The Book of Enoch Yay or Nay

a reply to: BO XIAN

It seems to me that IF God had wanted it in the Canon, it would be in.

I'm gonna count you as Nay then because with that point
you have me thinking about changing mine.

a reply to: adjensen

the Council of Nicaea did not have anything to do with selecting the books of the New Testament - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

They didn't?
I'm pretty sure that they were called by Constantine to agree on what to put into a canon they all agreed on. I know it was also about Arius's position (which should not have been shot down, IMO), but can you provide a source for this claim please?

To the OP author:
I decline to vote, as I have not read the Book of Enoch.

Yay all the way!

I think the fact that Jesus and friends seemed to endorse it, and the amount of interesting and inspired images and content it contains put it in good stead with the other Biblical texts. Also it contains a lot of stories that are already exist in the 'public consciousness' of popular (real-life?) religious thought. I also think it fits perfectly in the N.T.'s apocalypticism. I wonder if the books of the Bible were to be consolidated much earlier than they were, closer to the time of Jesus, when the belief in an immanent 2nd Coming would have been strongest, if more texts like Enoch would have made the cut.

Also, the idea that all (any?) of the other books in the Old or N.T. are 'historically accurate,' or that the claims of the named author's should be taken at face value, is absurd, and Enoch is no different in that respect. Should we boot the Gospel of John because we know it was not the "Beloved Disciple" himself who penned it?

On a side note, I'd also be interested in opinions on possible inclusion of the Apocalypse of Peter. I've always heard that was one of the most 'barely on the outside, looking in,' and credible of the Apocrypha.

a reply to: randyvs
Are not Machiventa Melchizedek (priest of salem) and Enoch the same spirit being? Id say yes to premise and as much as I like the bible (as poetry/flowery scary folklore) would accomplish an expansion of its own set in stone? ideas in this way: just have a new Epistle (including the book of Enoch) published including most of the NagHammadi dead sea scrolls Library information as the 'alternative' second Bible Book II version for the adventurous reader (Costume drama feature film to follow).

my thoughts:

Doesn't Jude also reference the Assumption of Moses? If I had to guess he was a convert from Gnosticism.

The story of the fallen grigori is compelling because it seems to fill in blanks in from the old testament of the fall of the rebellious angels. Another compelling fact about this apocryphal book is that the story not only is reconcilable (from what i've read) with certain omissions in the Old Testament/Hebrew scriptures like the story of the Nephilim. Are the grigori the 'songs of god' mentioned in the Book of Genesis? Another interesting fact is that it tells a similar story to that from the Book of Tobit: of Archangel Raphael binding of the wicked fallen in Egypt. In Enoch the evil spirit is called Semjaza, whereas in the Book of Tobit the demon is called Asmodeus. Not only does the non-canonical book of Enoch put forth a reasonable story to help us understand better, but it also clearly references prophecies from the canon of the Bible. The last interesting thing about the book of Enoch that I would like to point out is that the story is not only strikingly similar to the story of the fall, when Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but it is also very similar to the stories pagan mythologies of 'gods' stealing 'fire' from heaven and the dire consequences (prometheus & pandora come to mind). It also corroborates the story about a war in the heavens, which is mentioned several times throughout the Bible including in the Book of Daniel, and the Revelation of Jesus Christ, also called the Book of Apocalypse.

Ultimately we must heed the instruction of our Mother the Church who has been entrusted with the salvation of our souls. Christ said the gates of hades would not prevail against the Church, even unto the end of the age. He also said in the same breath that He had to go to the Father to ask that He send the Holy Spirit (the paraclete) to the Church to lead her into all truth. We believe that God in His Infinite power and wisdom is more than efficacious in this, for He is faithful and true, and sacred scripture and tradition has been passed on from generation to generation in spite of the opposition of the adversary. Christ commissioned His 11 Apostles to spread the Gospel to every nation, and every corner of the earth baptizing in the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and making disciples of all nations. Imagine that! That this 'ragtag' group of ordinary people, sinners, a doctor, fishermen, radicals, a Roman tax collector, a philosopher, and the others of the early Church, that they could accomplish this commission is the least likely of all things to have ever happened absent Divine Intervention, and this is a compelling point to ponder, and helps as to recognize her Divine nature and origin. Of course Christ is Faithful and True, and He did send out the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and to His people throughout time.

The book of enoch is interesting, but as Christ taught us we must be shrewd as serpents, and harmless as doves, because we are like sheep amongst the wolves. From the very beginnings of the Church She was met with hostility, persecution, and rejection, and even back to the times of the prophets, the people of God have always faced opposition from those "of this world." This should come as no surprise because Christ taught us that the Spirit He gives us is in opposition to the spirit of the world, which is the spirit of flesh, under the curse of sin and death. He described the Church like a City on a Hill, and a Light in the darkness of the world. This is true because Jesus is the Light of the world!

The question of whether the Book of Enoch is canonical is a question that can only truly be answered by the authority of His Church acting according the sacred traditions, and the sacred scriptures that have been handed on to us from Christ even. That the book of enoch is not canonical is something I easily accept. The Church in Her wisdom has discouraged the reading of many of these apocryphal texts to protect us against heresy and dangerous ideas. Again, from the very beginning the Church encountered imposters, and it was the sacred duty of the Apostles, and their successors even to the present, to protect His flock from wolves, false teachers, and false doctrine. It is very easy to get the wrong idea when reading these gnostic texts, for sometimes these heresies are so very subtle, yet have the most profound of conclusions that could endanger our salvation.

Before trying to go beyond the canon of the Bible why don't we start by trying to understand what we believe is the inspired word of God, and that which is necessary to better understand Gods plan for the salvation of souls through Jesus Christ His Beloved and only begotten Son, the Perfect man & God Incarnate, for He is the Atoning Sacrifice, the Paschal Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

We would do well to read and learn about His teachings and the story about His ministry. What makes Him so special? What makes Jesus Christ different from other religious figureheads and founders? Perhaps it would be better to ask questions about precisely how the Bible came to exist at all, and what criteria was used in determining the orthodoxy and catholicity of the many scrolls and documents that were considered. I have read the book many times, and find it intriguing and edifying, but when I read it I understood that this book was no more the word of God than Shakespeare's Midsummer Night Dream.

Grace and Peace to my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. In these difficult times let us endure patiently, and pray for one another in love. Prayers especially for our brothers and sisters in the world who are persecuted to this day. He said He would return, and He is Faithful and True!

originally posted by: CirqueDeTruth

I mean spinning wheels coming down from the sky, with non human creatures visiting man (Enoch), was the inspiration of John Dee & Edward Kerry! Which led to the creation, in the late 1500's, of Enochian magic.... which today heavily influences High Ritual Magic used in many different pagan sects today.


CdT

I think you may be confusing Enoch with Ezekiel.

a reply to: benrl

This is a good point I never thought about before.

It could be asked, What scroll is there to be hidden to the end times?

Depending on what denomination or sect you ask, there are numerous explanations, many include the future revelation of the NT (yet its clearly says, End of time).

That would be one of the Theological questions people should consider, what does that verse reference.

Could it include books like Enoch?

Maybe Daniel wrote the book of Enoch in the same manner that Moses wrote the book of Job. The book of Job has nothing to do with the Israelite saga. The book stands out as a separate work from another culture. Either Moses wrote it through inspiration or it came from Ur through Abraham, or something.

The reason I say that Daniel may have been the writer of Enoch comes from the naming of angels in both works. All earlier Old Testament writings never once mentioned an angel by name. It wasn’t until Daniel and Ezekiel when these names appeared.

Daniel mentions two good angels by name for the first time. They are Gabriel and Michael. The book of Enoch mentions five good angels by name. They are Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Suryal and Uriel. Either Daniel picked up the names Gabriel and Michael from Enoch or he in fact wrote Enoch. Another dead giveaway relating Daniel to Enoch is the use of the term, “Ancient of Days”. Those two books are the only ones to mention God in that way.

Daniel 7:13-14
Enoch LVIII [sect X] verse 1 (translation by Richard Laurence 1883)

You also might be interested in this thread I started a few months back.

The book of Enoch was the source of the biblical angelic names Michael and Gabriel

I vote Yay.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Well I was inclusive with that story, as Enoch expands upon what it was Ezekiel experienced. IMO anyways.



CdT

a reply to: lostinspace

All earlier Old Testament writings never once mentioned an angel by name.

Leviticus mentions Azazel, whom Enoch also identifies as a fallen angel.

And Aaron shall place lots upon the two he goats: one lot "For the Lord," and the other lot, "For Azazel."

Leviticus 16:8

originally posted by: CirqueDeTruth
a reply to: DeadSeraph

Well I was inclusive with that story, as Enoch expands upon what it was Ezekiel experienced. IMO anyways.

CdT

Ezekiel is said to have lived much later on in history than Enoch. According to the bible, Enoch was Noah's great grandfather, so he was not all that far removed from Adam, Where as Ezekiel is said to have lived around 600 bc. So I'm not sure if that theory makes sense. The content of the two books seems quite different as well (to me at least). Enoch is more so detailing the events of the nephilim and the union of fallen angels with women. Ezekiel doesn't really talk about those issues and focuses more on the events of his time as well as prophecies for the future concerning Israel.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: adjensen

the Council of Nicaea did not have anything to do with selecting the books of the New Testament - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

They didn't?
I'm pretty sure that they were called by Constantine to agree on what to put into a canon they all agreed on. I know it was also about Arius's position (which should not have been shot down, IMO), but can you provide a source for this claim please?

To the OP author:
I decline to vote, as I have not read the Book of Enoch.

Since it was Adjensen who inspired my thread I think its only appropriate to offer it....

Reconciling Arius...

Council of Laodicea was where the first official canon of the bible was established...

reluctant-messenger.com...

great topic star+flag

a reply to: mrphilosophias

Thanks

I'm just now getting to where I can spend some time on your
posts amigo. I've been salivating and hope I can offer something
when I'm done.

Thank you for the kind word, but I assure you the praise belongs to the God of my salvation through Jesus Christ the Lord! I can only hope the LORD will grant me wisdom from Him that I might share with you the goodness of the LORD; that I not be ashamed in this stewardship.

Who are we that Almighty God, the Creator of all things would care to have an abiding relationship with us? His Love is so much more profound than I can even express or conceive. In His abundant Love and kindness created us for friendship with Him, and bestowed upon us great gifts more precious than we can know. This alone is worthy of endless thanks and praise!

Yet though He is the LORD God of Heaven and Earth, All-Good, All-Mighty, Ever-living and Supreme, He did not abandon us as a people even after we had disobeyed Him. Though we became as a people cursed due to our transgression against God, as God has warned, an inevitability of His Deity, and though this alone put us at enmity with Him, He did not abandon us in frustration, or utterly destroy us from memory in wrath, but instead began the revealing of His perfect plan for redemption and restoration, ultimately through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, Who is the Word of God, the only begotten Son of God, yet born unsullied and without blemish, conceived of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit. Lest we be confused, this Jesus we speak of is the visible Image of the invisible God, and verily God-Incarnate!

Consider this thought for some time:

Philippians 2
3 Let nothing be done through contention, neither by vain glory: but in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves:

4 Each one not considering the things that are his own, but those that are other men's.

5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names:

10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

Yet not only did He come down from Heaven to dwell amongst His rebellious children, to comfort, heal, and teach them; to deliver them from the curse of sin and death; but that He did this knowing very well the suffering, pain, and suffering it would mean to Him, and yet He still chose to do so. Why? Would you believe it, this Holy, Sovereign, and Supreme God did it because He loves us that much? It not that we loved Him, for by our sin we are enemies of God, but because He created us, and Loves us, for God is Love! Now imagine His Passion and death. Jesus is the source of all life, for He is the Life. Consider His descent into the place of the dead. Jesus is the Light of the world and was forsaken to the darkness of the tomb. It is delightful to imagine what it would be like: the glorious bursting forth of His Light into Hades. He did this all because He loves YOU, and because He desires friendship with you, communion with Him that leadeth to eternal life. Though He is the Son of God, Perfect and Holy, Jesus became as a criminal, as a rebellious sinful man of the worst sort though He was not, to take upon Himself the just punishments of the Father for our sins that the requirements of the law be fulfilled. It was an exchange of the just for the unjust from the bondage of sin, to free us from the devils tethers, that we could become children of God! Do you believe?

God is Holy, Just and Mighty in executing judgement, with none who could bear up under His Perfect judgements. We have seen glimpses of this facet of Gods' goodness throughout the Old Testament scriptures, He is fierce and He is furious in His righteous indignation. We also find glimpses of His patience, mercy, generosity, love and kindness, and faithfulness towards His friends, those who fear Him, and follow His commands.

It was not until God revealed Himself to mankind in His Son Jesus the Christ-King prophesied from long ago, that we can really begin to truly appreciate many aspects of Gods' awesomeness. Two points that stand out: the horror of the sin of man and why the law demands death for it, why the law is perfect, just, and good, and in stark contrast to this, the even greater love God has for us In Christ Jesus. This love God has shown to men by sending His son to suffer and die for them, is a fiery passion unlike anything know from the natural order of things. Yet it is precisely this love that God has shown to us that He commands first we must receive from His endless fount, then to Him, and then to reciprocate His love to each other.

We can not please God apart from Christ Jesus. Neither can we love. For Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of all that is good and perfect, holy and true. This definition couldn't possibly sufficiently render what is due, for Gods' ways are not our ways, and His thoughts not out thoughts, His ways are as far above our ways as the highest Heaven is above the earth. I encourage you to search out the Word, to taste and see, for our God is a living God and His Word is Powerful, Alive, and active! Come as you are and receive His forgiveness, His Love. Taste and see that the LORD is Good!

John 15
6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.

7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love.

10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love.

11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled.

12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.

15 I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

Have you not heard, or have you not understood the goodness of the LORD, His power and love, and His plan for your salvation? If we die to sin with Him, in baptism and sacrament, spirit and truth, the record containing our transgressions is destroyed; it is nailed to the Cross! If we die with Him have confidence in this blessed hope and promise, that we will rise in Him!
What do you have to lose?

Like Hip Hop?

a reply to: mrphilosophias

Who are we that Almighty God, the Creator of all things would care to have an abiding relationship with us? His Love is so much more profound than I can even express or conceive. In His abundant Love and kindness created us for friendship with Him, and bestowed upon us great gifts more precious than we can know. This alone is worthy of endless thanks and praise!

All I can say is I feel exactly the same way and would
even be thrilled, to find out someday, that I actually
made him smile just once in this life. We have the same
vision and I 've written such similar ideas here many times.

You have me so close to changing my vote, but that would
be wishy washy.

a reply to: randyvs

I have to say no. The Father would not allow his book to be anything other than what it is. To think otherwise is just silly. I mean seriously, you think for a second he would let his book, his word, be anything other than what he wanted it to be. I think not.

Also, you have it wrong. Jesus did not quote anyone.... He is the son of god and his words are his and the father's. Enoch if anything was reciting the words given to him, not the other way around. Jesus was there in heaven with the father, he has always been there, even before he became man in order to break the chains of the law on us and provide us salvation through grace and his sacrifice.

I think you have to be very careful reading the other writings. They can draw your mind and heart away from the truth. Like now the new thing is saying Jesus was married.

Like some other links trying to say it was aliens.... No God is not an alien. You will see aliens in the very near future, they are the fallen.

Personally, I don't think we have long to wait. I believe his return will be soon.

The Bot

a reply to: dlbott

I have to say no. The Father would not allow his book to be anything other than what it is. To think otherwise is just silly. I mean seriously, you think for a second he would let his book, his word, be anything other than what he wanted it to be. I think not.

Alright that's it! I'm changing my vote.

I found out about the book of Enoch about 3 or 4 years ago, while my wife was attending Criswell College (small seminary in Dallas). In one of her classes they talked briefly about apocryphal works... Maybe OT Survey? Anywho, I haven't read all of it, but what I have read does not contradict the Bible in any way. All it does is add to what is in canonized Scripture. It provides details about the whole Nephilim thing, which is awesome because that has fascinated me since i was a kid. Also, as benrl mentioned, it references/portrays/alludes to the Messiah as being very Jesus-like, which only adds to its credibility for me.

For me, personally, I give it a YAY!
... But I don't think it should be canonized, merely due to the fact that the majority of believers likely cannot handle the information in the book. Many are led astray by the mere thought or prospect of secret knowledge/'magic', and could end up going the wrong direction/worshipping the created angels or watchers, like John Dee and Edward Kelley did. And later, infamously, Aleister Crowley.

Also, the book of Enoch does not contain any essential information regarding salvation that is not already provided in canonized scripture.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I decline to vote, as I have not read the Book of Enoch.

Thirty lashes!

It's actually an easy read to put under your belt.

Yay 18

Nay 8

And as author I have the luxery of a recast.

Yay 17

Nay 9

originally posted by: adjensen
a reply to: Akragon

Can we blame Dan Brown, or is it just ignorance?

It's a combination. Most people don't know early church history well enough to understand the process of canonicity, and then you have Brown and his ilk proposing that it happened at Nicaea (even though we know that it did not,) so the idea gets passed around like a… well, like a bad idea, lol.

Dan Brown re told/mistold the history in such away it made people who had doubts of the canon just automatically argue the authenticity of it all.

I'm pretty sure the council of Nicaea just sent down he fundamental creed of Christianity and defined alot of things which didn't have solid ground, which is where dan brown pitched in and changed history for afew.

The canon of the Bible was established in the council of Trent I believe (1500's).

As for the book of Enoch well.. it's exactly what you said, Apocrypha, perhaps the reason it's not in the Bible is that no full book of Enoch still exists, we only recently found the best surviving copies in the Qumran (dead sea scrolls)
which is hotly debated among many (here for example )

p.s I vote Yay