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Is the Judeo-Christian God evil?

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posted on May, 16 2014 @ 07:25 PM
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a reply to: Seede

it also is saying that God makes the statement so that all will understand that He did create evil and that it not just a happening or natural event as you and most people suppose.
It isn't stated that way.
It is written in verse, and has a poetic structure to it, where it is juxtaposing two different attributes.
It is not written as a lecture on where evil came from.

In fact some Jews of today still cling to that belief that there is no satanic evil force and that all people have been created with the evil inclination. God is reminding us that He created this evil and that it is for a purpose.
But that has absolutely nothing to do with the context, so you are only using your imagination, creating this whole big scenario that doesn't exist, it is purely delusional.
edit on 16-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 16 2014 @ 11:42 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
This original post will not be very lengthy, but that is because I would like to start a discussion on whether or not God is Evil. I will ask some questions give a brief response, answer those questions and then please list whatever you feel backs up your perspective on the text, and the character of God.



No, you just want to be stupid so you can have attention. I guess it is immaturity - that makes people say stupid things and looks at people for a response to their ignorance.

You can't tell a person who is in denial that they are in denial. Just stop it!



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 07:45 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
This original post will not be very lengthy, but that is because I would like to start a discussion on whether or not God is Evil. I will ask some questions give a brief response, answer those questions and then please list whatever you feel backs up your perspective on the text, and the character of God.

The first question I want to ask is can God murder someone? In my opinion, no because if God is real he is the giver of life, and therefore can justifiably take it at any point in time simply because when you die here you don't end you just change locations.

Is hell an eternity in hellfire? Hell is separation from the presence of God. If you don't want God in this life why would you want him in the next? Hell is a choice. I believe that the reference to hellfire are metaphors describing how it feels to be separated from God completely. This in my opinion is where I belong. I am by no means perfect, and by no means of myself should I be allowed to go anywhere else.

Can a good God let evil exist? Yes. If there is an objective good, then there must be an objective evil. Free will is good, I do not believe anyone can deny that, but if free will exist that means one can choose to do evil rather than good.

In my opinion, God is the only one that is good. Why do so many seem to think he is Evil, give me some of your opinions, and maybe we can discuss it.



Oh I was so looking forward to refuting everything you said with that heading
Oh well, what you said, my thoughts exactly
Well written and well thought out.
look forward to reading more



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 11:50 AM
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originally posted by: danielsil18
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Uzzah had the same free will as someone who has a gun pointed at him and is told "do as I say or I'll kill you".

If god truly gave people free will then he wouldn't be killing people for making the wrong decisions. What kind of free will is it when you are told that you can make any decision you want but if you make the wrong decisions you are going to be killed?

As for god: this god knew the future and knew he was going to kill Uzzah. Had god being loving and merciful he would have prevented it.

I would have prevented it so Uzzah can continue living his life. Makes me better than that god doesn't it.


You are really blowing God's command out of proportion. The Ark is God's. Something Holy. He has the right to tell people not to touch it, or they will be killed. Uzzah knew of God's command and out of irreverence(lack of respect) Uzzah touches the Ark. God is loving and merciful. But He is also just and not a liar. I don't see this as Evil in any respect. You keep saying God knew He was going to kill Uzzah, but your putting God into the system with that kind of linear thinking.

Time for God does not exist. God is not in this 4-dimensional simulation we see around us. Rather God is outside the simulation the simulator if you will. Someone outside this system has already done everything from beginning to end. So from his standpoint at creation Uzzah had already chose to disobey him and die. You keep saying God says do as I say our you die, and that is not free will. Lets look at the command honestly for a second. Do not touch this or you will die.....that does nothing to hinder someones free will. It is a warning. One may choose to touch it, but there is an effect for touching it. Death.

What is Death if God is real? Not the end, but only a change in location from here to there.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 11:54 AM
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originally posted by: greyer



You can't tell a person who is in denial that they are in denial. Just stop it!


This statement could apply to you as well. What do you say of God?



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 12:12 PM
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Repentance is an English word, so you would use the English definition. The Greek word metanoia means repentance, when translated into English. You have to watch out for the fallacy that figuring out the "real" meaning of a Greek word is to take it apart and then translate the root words that were compiled to form the "new" word, the one in question. When a new Greek word is "coined" (meaning: coming into common usage) it takes on a meaning of its own, regardless of the literal meanings of the parts that were used to make it.


Repentance is an English word, but that is not the actual word used in Scripture. Are you saying I am incorrect on the meaning of the word most frequently translated repent or repentance?



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 12:16 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60


Text It doesn't say that.

The reason that I formatted this in the following manner is that I do not get complete answers from you. All I ever get is hyperbole or parabolic or some other tom foolery answer from another of your book buying secularists. I thought we were discussing Biblical Theology?

I wrote the following -- “Everything that exists was created by God and John 1:3 verifies that nothing exists without God creating it.”

And you replied the following -- “It doesn't say that. It is saying that everything that was created was created through the Logos.”

Do you understand that you have just contradicted yourself? Do you understand what the Logos in this scripture actually means? Logos is Greek “The Word” – Meaning “The Word of God”, by which this universe was created. It was understood by Philo as divine reason, the mind of God manifested in and through the created universe. It is also linked to memra (also meaning “Word”) in Targum literature. It later became a central feature of Christian theology. Re read John 1:1-4 and try to understand the basic concepts of Christianity which you really do not have.

John 1:1-4 -- (1) In the beginning was the Word, (Logos) and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Logos is a Greek understanding of the Hebrew concept of God’s visibility which in the celestial realm is shown as being brought forth from God. As God is total spirit and unseen by creative understanding, “The Word”, which is begotten from God (not created), was with God and is God. How so? Because The Word is God’s visibility and is God Himself. Not a created entity as you suppose but in Likeness of which is God and image which is “The Word”. Moses teaches that the “likeness” is Spirit God Himself and the “Image” is His visibility which is “The Word”. Adam was created in two portions of likeness and image meaning spirit and flesh.

You stated “the Apostle John is not saying that everything was created through “The Word” but through the “Logos” you don’t understand what you have said. Both “Logos” and “Word” are the same unless you have a polytheistic belief and I am beginning to think that you may fit that category.

The reason I do believe that you do have a polytheistic belief is by what you have sated in the following. --

I wrote the following -- “Everything that exists was created by God and John 1:3 verifies that nothing exists without God creating it.”

You replied with the following --
“It doesn't say that.” “It does not exclude the idea that there could be things that were not created.”

I now understand you a little more than I did before. You have inferred that God did not create all things that exist contrary to what the Apostle John teaches. You lead me to believe that there are substances that God used to create that were already present before He created this universe.

Could you explain exactly what things existed that were not created and how these uncreated things came to be? That is exactly what you have implied. Are these other things that you imply existed before the universe was created simply left over things that He used? If they were left over pleases explain just where did they come from being that they were not created? Were these other things simply from another happening and God used them? Do you understand that you have implied that God did not create all things? What you propose contradicts the Apostle John and the basics of Christianit6y and Judaic philosophy of which we are discussing. Where do you find this concept in the scriptures? Would you detail this concept of yours for me?

I shall stay with this subject and not confuse this discussion with unanswered diatribe. One subject at a time is the best remedy.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 12:21 PM
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originally posted by: Aedaeum
a reply to: danielsil18

I completely agree with you, God could have prevented the Arc from falling over in the first place. However, God likes to make examples of people and circumstances. He died to prove to the others that touching the Arc, meant death. This is my opinion of course.


This is exactly why I believe God was angry with Uzzah. Uzzah felt that God could not protect that which was his and felt that his intervention was needed. My point was God was not evil for this action, and that it was justified.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 12:33 PM
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a reply to: Aedaeum

You believe that the character of God changes? I see a change in how he deals with us. I see us in a temporary covenant to a change of a permanent covenant. If you look at the Bible as a whole it is quite obvious that God never changes. As Chuck Missler says, "the New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed and the Old Testament is in the New Testament Revealed."



"The Old Testament does not just reveal God’s wrath, but also His great mercy and grace. It reveals the basic wickedness of man resulting from the fall of Adam. It foreshadows our need for a Redeemer. It prophesies of God stepping down from His throne into humanity, taking on the role of a servant. The New Testament is the realization of those prophecies. In the gospels we read firsthand accounts of God the Son becoming man and giving His life on the cross as a propitiation (reconciling us to God) for our sins. In the epistles we see that “the gospel” is the message that Christ died for our sins and rose the third day and that we are saved, not through works of our own righteousness, but by His work on the cross. "

www.equippingchristians.com...

The entire Bible is centered around Christ. That is where it all converges. God never changed his plan friend.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Are you saying I am incorrect on the meaning of the word most frequently translated repent or repentance?
A lot of people get it wrong, including people with Bible web sites.
A good, real lexicon will tell you that it means repentance.
People who don't like repentance, and think it is "works", will try to say it means something else, something trivial, not requiring you to actually do anything.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 12:50 PM
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a reply to: Seede

. . . tom foolery . . .
Do you ever read actual Bible commentaries?
I think maybe you don't have a good perspective on what is considered serious inquiry in academic biblical scholarship.
Or do you think that is all just so much "secularism"?

I thought we were discussing Biblical Theology?
Do you think that the Bible itself is a theological work?

Do you understand that you have just contradicted yourself?
No.

Do you understand what the Logos in this scripture actually means?
I think I do.

Logos is Greek “The Word” – Meaning “The Word of God”, by which this universe was created.
That is your interpretation.
Logos means, by the short definition, word.
But at the time that John was written, it was widely used with the philosophical connotation of an underlying principle that moves things toward a certain goal, like the primal mover.
The gospel writer here is taking the word and using it in a sense that would be relevant to Jewish understanding of the scriptures, where it mixes in with Genesis and Exodus, and the Prophets, like the earlier gospel of Mark, that starts out like Genesis, saying "In the beginning" but the beginning that starts with John the Baptist fulfilling prophecy.
When John says, light of the world, he means the giving of the Law and the Prophets, but it was not fully accepted.
That is the Logos in action, taking the shape of the light as the manifestation of God's will.

And it does not mention "the universe". Again, that is your interpretation.
It says, whatever was created, those things, were created through the Logos, which is John clarifying that the Logos is not some esoteric mystery that you have to be a philosopher to understand, and is in practical terms, something all Jews would recognize as a matter of course because of their religion.

Re read John 1:1-4 and try to understand the basic concepts of Christianity which you really do not have.
You have no idea how many thousands of times I have "reread" those verses.
I think what you mean is: according to Christian theology which interprets those verses to support their doctrines.
I already fully understood those "concepts" forty five years ago, and it has taken that long to disentangle myself from those philosophies.

Logos is a Greek understanding of the Hebrew concept of God’s visibility which in the celestial realm is shown as being brought forth from God.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Where do you get all of that?

Moses teaches that . . .
Is this a different Moses than the one in the Bible?

Adam was created in two portions of likeness and image meaning spirit and flesh.
There is no way to make that determination, so it has to be someone guessing, either you, or whoever you picked this up from.
edit on 17-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 01:30 PM
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a reply to: Seede

You stated “the Apostle John is not saying that everything was created through “The Word” but through the “Logos” you don’t understand what you have said. Both “Logos” and “Word” are the same unless you have a polytheistic belief and I am beginning to think that you may fit that category.
I think that you have this funny idea that because "pagans" use a word, that if I use that same word, that somehow makes me a "pagan", too.
That would go right along with you other funny idea, that if you don't think Moses wrote the Torah, or Job wrote the Book of Job, then that makes you "secular".
Let me add that I did not say that the Gospel of John was written by the Apostle John.
I think that the Apostle John wrote Revelation, and someone else, probably Mark, wrote John.

The reason I do believe that you do have a polytheistic belief is by what you have sated in the following. --
Because I disagree with your interpretation.

You have inferred that God did not create all things that exist contrary to what the Apostle John teaches.
I'm telling you what the verse does not say.
You are assuming that everything you think has to be true, whether it says that or not, so anyone who does not think exactly the same is some sort of heathen.

What you propose contradicts the Apostle John and the basics of Christianity and Judaic philosophy of which we are discussing.
It does not contradict the Bible.
It does contradict human philosophy even if it operates under the guise of religion.

Would you detail this concept of yours for me?
I already have, though I have to admit it may be difficult to understand.
What you are proposing is that God can be evil and create evil, since according to your strange thinking, God cannot be evil.
I would say that whoever this person or thing is that creates evil, by definition, cannot be God.
If evil exists in the universe, or the universe itself is evil, it is not because God made it.
The Bible never says that.
What it does say is that evil exists because it is unavoidable.
My personal explanation is that when the physical universe came into existence, there was set loose what would essentially be a Creation Machine, that was programmed ahead of time, but once it started, it could not be controlled or have the program changed until it had run its course, so you end up with a universe full of stuff, but it is toxic and full of pitfalls and a million ways to die.
edit on 17-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 07:56 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb

originally posted by: Aedaeum
a reply to: danielsil18

I completely agree with you, God could have prevented the Arc from falling over in the first place. However, God likes to make examples of people and circumstances. He died to prove to the others that touching the Arc, meant death. This is my opinion of course.


This is exactly why I believe God was angry with Uzzah. Uzzah felt that God could not protect that which was his and felt that his intervention was needed. My point was God was not evil for this action, and that it was justified.


I also don't believe God can be angry, regardless what it says in the bible. Anger is birthed from lack of understanding or a reaction to an act that was not expected. I'm sorry, but my Father knows the end from the beginning, has expected all outcomes and understands us down the the hairs on our heads. How can he be angry with a people he created? How can he not expect what they're going to do or say? Anger is irrational for a being who is outside the scope of our carnal understanding.

As far as your other post regarding God not changing, that is your opinion.... It is my opinion that He does, but only within the confines of the bible. My Father is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Now regarding your opinion that the bible is centered around Christ: The entire time Christ was here, he said don't look at me, look at the Father... I'm sorry, but I don't know of any "Christians" who give the Father his justified praise. Everyone continues to glorify the messenger, instead of the one who sent him.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 10:24 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60

From: Theological Lexicon of the New Testament, 2:472

"Metanoeo is literally "know after." To repent is first of all . . .

change of mind
a change of feelings
a change intentions
a change plans
to reflect (which implies a time later than the first knowledge)
to reconsider a first opinion
is a new form of thought or feeling after coming under the influence of Deception (apate), whence derive ignorance and error

What characterizes this evolution is that it is accompanied by regret, sorrow, or shame at the former opnion or attitude."

This defines to repent as a change of mind feelings intentions and plans. All of which I agree with, but the change of mind must always come first.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 10:38 PM
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a reply to: Aedaeum

I respect your opinion brother. I personally believe that the Messenger and the Father are the same entity only different parts of it. The Messenger is the visible part of the Spiritual Father. Where do you stand on the trinity?



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 11:02 PM
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Yeah, evil fellow.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 11:08 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Aedaeum

I respect your opinion brother. I personally believe that the Messenger and the Father are the same entity only different parts of it. The Messenger is the visible part of the Spiritual Father. Where do you stand on the trinity?


I don't believe that 3 is 1. I believe that there is a Father and a Son. I believe that the Spirit is not an entity, but a spiritual/energetic bridge of consciousness which allows us to communicate outside of this physical prison. I believe that it would be entirely unnecessary to have a son, if there was only one God. I believe there is actually a God family, where God would be the equivalent to our last names. I believe that we were created to have a chance to be grafted into that family.
edit on 17-5-2014 by Aedaeum because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 11:12 PM
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a reply to: jmdewey60




My personal explanation is that when the physical universe came into existence, there was set loose what would essentially be a Creation Machine, that was programmed ahead of time, but once it started, it could not be controlled or have the program changed until it had run its course, so you end up with a universe full of stuff, but it is toxic and full of pitfalls and a million ways to die.


That is basically the same as The Watchmaker Analogy.




I would say that whoever this person or thing is that creates evil, by definition, cannot be God. If evil exists in the universe, or the universe itself is evil, it is not because God made it. The Bible never says that. What it does say is that evil exists because it is unavoidable.


How do you have Good without Evil? God created us and blessed us with free will, but you see if there is an Objective standard for Good, then logically there must be an Objective Evil. For example, if you see a baby about to be washed away by the high tide rolling in. You are the only one around for miles. You have essentially two choices to pick it up(Save it) or to walk away(Let it die). Even in a world with only Good, the other choice still remains. If one creates Good, then it must also have created the potential for Evil, but only because it is not possible to have one Good choice and no opposite.

If you dont think Moses wrote the Torah then you disagree with Jesus:

John 7
19 “Did not Moses give you the Law, and yet none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”

Romans 10
24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not [n]understand the Scriptures or the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But


This post was part of a special Halloween Homage to Orson Wells.
Jumping out from behind the server and shouting BOO!
regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God [p]of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.

These are not the only locations the give this credit to Moses.



posted on May, 17 2014 @ 11:20 PM
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originally posted by: Aedaeum

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Aedaeum

I respect your opinion brother. I personally believe that the Messenger and the Father are the same entity only different parts of it. The Messenger is the visible part of the Spiritual Father. Where do you stand on the trinity?


I don't believe that 3 is 1. I believe that there is a Father and a Son. I believe that the Spirit is not an entity, but a spiritual/energetic bridge of consciousness which allows us to communicate outside of this physical prison. I believe that it would be entirely unnecessary to have a son, if there was only one God. I believe there is actually a God family, where God would be the equivalent to our last names. I believe that we were created to have a chance to be grafted into that family.


Want to show me How that is Biblical? That is closer to a Mormon belief rather than a Christian one.

Parts that back up the trinity John 1; John 10:30;

Colossians 1
15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x]by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y]is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church

I have plenty more, but I would like to see where you pulled that idea from.



posted on May, 18 2014 @ 12:05 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

If you dont think Moses wrote the Torah then you disagree with Jesus:
John 7
19 “Did not Moses give you the Law . . .”
Moses could have had a law, then someone wrote about it.
What I mean is the books, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
Jesus didn't say Moses wrote those books.

In the example from Mark 12:18-27, the Sadducees approached Jesus saying, "Moses wrote for us . . ."
In his reply, he downgrades the level of the involvement of Moses by saying, "have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush . . ."
So it goes from "Moses wrote", by the Sadducees,
to "in the book of Moses," by Jesus.

That is basically the same as The Watchmaker Analogy.
No, that is sort of back engineering creation to look for a creator.
What I mean is like the Big Bang, where things are dispersed in a violent sort of way, into the expanse of space, to fill it up.
My point is that there is a bit of chaos built into an event like that where you get unintended results.

How do you have Good without Evil?
I never said that there wasn't evil.
There is virtually unlimited evil everywhere.
My point is that it was not something that God intentionally created.
And beyond that, I absolve God from creating it intentionally or unintentionally.
I put the responsibility of it on ourselves, as participants in the creation of the physical universe itself.
We, as people, driven by our desire to live as physical beings, brought about the universe as a place to fulfill that desire.
edit on 18-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



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