it...that was the plan was it not? Makes no sense at all to me!


Exactly,LadyV.
Why blame Judas for something he had no control of ?

Judas Iscariot - is he in Heaven or Hell ?



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:18 PM
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Simple, Lady, it had to be done, Christ had to die, and so He did. Now, you question why it happened the way it happened. Want to know why you question they way it happened? Because it did not happen another way! Had that happened, we would be sitting around asking questions about that way.

Christ knew Judas was going to be the one to betray Him because at that point He knew as God; He had already been Baptized. They weren't in cahoots, Christ merely knew the future.

Werer Judas in on it with Christ, it would make no sense for him to becaome despondant and hang himself. As it goes so often, Satan or one of his demons uses a human (after all, we are young and stupid and Satan and his legions have had thousands of years to gain knowledge on how to play us) and then leaves the human to feel the guilt.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Christ knew Judas was going to be the one to betray Him because at that point He knew as God; He had already been Baptized. They weren't in cahoots, Christ merely knew the future.


I often wonder what would have happened if Judas had been like the other apostles and not betrayed Christ. If his conscience had overruled his love for money and he had turned down the Sanhedrin's request.

Maybe he was deliberately chosen because he had treacherous tendencies. That would explain a lot.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 06:27 PM
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Groupies:

Don't forget that the whole Passion Narrative sections of the Gospels are essentially Midrashic compilations or stories built out of or heavilly influened by the exact wording of certain Old Testament and pseudipigraphical verses.

HINT: Read DEATH OF THE MESSIAH by Raymond Brown for a solid overview of this subject verse by verse by verse by verse. A great eye opener to the layman on how the Passion Narratives came to be written the way they did.

Interestingly perhaps: the Midrash that lay behind the "betrayal scene" is based on some SPECIFIC verses in some books OUTSIDE of the later canonical old Testament, e.g. Wisdom of Solomon etc.

Here's one example picked at random that should ring a bell to anyone who knows the Passion Narrative about the ARREST on the Hill:

"SORROWFUL UNTO DEATH IS THE MAN TO WHOM HIS BEST FRIEND HATH BETRAYED HIM..." (from, The Wisdom of Solomon, chapter 1) = from a book found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls and quoted "as scripture" by the first Disciples and by many of the early church bishops before AD 250 ("Fathers").

Notice the catch word "Sorrowful unto Death" in the Wisdom of Solomon AND the Gospel narrative is linked with the idea of a "Betrayal of a Friend" ("and Iesous said, Behold the Son of Man is SORROWFUL UNTO DEATH...") when he realised Judas was not where he should have been that night.

So the CONNEXION with "Sorrow" and "friend" is literary, not necessarily purely histroical. I don't think anyone on that hill that night was taking notes.

It's clear that the texts are not pure history, but years later trying to make sense by Midrashing the Scriptures of what happened (probably unexpectedly----Iesous probably did not know that something was wrong until Yehudah bar Shimeon Ish Keryiota ("Judas son of Simon the Man who Handed Over" = Yehduah Ish Keryiah would have been his former name, Yehudah, the Man who Handed Out (i.e. Money to the Poor, i.e. the Bursar) went shall we say missing when the gang went up to the Mount of Olives with their ear cutting swords to wait for the Kingdom of God to apppear "at any minute" and for the "Son of Man to appear in glory" with his "holy angels with him"...

Raymond Brown's Book is a must-read if you want to understand the midrashic tendenz in the Passion Narratives---I highly recommend buying the 2 volumes (available now on Amazon.com)...but they are not cheap so see if you can get them used...!

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Amadeus]



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 06:58 PM
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I'm Chrisitian and i was always taught that Judas was in heaven because he repented and felt sorry for his sins but I dont at least I think he is in heaven but others may not put him in there one of them being Dante but not all of his allegory parallels the Catholic/Christian teachings if I believe correctly.



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Pisky
John 17:11-12 RSV


Interesting. I'd think that sol fides would have to prevent this. Why is Judas alone of all men denied salvation? I understand god's a little pissed, what with getting fixed on a cross with iron nails and nearly flayed a live, but comeon, he's god, he coulda stopped it.


TC
and then leaves the human to feel the guilt.

Do you also think that this indicates that sol fides must not hold true?

[edit on 29-11-2004 by Nygdan]



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Kaiser617
I'm Chrisitian and i was always taught that Judas was in heaven because he repented and felt sorry for his sins but I dont at least I think he is in heaven but others may not put him in there one of them being Dante but not all of his allegory parallels the Catholic/Christian teachings if I believe correctly.



Originally posted by Nygdan
Why is Judas alone of all men denied salvation?


From what I remember, he hung himself after betraying Christ. Could it be that he is in hell not for the betrayal, but for the sin of suicide ?



posted on Nov, 29 2004 @ 09:30 PM
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I always thought that Judas was greatly under-appreciated.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 01:16 AM
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there is a passage in the gnostic gospels i think. jesus is talking to judas and
tells him " you have the harder job, I only have to die . you must give me up."



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 07:27 AM
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My main beef is the two different Judas's in the New Testament. Especially one being the supposed twin of the messiah and the other being the one who betrayed him.

I think the Jesus and Judas story was the continuation of the pattern of two brothers in the bible. One materially focused the other spiritually focused. The story of Jacob and Esau best illustrates this, but it can also clearly be seen in Cain/Able and Moses/Pharaoh.

Genesis 25

23 The LORD said to her,

"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

The two races in one race is the main theme of the Old Testament. The covenant with god is established through Abraham for one race (Now this doesn't mean race as in skin color or bloodline, this means race as in "mind
set") Jesus for everyone else.

Jesus' death can be seen as a sacrifice by Judas much in the same way as Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son to establish the original covenant with god.

"Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself, and learn who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. Since you will be called my brother, it is not fitting that you be ignorant of yourself." The Book of Thomas the Contender

"These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded." The Gospel of Thomas

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."

Serena



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by SerenaLei
The story of Jacob and Esau best illustrates this, but it can also clearly be seen in Cain/Able and Moses/Pharaoh.

'twins' is actually a possible universal theme in human society. Supposedly when some ethnologists/linguists were reconstructing the Proto-Indo-European language they were also able to reconstruct a primitive/basal indo-european culture/mythology. One of the earliest parts is a Story of two gods, one named Man the other named Twin.


Genesis 25

This however is genesis, not any gospel, and to claim that it is talking about jesus is either a position of faith or to be talking about how christians perceive their religions, but it can't be 'entered' as supporting that jesus had a twin brother.


The Book of Thomas the Contender

I am unfamiliar with this book, when did it appear and what is its status?


"These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded." The Gospel of Thomas

This however is not part of christian cannon and not considered to be authentic. Besides, what did that passage have to do with the judas/jesus twin idea? The thomas in it is supposed to be the apostle St. Thomas, Doubting Thomas, who 'evangelized' to iran, iraq india and the east in general, not the Judas that turns jesus over. There isn't any 'Gospel of Judas' that I am aware of.



posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by Ravenna
From what I remember, he hung himself after betraying Christ. Could it be that he is in hell not for the betrayal, but for the sin of suicide ?

I would think that there has to be some sort of stance on that, and that it would have to affect something. Since the 'twin' idea has already been brought up, I think that there would also be a connection between jesus on the cross and judas hung in a tree. That symbol/theme is very common across many religions. Apparently in the Innanna resurrection myth, inanna travels to the underworld, is judged by the (infamous here) Annunaki and hung from a tree. She later comes back to life and returns to the living world and frees the souls trapped in the underworld. In the osiris myth too, his corpse is in tree and he is ressurected from the dead.



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