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Is the Judeo-Christian God evil?

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posted on May, 21 2014 @ 10:29 AM
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Well here refute what the Christian God has already stated....


(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"




posted on May, 21 2014 @ 10:50 AM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: AgnosticDeity




Text a reply to: Seede Well I can't speak for the god of Abraham, but if I were to take my children and put them in a room with something I didn't want them to have they would run directly for said object... It seems to me that this god fellow had an obvious lapse if judgement by placing the tree of knowledge in easy reach of his children... I mean I'm obviously not the creator of the known universe and even I know to child proof my house.

Exactly right. That is the logical thing for you to do.
And that is exactly why God did the opposite from what you would do. He put them in that garden with the very thing that He wanted them to have. God wanted them to have knowledge so he put knowledge in front of them knowing that they would partake of this knowledge. If God did not want them to have knowledge of good and evil, then He would have done exactly what you have said you would do for your children. God did not want His children to remain ignorant. He wanted to teach them.


Then why the punishment, and the warning not to eat from the tree? I don't give my children a gift and then punish them for accepting it... Seems rather oxymoronic to me.



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 10:57 AM
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a reply to: Seede

God did not want His children to remain ignorant. He wanted to teach them.
They were not educated, but deceived, if you go according to what the Bible says, and led astray.

Genesis 3:13-14
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock . . .

(2011 NIV)

A little odd, if the serpent was doing The Lord's bidding, that he gets cursed for his troubles.
Also The Lord does not correct Eve when she says that the serpent had deceived her.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
(2011 NIV)

Disobeying The Lord did not end well for anyone.

If God did not want them to have knowledge of good and evil, then He would have done exactly what you have said you would do for your children.
The garden would have been the showcase of all the blessings that The Lord provided for the earth.
The people were there to appreciate how nice it was.
The so-called tree of knowledge was a source for the skill of practicing evil.
It was the lie of the serpent that there was some useful knowledge that would be an advantage to them.
Also it is not explicit in the text that The Lord had put the tree there in the first place.
Despite claims otherwise by some members of this forum, they were not children, so understood perfectly well the dangers, but also had the capacity to ignore it if they chose.
edit on 21-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 11:14 AM
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a reply to: Seede

Adam was punished for disobedience and that punishment was to deprive him of the beauty and tranquility of the garden.
Then it would have been sufficient to just bar him from reentry to the garden, rather than cursing the Earth as a whole.

This was restored in New Jerusalem in heaven.
It isn't in Heaven, though it may have been a heavenly sort of vision when John saw it.
It is probably metaphorical for how the curse is to be lifted, that there is a life to come that will be like what was originally intended.



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: jheated5



Text So in other words God is incapable of evil? Then that right there nullifies him as almighty God by any standards. If you are truly good, then your creation which is an extension of yourself, God man in our image, never got the "our" part means he must exhibit all human emotions and we could never have sinned in the first place.... Assuming of course that version of God is real...

By your standards or by God's standards. By whose standards do you judge God? Evil is incapable of existence within God but not by God. As God creates, He takes from Himself and detaches that portion from His essence. Evil is not of His essence because He created evil and it is a tool to His liking. He uses evil as a tool in His purpose but He is not that tool. As this creation ends, so will the tool of evil end. Did not God cast out this spirit from His heavens when He cast out the angels who sinned?

No one is truly good. All of creation has sinned with accountability at one time. The knowledge of sin is not the same as the act of sin. The tree in the garden was the tree of knowledge of good and evil and not the tree of doing good and evil.



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 12:30 PM
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originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Seede

God did not want His children to remain ignorant. He wanted to teach them.
They were not educated, but deceived, if you go according to what the Bible says, and led astray.

Genesis 3:13-14
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock . . .

(2011 NIV)

A little odd, if the serpent was doing The Lord's bidding, that he gets cursed for his troubles.
Also The Lord does not correct Eve when she says that the serpent had deceived her.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
(2011 NIV)

Disobeying The Lord did not end well for anyone.

If God did not want them to have knowledge of good and evil, then He would have done exactly what you have said you would do for your children.
The garden would have been the showcase of all the blessings that The Lord provided for the earth.
The people were there to appreciate how nice it was.
The so-called tree of knowledge was a source for the skill of practicing evil.
It was the lie of the serpent that there was some useful knowledge that would be an advantage to them.
Also it is not explicit in the text that The Lord had put the tree there in the first place.
Despite claims otherwise by some members of this forum, they were not children, so understood perfectly well the dangers, but also had the capacity to ignore it if they chose.


Correct me if I'm wrong here. What you are saying is that the god of Abraham, who according to the jeudeo Christian mythos, created everything... Didn't put the tree of knowledge in the garden. Doesn't that make this god figure a little... Less than all powerful? Or did it allow the serpent to plant the tree, and then tempt it's creation into defying it's will? But wouldn't this make this god figure a bit sadistic? Considering that it is omniscient, and omnipresent according to the mythos it would know exactly how things would play out... Seems to me that it set its creation up to fail.



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 01:36 PM
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a reply to: AgnosticDeity




Text Correct me if I'm wrong here. What you are saying is that the god of Abraham, who according to the jeudeo Christian mythos, created everything... Didn't put the tree of knowledge in the garden. Doesn't that make this god figure a little... Less than all powerful? Or did it allow the serpent to plant the tree, and then tempt it's creation into defying it's will? But wouldn't this make this god figure a bit sadistic? Considering that it is omniscient, and omnipresent according to the mythos it would know exactly how things would play out... Seems to me that it set its creation up to fail.

You are getting close. Yes, the God of Abraham did create both celestial and terrestrial creations. Yes. He did put the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life in the Gan Eden. No, the trees did not create themselves nor were they planted by the serpent. No, there is nothing in the legends of creation that infers that anyone or any happening created the trees in the garden other than God. God did all of this by and through His Word.

The human race has made themselves into this mess by their own choice. That is what we got when we got free will (knowledge of right and wrong). God gave this entire earth to people to govern according to His teachings. It was not God who is the one at fault but people who are at fault. Without knowledge of good and evil there would be no free will. Without free will there could be no true love from His creation. Without true love there can be no association with the Creator. Salvation of a person comes only through true love to the Creator God. Without true love from creation, that creation cannot live eternally as a child of God. So what am I saying? I am saying that knowing the difference between good and evil had to be shown and in order for it to be shown it had to exist and in order for it to exist it had to be created. That is why the scripture tells us that it was indeed created. It serves its purpose as a teaching tool.



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: AgnosticDeity

Correct me if I'm wrong here. What you are saying is that the god of Abraham, who according to the jeudeo Christian mythos, created everything... Didn't put the tree of knowledge in the garden. Doesn't that make this god figure a little... Less than all powerful?
I don't think that it says that The Lord created everything.
'The Elohim (whoever they are) created the heavens and the earth', it starts out, without specifying exactly when that was, so it seems to be a very broad statement, then followed up by the particulars, beginning with a chaotic abyss.
If you look beyond just the book of Genesis, to other biblical creation references, you see that the earth and the ocean were entities in themselves who are represented by the Leviathan and the Behemoth, that The Lord had to subdue.
So there was a conflict that was never fully resolved, but there was like a truce between them, where they are not gods exactly but elementals with god-like abilities.
"All-Powerful" is a product of Medieval thinking.

Or did it allow the serpent to plant the tree, and then tempt it's creation into defying it's will?
The Earth caused the tree of knowledge to come up as an exercise of its own will, with The Lord unable to prevent it.
The serpent may have been a creation of the Elohim but enlisted in the service of the Earth, later to be cursed to crawling on the earth as poetic justice.

But wouldn't this make this god figure a bit sadistic?
Not if it was something that just happened, not "allowed", which would also eliminate the "all-knowing" part, which makes no sense if angels have the job of watching and then reporting back to heaven.

Considering that it is omniscient, and omnipresent according to the mythos it would know exactly how things would play out... Seems to me that it set its creation up to fail.
Like I said, these attributes are Medieval products adduced through the logic of that age of absolutes.
edit on 21-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 03:22 PM
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a reply to: Seede

The human race has made themselves into this mess by their own choice. That is what we got when we got free will (knowledge of right and wrong).
It wasn't the tree of right and wrong.
It was the tree of the opportunity to act out evil (being disobedient).
They already were able to exercise their will, that wasn't what was new.
The Genesis story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is not really so much a biographical account as an object lesson.
I think it was a serious problem at the time of the writing of this book, that Israelites were being lured away from YHWH to the earth worship religions.

edit on 21-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: AgnosticDeity




They were not educated, but deceived, if you go according to what the Bible says, and led astray.

Regardless of word play, they were educated. In the end play they both gained the same knowledge of good and evil. Therefore they gained knowledge and that is being educated. Anytime anyone is taught then that is considered an education in whatsoever it was that was taught. I realize that Eve made the excuse that she was deceived or cheated but God did not buy her excuse nor did God buy into Adam's excuse. In fact He did not buy any of their excuses. God gave Adam the command and anthology tells us that Adam gave Eve the command. God would not be just without reward or punishment. Our understanding is not the Lord God's understanding. Without having this knowledge Adam and Eve would have remained ignorant of good and evil (good or bad).



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 04:38 PM
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a reply to: Seede

I realize that Eve made the excuse that she was deceived or cheated but God did not buy her excuse nor did God buy into Adam's excuse.
According to what?
You have to go with what the words say because the whole thing is word pictures.
By The Lord's actions, He did "buy" into their explanations.

Our understanding is not the Lord God's understanding.
What we are tasked to understand is the text, what the story says, not to analyse what would have happened under different circumstances.

Without having this knowledge Adam and Eve would have remained ignorant of good and evil (good or bad).
You say that as if it was a good thing, even though the story is obviously meant to convey how everything bad came into the world.


edit on 21-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 06:46 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60




TextIt wasn't the tree of right and wrong.

Actually it was the spirit of disobedience which was brought on by the will to do whatsoever they wanted to do. They were aware that God told them that they would die if they ate of this tree. What they thought at the moment of disobedience we shall never know but we do know one thing with certainty and that is after they ate, of whatever it was on that tree, they became aware of several things including that of being naked. So we know that the entire episode gave them the awareness of being naked and of being disobedient.

But now the question could be asked as to exactly what is evil in the understanding of God? We are taught to believe that Adam and Eve were punished for disobedience but was this the same as evil? In other words was this knowledge of evil which was revealed to Adam and Eve the same as that act of disobedience of which they were punished?

Then what about the serpent? In my understanding the serpent was punished for sedition and not for just an act of disobedience of a command from God. Then was the misconduct of Adam and Eve actually evil and is evil necessarily disobedience? Is this spirit of disobedience that Adam and Eve embraced the same evil that was revealed from the tree? Is all disobedience evil? Is there a distinction between the two in the mind of God?

In my understanding one can disobey with out malice and one can disobey with malice. Is there a difference with God in that sense? I cannot read malice into the garden story except perhaps with the serpent.
I am not thoroughly convinced as to the scriptures meaning.



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 08:09 PM
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a reply to: Seede

We are taught to believe that Adam and Eve were punished for disobedience but was this the same as evil?
What we are "taught" by Paul in Romans was that Adam sinned and because of that death came into the world so that now everyone naturally is prone to sin with the inevitable result of death.
Evil is the result of sin, according to the Bible.

In other words was this knowledge of evil which was revealed to Adam and Eve the same as that act of disobedience of which they were punished?
I think you are trying to take this too literally.
I think this is like I said, a fable type explanation for why people in general so often behave badly, and probably mostly why most nations don't follow the same God that Israel does.
The "good" people overcome these disadvantages and still try to worship this god even if it is with diminished capacity.

I cannot read malice into the garden story except perhaps with the serpent.
It is sort of vague on that probably on purpose so as to not take the focus away from the actual act, which is the real character, this sort of smooth talking that may be the view of the Jerusalem priesthood of the seducing influence to engage in false worship in the "groves" or other natural places like caves.
edit on 21-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2014 @ 08:25 PM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Just read the OT and you can clearly see why some people think this god is evil...

I think a better question would be, is the god of the OT really God?

My answer to that is absolutely not...

God would not contradict himself, Nor does he have any reason to "command" any of his children to commit the horrible atrocities found within those books...

Heres Another good question...
IS this so called god an actual entity? This I do not know...

The gnostics believed it was a false god... So it is either false god, or stories from the minds of man who either thought they were speaking about God or inspired by said God... OR... people with agendas using God as a method to control a people who didn't know any better



Yup; Mankind created God in its own image; God is a plasma field of energy that organized itself to produce man in order to make sense of itself. So because/as man created or imagined a God because it couldn't reason THAT BEING OR FORCE, it would contain (like a human) all of the natural psychological tendencies humans possess, Evil intent, Goodness. Man does not understand that initial force, or the "god particle field' yet. Oh the agendas and usership of the innocent on behalf a god self created in mans image not so, again: Man created God in its image; its criminal; or you could look at it this way, Mankind is very imaginative and imagined a reluctant being (because it cant show itself its made up of 1s and 0s) into false existence. What happens next, the sudden appearance of physical Prophets in the middle east WHY?
edit on 21-5-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2014 @ 10:30 AM
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a reply to: jmdewey60


Text What we are "taught" by Paul in Romans was that Adam sinned and because of that death came into the world so that now everyone naturally is prone to sin with the inevitable result of death. Evil is the result of sin, according to the Bible.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Thank you. That was exactly the answer that I was hoping that you would give. Sin is evil and evil is sin but before Adam ate of the tree of Knowledge of sin, he was not held accountable for sin because with knowledge of what sin is came law. After knowledge of sin was revealed to the world then all creation was accountable that would sin and that would include all creation.


Text I think you are trying to take this too literally. I think this is like I said, a fable type explanation for why people in general so often behave badly, and probably mostly why most nations don't follow the same God that Israel does. The "good" people overcome these disadvantages and still try to worship this god even if it is with diminished capacity.

And now we are back to Hyperbole once again. Who gets to decide that Romans 5:12-14 is not literal and is a fable? By your belief the Genesis account is also fable. Which parts of the bible are actually true and are not fable or metaphors? Is this a judgment on your part? You are entangled in a deep misguided understanding of the bible and you do not seem to grasp reality of the authors intent. This may be from reading and believing the commentaries of those who contradict the biblical authors.



Text It is sort of vague on that probably on purpose so as to not take the focus away from the actual act, which is the real character, this sort of smooth talking that may be the view of the Jerusalem priesthood of the seducing influence to engage in false worship in the "groves" or other natural places like caves.

That makes no common sense in any way possible. At this time the Apostle Paul was not involved with the Jerusalem priesthood and had divorced himself from their influence so there would not be any sense for him to propagate his knowing that it would be false. You seem to forget that Saul was a Sanhedrin and a pupil of the elder Gamaliel who was the Nasi of the Sanhedrin. Saul was next in line for Nasi and would surly have been aware of this deception that you believe was instigated by this priesthood. So in effect you are propagating the seed that Paul was aware that this was a fable and preached this fable to his fellow men. That is preposterous and a totally unfounded accusation. How in the world could you have even imagined this concocted story?

Enough said.



posted on May, 22 2014 @ 12:13 PM
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a reply to: Seede

That makes no common sense in any way possible. At this time the Apostle Paul was not involved with the Jerusalem priesthood . . .
"Common sense" should tell you that I was talking about the writers of the Garden story in Genesis.
If I meant the writer of Romans, I would have said, "Paul".

My mention of "groves" is not accidental and is what I think the 'tree of knowledge' represents in the story, the problem that the Israelite authorities were constantly having trouble with, the tendency for the common people to go to private worships in the groves, which would have been seen by the temple priesthood as being "pagan".
Paul never talked about the evils of worshiping in groves.

Thank you. That was exactly the answer that I was hoping that you would give. Sin is evil and evil is sin . . .
I did not say that, equating sin and evil.
That is what you are saying.
I said evil entered into the world because of sin.

but before Adam ate of the tree of Knowledge of sin, he was not held accountable for sin because with knowledge of what sin is came law. After knowledge of sin was revealed to the world then all creation was accountable that would sin and that would include all creation.
It sounds like you are trying to say that God created evil by making a law, so that breaking the law made evil real.

And now we are back to Hyperbole once again. Who gets to decide that Romans 5:12-14 is not literal and is a fable?
I think you are confusing yourself here.
I didn't quote Romans, you did, I was just referencing "Paul".
My main discussion was on the Eden story, not Romans.
So if I mentioned "fable type description", then it should have been obvious that I meant that, the Eden story.
Your thinking that I meant the Book of Romans seems a bit unjustified to me.

By your belief the Genesis account is also fable.
It has all the indications of being of the "fable-type" genre, a woman pulled out of the body of a man, a talking snake, a magic set of trees, one evil and the other good but only as long as you don't eat first from the evil one.

Which parts of the bible are actually true and are not fable or metaphors? Is this a judgment on your part?
Everything is a "judgment on my part".
I'm not like a cult member who believes every word that my cult leader says.
I look at things written by the experts in their fields and weigh different opinions with the evidence, and come to my own conclusions.
The reality is that a lot of the Bible is like parables and that is admitted by Jesus himself, that sometimes that is the best way to teach people difficult concepts to understand without some way to visualize it,
The fringe would be the people who somehow think everything in the Bible is literal.

What makes the Eden story a fable-type description of how evil entered the world is that according to the story, the fruit of the tree actually had powers to "open their eyes".
What this does is to take the responsibility for evil away from The Lord, and puts it on these mythical type things, the snake and the tree and its fruit.
What you are doing is subverting the purpose of the telling of this story and manipulating things so that then The Lord is responsible for evil.

So what is worse, seeing the parable in the story, or completely rejecting what obviously should be the object lesson from it?
edit on 22-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2014 @ 02:48 PM
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a reply to: AgnosticDeity




Text Then why the punishment, and the warning not to eat from the tree? I don't give my children a gift and then punish them for accepting it... Seems rather oxymoronic to me.

Sorry AgnosticDiety that I did not answer you.
In our way of understanding life is not God's way of understanding life. Yes it certainly is incongruous to most of us but in scriptural context it explains the reason for creation. Let me try to explain.

There was more in that garden besides the knowledge of what sin is. There was also the tree of life which would have enabled sin to propagate if also eaten by Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were punished for the act of disobedience and expelled from the garden so that they could not then live forever with this unchecked. It had to stop right there or God's creation would not be in His perfect will.

In order to educate people, you must first let them know the opposite factors. God had to present choice in this entire matter because He is truth by both reward and punishment. If God had not given the command to obey then Adam could not stand in judgement. The choice had to be given to obey or to disobey in order for a judgment to even exist. This is the reason that the command was given to not partake of this tree. God did exactly that. Now by punishment it may seem harsh to you and I but to God it is the best way to permit people the right to choose right from wrong. By giving the choice to people produces true character and love. God revealed law when He revealed sin (evil). By law is meant obeying (His perfect will) and disobeying (His permissive will). The permissive will is covered by grace (forgiveness).

By forcing Adam and Eve to leave the garden meant that Adam was no longer a gardener of the garden and that he would not have access to a sinful everlasting life. He would now have to really go to work and that is the reason the earth was cursed. It was cursed to make it hard to live in comparison to the garden.

As far as death is concerned. Death was a necessity because sin was propagated throughout the world and the world could no longer be Good such as was before sin was propagated. Therefore if the world would last forever then sin would also last forever. As the world would be destroyed then sin would also be destroyed. Now in order to keep this in perspective I will jump to the end of this creation. People by the trillions may have died with a perfect will and or a permissive will of God but at the end of this creation it will be shown the true character of the individual. Some will be justified by God and some will not be justified by God. Those who are justified will be allowed to live in the kingdom of heaven where sin (evil) is not present.

Sin has now been disallowed in this kingdom of heaven and here we are told that the trees and water of life are given to sustain everlasting life. In order to destroy sin the universe must be destroyed and naturally that means people also. So eventually all sin is destroyed and only the celestial creation will be left. At the end of this earthly existence we are told that all sin is cast into a celestial lake of fire of some sort of non consuming substance. That means that those who are justified to live in the kingdom of heaven shall have (by choice) shown their true love to the Creator. What does all of this mean? It means that Adam and Eve are presently living in a celestial new world and allowed back in the garden once again. But more than this is that Adam and Eve have access to that tree of life which had been taken from them in this earthly garden.

The purpose of all of this being that God gave them the opportunity to live forever, sin free and all by their own free will.
The children of the garden were educated, graduated, and grew up as citizens of God. They were given exactly what was taken from them and much more. They now have no need for enforcement of law because by choice they have love as their character.

You now see an entirely different picture than that of a mean old evil God Is not that a pattern for our children? We give them knowledge of sin by teaching them as well as punishing them for disobedience. They have choice (free will) to develop and grow as their character. They have grace (forgiveness) when they fail. They also overcome sin with love. They do die and will live forever free from sin. All of this is given to all of us by the love of the Father God. Is that wrong in your understanding?



posted on May, 22 2014 @ 03:39 PM
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a reply to: Seede

It had to stop right there or God's creation would not be in His perfect will.
It didn't "stop there".
The point was being made in Genesis that what the Elohim made was good.
I think what you need to read into it is that there is also things that they did not make.
That could be the two 'magical' trees that instead of The Lord being able to get rid of, had to get the people out of the garden and bar the way back in.

Adam and Eve were punished for the act of disobedience and expelled from the garden so that they could not then live forever with this unchecked.
What was the punishment, other than being ejected from the garden?
The serpent and the earth were the ones cursed.

The choice had to be given to obey or to disobey in order for a judgment to even exist. This is the reason that the command was given to not partake of this tree.
You are ignoring the facts as laid out in the story.
This is a fable-type description of where evil came from, with a tree that had fruit that if you ate it, you would die.
The Lord did not put it there in order to create a disobedience situation to create a definition of sin.
The Lord was warning the people of the dire consequences of eating from the tree because it really had these magical-type powers.
This is according to the story, and that is all that matters.
The story is not meant to be something to just notify us that there were these people, so that we can then figure out what they were "really" doing.
All the truth and reality for the purpose of telling the story in the first place is all contained in the words of the story, exactly as they are found in the text.

Now by punishment it may seem harsh to you and I but to God it is the best way to permit people the right to choose right from wrong. By giving the choice to people produces true character and love.
This is just ridiculous and has no biblical support whatsoever.
This is just your imagination at work.
You are saying that God is evil by personally causing, on purpose unimaginable suffering and pain and death, all for His own personal entertainment of toying with His creations.
Like I mentioned earlier, you are reversing the very lesson that the story is meant to convey, that The Lord was lovingly trying to spare the people from those things, but were ignored for reasons of apparently unhealthy aspirations to greatness.

He would now have to really go to work and that is the reason the earth was cursed. It was cursed to make it hard to live in comparison to the garden.
This is your own invention of an alternative story.
The actual story is that The Lord is notifying Adam of what the future is going to be like for him, as a result of His cursing the Earth.
The Earth itself was punished, and Adam's hard life was a side effect.
edit on 22-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2014 @ 04:19 PM
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a reply to: Seede

As far as death is concerned. Death was a necessity because sin was propagated throughout the world and the world could no longer be Good such as was before sin was propagated. Therefore if the world would last forever then sin would also last forever. As the world would be destroyed then sin would also be destroyed.
You are creating your own Bible out of your imaginings that are "propagated" after reading the Bible.
If no people existed, then arguably there would not be people sinning, but this is not a solution for there being evil or bad things, it just eliminates people to feel the affects of those things.

People by the trillions may have died with a perfect will and or a permissive will of God but at the end of this creation it will be shown the true character of the individual. Some will be justified by God and some will not be justified by God. Those who are justified will be allowed to live in the kingdom of heaven where sin (evil) is not present.
This word you are using, "justified", is here being applied in a different way than it is in the Bible.
You seem to be describing something like a final judgment, and certain verdicts are given out for different individuals.
That is one sense of the word but in the Bible, when you see the word justify, it means to bring a person into conformity to God's standard of righteousness.
"kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" are seemingly used interchangeably in the gospels.
It just means the community of God, where it was Israel, but is now the church.
It does not mean some sort of spiritual kingdom where we live in heaven.
You may be thinking of Romans 8:19,
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
(2011 NIV)
Paul was talking in a way that puts it in the future tense, but that is a prophetic way of putting it in order to point out the apocalyptic nature of the situation that now exists, here in the new age.
edit on 22-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2014 @ 07:02 PM
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a reply to: Seede

Sin has now been disallowed in this kingdom of heaven and here we are told that the trees and water of life are given to sustain everlasting life.
This is the idea, but it exists in the people, like Jesus said, "The kingdom is inside you".

In order to destroy sin the universe must be destroyed and naturally that means people also.
This is another case of you writing your own Bible.
You may be thinking of 2 Peter 3:10,
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
(2011 NIV)
If everything was destroyed, there would't be anything left to be "laid bare".
It means the end of an old age and the beginning of a new age.
What literally burnt was the temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.


edit on 22-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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