The Book of Enoch Yay or Nay

a reply to: Akragon

I'm sure you know better than that AK. If only by the
calluses you've inflicted personally, I'm sure you do.

Whah!

Now gimme a Yah or Nay sport?

a reply to: randyvs

Alrighty...

IF the books of the torah have any place within the bible Enoch shouldn't be an issue...

So yay...

the only reason it was excluded is because of the controversial nature of the book...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: randyvs

Alrighty...

IF the books of the torah have any place within the bible Enoch shouldn't be an issue...

So yay...

the only reason it was excluded is because of the controversial nature of the book...

I'm astonished ! And you aren't the first surprise! It really
is hard to predict how someone will vote on this subject.
Very interesting.

I've read Enoch, as well as other non-canonical works.

I would say this, Enoch raises some very interesting points.

Though theologically speaking, the value of those points are debatable, Does it add to the overall narrative?

Perhaps people should read it on their own to make that choice.

Some things of note in Enoch, the List of the Angels that fell, Why they chose to fell, WHAT they gave to man (knowledge of things like Metallurgy) and what that Caused to happen.

It is a Detailed pre-flood accounting that the OT just glosses over,

IT should be noted that the BIBLE itself suggest there are other "holy" scriptures outside of whats there.

Daniel 12:4

But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

It could be asked, What scroll is there to be hidden to the end times?

Depending on what denomination or sect you ask, there are numerous explanations, many include the future revelation of the NT (yet its clearly says, End of time).

That would be one of the Theological questions people should consider, what does that verse reference.

Could it include books like Enoch?

a reply to: benrl

Always good to see benri interested in one of my
threads. And as far back as Daniel was in the history of
this world? Wouldn't you say almost certainly, that passage
must be referring to such books?

And come-on and cast your reasoning? I promise it wont hurt..

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: benrl

Always good to see benri interested in one of my
threads. And as far back as Daniel was in the history of
this world? Wouldn't you say almost certainly, that passage
must be referring to such books?

And come-on and cast your reasoning? I promise it wont hurt..

Depends on your view of Eschatology, and if spiritual inspiration of cannon is closed (which doesn't negate the possibility of "hidden" or "lost" Scripture).

Also depends on your world view.

If its myth, than Surely Enoch has a place in the historical viewing of "biblical" text, if anything as it is supposedly referenced in the Bible indirectly through quotation.

Even among believers the answer will fall on several different lines of thinking,

Cannon being sealed or Complete, will get you a NO.


Personally, I am a "Believer" who doesn't really fall along a Sect or denomination, so my reasoning does not stand for any "group" Only my own, though I fall in line with some orthodoxy on some issues.

My view of faith is one that believes each person has a responsibility to find and understand it, not take someone elses word on the matter (the bible supports this thought).

Enoch, on the whole, does not contradict, and most often tends to point toward whats already in the bible.

ALSO, Enoch's jewish origins raises some questions, as it was considered valid for some time, Funny enough, its the References to the Messiah in Enoch that caused problems.

I would argue the Messiah in Enoch (OT Jewish scripture) was more inline with NT Christ, than OT views on Messiah. Many of the questioning of illegitimacy stem from that point in JEWISH history, when they Decided it portrayed the Messiah in a way that was not in line with OT Judaism.

MY stance on Enoch, is the same as other non-biblical theological text, it is good to have more knowledge, its up to the individual to decide what to do with that knowledge.

As the book I claim as my holy book says,

"But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good"

Its not hard to determine of something is in line with scripture, its the duty of every Faithful Christian to test what they are told.

MOST do not.

Most, eat what their Clergy serves.

I don't have a dog in this fight. But in support of the thread, as I'm enjoying the read, I thought I'd chime in.

I'd vote Nay, and surprisingly so I guess, being Pagan.

But that's just the thing. The Apocrypha is part of the mystery teachings, touching upon things that the bible frowns upon and instructs their followers to stay away from.

I mean spinning wheels coming down from the sky, with non human creatures visiting man (Enoch), was the inspiration of John Dee & Edward Kerry! Which led to the creation, in the late 1500's, of Enochian magic.... which today heavily influences High Ritual Magic used in many different pagan sects today.

I mean, it's obvious - Nay. This stuff doesn't belong to Christianity, because their texts teach and frown upon this sort of exploration in spirituality and the unseen. It's not for the faint of heart, because when you look into that looking glass, part the veil and gaze out into the abyss - it stares back at you.

Then you start talking about non-human beings, dreams, strange experiences and consciousness, and people look at you like your cah - ray - zee!



CdT

a reply to: CirqueDeTruth

Altho I frown on your referrence to " Fight". I am absolutely
thrilled by your most interesting post.

Gawd that was awesome!

And you cast a vote on top it.



The lead for yays widens.

Yay 14

Nay 6

Not even what I would've predicted at any point.

a reply to: CirqueDeTruth

I would argue that all life force practicers use the same source, but most neglect to recognize where their power comes from. He is a double edged sword and is not to be 'used'. Jesus being a man of miracles, was a man who knew his life force all too good. Though I disbelieve that he practiced the way of the sorcerer/alchemist, stirring pots of potions and such. Then again I would bet he knew all that also, but stayed away from it.

So from my perspective, that doesn't render those who believe, see and hear the true word of Christ illegible to practice what is known as magic.

randyvs, no derailment nor disrespect meant to the thread topic.

a reply to: Sump3

I said that I was Pagan...

Not a sorcerer or alchemist. I don't create potions like heal disease or restore magicka... lol. Life isn't a video game. Nor do I cast spells, unless meditating for peace and balance and the good will of others with a candle and incense is sorcery. I follow traditions, not rituals - not that I've not done ritual in my youth, but I've children now. Best to leave the curtains drawn. *giggles*

I believe in a universal approach to the source as you call it, and do not argue that it is of everything and we all exist within it. That all things permeate from it. I look at this as God, as likely do you.

I was just illustrating, in my post, how one of these books, particularly "The Book of Enoch" spawned, created - helped to formulate what constitutes part of the occult today. I'd best not mention how it inspired the evilest man in the world to create a ritual, or show his illustration of meeting with one of the "Watchers" , which subsequently inspired Nazi's in their research into the paranormal and ever since... flying saucers are EVERYWHERE.

Inter-connectedness.

Blessed Be,
Cirque

nice quotes, OP--that was cool!

I was on the fence on this, because the 1599 Geneva Bible does not seem supportive of the idea that angels can mate with humans in the notes (of the original translators).

And it is possible that Godly men mated with Godless (pagan/spirit worshippers/blood sacrificers) and the genes expressed into giants and other evil over time…

BUT, there seems to be a lot of evidence in support of the Book of Enoch and genetic manipulation, even as we are seeing today with GMOs and alleged "alien" hybrid programs…
perhaps one reason God caused the creation here to fall so far was to prevent a repeat of angels mating w women (all the animals were more diverse and HUGE pre-flood; more oxygen and electromagnetism: demons appear to be electro-plasma other-dimensional beings who use blood sacrificed energy to manifest here (blood is electro-static). One reason for the dangers of our society right now: we are acidifying our bodies with poisons and metal particulates in the foods and airs which could be conducting an increase in demons in people. Probably part of the "plan," imo.

anyway, for now I am YAY.

this guy, tho eccentric, connects some interesting dots:

YT: Nephilim: TRUE STORY of Satan, Fallen Angels, Giants, Aliens, Hybrids, Elongated Skulls & Nephilim
youtu.be...

a reply to: CirqueDeTruth

good point on the "enochian magik" angle. definitely one reason to have doubts about its origins, as it could easily be like theosophyblavatskibailey new age/gnostic "downloaded" book from fallen angels redux…

on the other hand, satan often seems to counterfeits the creation here…as w the use of sacred geometry in occult, but that doesn't mean God did not create the original information they are manipulating… we only have to cut an apple in half or look at a nature to see this same geometry/numerology…

a reply to: CirqueDeTruth

May the first bless you also.

I saw that you wrote Pagan, to get my point through I wanted to use the other word (for it's emphasis on the whole). I am also quite thin with titles and categorizing things. It's all the same to me, black and white, all the other opposites and their double-'yet'-quadrupleness nature (good +, bad +, good -, bad -(good man, bad man, good woman, bad woman etc.))

I support you're belief and see you are strong in it.

Yes, those of wickedness in heart can use the truth and twist it for their short held 'advantage/pleasure via what you described with the nazis and Crowley'.

Doesn't matter one bit whether or not its true...to some of us.

Anyways, all of the events of this "Book" were completed long, long ago, albeit with results not anticipated.

What a horrible shock in store for everyone who looks outside of themselves to find "truth".

And to find God, what worse way than to look to others, others who have no idea, and never did.

originally posted by: randyvs

originally posted by: TheJourney
The OP describes apocryphal texts as being sometimes historically accurate, as if contrasting that with the 'infallible' bible...that's where I was lost...

Alright TJ, I certainly tried not to lose anyone. Any suggestions
on how I might of put an OP together that wouldn't have lost
you? Considering my own perspective of course. I mean how
can it be helped and why post a reply saying why I lost you?

Does my perspective, cause you to lose interest in the subject
entirely? I would think that clicking in the first place, shows
you have interest. Or did you simple mindedly just click to make
me feel stupid? Which is a task that takes far more effort, than
your weak little display, here above.

I do have an interest in aprocryphal texts, and how they were so violently shut down in an attempt to establish a central authority that would be the 'only legitimate' form of the religion. The LEAST interesting approach to the subject, in my eyes, is whether or not an extra-biblical text is in keeping with the 'infallible word of God,' in reference to the bible. I found it odd that someone would use 'historically inaccurate' to characterize apocryphal texts while simultaneously calling the bible the 'infallible word of God.'

a reply to: TheJourney



More than fair enough TJ, I trust you understand
why asked about your motives in such a way.
And while I would contest that I didn't use such a term
as "I.W.O.G." it would be pointless as per that is my
ultimate view. Whether or not it insults you or me or
anyone else.

But why don't you give me a yay or nay ? Please?

originally posted by: Verum1quaere
nice quotes, OP--that was cool!

I was on the fence on this, because the 1599 Geneva Bible does not seem supportive of the idea that angels can mate with humans in the notes (of the original translators).

And it is possible that Godly men mated with Godless (pagan/spirit worshippers/blood sacrificers) and the genes expressed into giants and other evil over time…

BUT, there seems to be a lot of evidence in support of the Book of Enoch and genetic manipulation, even as we are seeing today with GMOs and alleged "alien" hybrid programs…
perhaps one reason God caused the creation here to fall so far was to prevent a repeat of angels mating w women (all the animals were more diverse and HUGE pre-flood; more oxygen and electromagnetism: demons appear to be electro-plasma other-dimensional beings who use blood sacrificed energy to manifest here (blood is electro-static). One reason for the dangers of our society right now: we are acidifying our bodies with poisons and metal particulates in the foods and airs which could be conducting an increase in demons in people. Probably part of the "plan," imo.

anyway, for now I am YAY.

this guy, tho eccentric, connects some interesting dots:

YT: Nephilim: TRUE STORY of Satan, Fallen Angels, Giants, Aliens, Hybrids, Elongated Skulls & Nephilim
youtu.be...

In my view another outstanding post. And I
don't even have to click your link to know exactly
what video that is.

a reply to: Verum1quaere

I believe you're right in your assumptions through experiences of my own and knowledge of the mainframe of this plane of existence through knowledge and wisdom.

Anyone wish to change the score on the voting?

Going once.

a reply to: randyvs

I think I can say that I'm 98% on board for including the Book of Enoch in what I would call Holy Spirit inspired writings . . . though I'm still comfortable with it being outside the Canon.

It seems to me that IF God had wanted it in the Canon, it would be in.