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Masonry Unmasked

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posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 01:59 AM
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freemasonry.bcy.ca...

This is a great site for the researcher of Freemasonry. The work done here is second to none.

Example:

The name Lucifer was applied to Satan by St. Jerome and later to the demon of sinful pride by Milton in Paradise Lost. Lucifer is the title and principal character of the epic poem by the Dutch playwright, Vondel (who uses Lucifer in lieu of Satan), and a principal character in the mystery play by Imre Madach, "The Tragedy of Man". Blake pictured Lucifer in his illustrations to Dante. George Meredith's sonnet Lucifer in Starlight addresses the "fiend" as Prince Lucifer. To Spenser in An Hymne of Heavenly Love, Lucifer is "the brightest angel, even the Child of Light." In Ovid's Metamorphosis, Lucifer is the morning star and father of Ceyx. He is described as riding a white horse (clarus equo, book XV.189) and his face is characterized by a bright gladness (see XI.270 ff. Lucifero genitore satus patriumque nitorem ore ferens Ceyx). Also see Books II.115 and 723, IV.629,665.




posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by Bondi

Religions were used to teach morals, to show the world will be a better place if we were just nice to each other



Yeah, Ill buy that there are a lot of good points in religion, they teach you how to be a door matt with a smile on your face basically. Which is a good thing. I'm sure I have used wisdom from the Bible many times in my daily life. My favorite writings are probably Proverbs

When I said the religions could be scrapped that really wouldn't be a good idea as it gives thousands of people meaning and purpose in thier lives, but if I can't take to the bank whats said in the Bible about Lucifer being the devil because of an error. How does an error creep into the infallable word of God? If thats an error there must be thousands. How do I know the whole book is not fiction? My church denomination teaches in its tenents of faith that the Bible is the infallible word of God.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by df1


1) Do you have a favorable opinion of Masonry?


Absolutely yes.




2) Are you still going to petition to join Masonry?


Yes my petition is in the hands of a travelling man now.



3) So are you saying that you buy into the position often cited by anti-masons of a society within a society, where the inner 5% know the truth and the remainding outer are deceived

I will leave it at three questions just for the sake of the numeric symbology
.


Thats a tuff one not being a Mason yet. Albert Pike said the beginners are intentionally mislead. And if they are there must be a good reason for it.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by TgSoe
Yeah, Ill buy that there are a lot of good points in religion, they teach you how to be a door matt with a smile on your face basically.


There is nothing in any religous book that states you have to let people walk over you. there is nothing to say that you cannot defend yourself with the same force in which you are being attacked.


My favorite writings are probably Proverbs


Personally I like anything written so i can make my own judgement. There is no true definition of anything in the bible. It all has a different meaning to each and everyone. Saying that there are many that accept a translation of meaning given to them, and never actually think of it themselves.


When I said the religions could be scrapped that really wouldn't be a good idea as it gives thousands of people meaning and purpose in thier lives,


It's not the name that people should have faith in, it's the teachings. I would not recommend getting rid just stop calling any particular religion by a name.


but if I can't take to the bank whats said in the Bible about Lucifer being the devil because of an error. How does an error creep into the infallable word of God?


IMO it's just a book. A very good book and one many could do well by reading it.

I have never been told the bible is the infallable word of god, and would never believe anyone who told me it was. For a start I was taught the god was only involved in the first 5 books, with moses. Not sure of the exact story but think it is something like god dictated to moses.


If thats an error there must be thousands. How do I know the whole book is not fiction?


Depending on how you read the bible and take it's points will depend on the number of errors counted and of course who's doing the counting. I have heard mention of the detailing of animals that were not present on that continent at that time, dates not possible, the life span of individuals are impossible etc etc. Personally I feel the bible is a book of fables, moral guiding stories used to teach the iliterate the means to a better life. I don't believe that Jesus made a blind man see, or walked on water in the way people read it today, I believe that are analogies, a story with added wow factor to make it rememberable. My opinion is my opinin and of course and don't care to discorse the right and wrong of it with anyone.


My church denomination teaches in its tenents of faith that the Bible is the infallible word of God.


Think I covered this one earlier in the post.

I think you may have a similar problem to myself. I rely too much on logic, and what I can see and comprehend. If there is one error in the bible then the whole thing can be incorrect, the bible we read today is a book of man only. Written, translated, re-written, re-translated time after time. I do not believe it is anywhere near the original. The original itself was written by a man. Human error springs to mind, try copy typing say 10 pages of a book, without thinking you will make slight alterations that make it to you gramatically correct, or read better.



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 06:22 AM
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Just to add, if the bible was fact it would be impossible to have more than one version



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by Bondi
IMO it's just a book. A very good book and one many could do well by reading it.


Why would you say it is only a book? Do they not furnish the lodge with the Volume of Sacred Law? Is not the VSL considered one of the three great lights of masonry?

Masons believe in a Supreme Being, and that He has revealed his will toward man do they not? And is not that revelation in the bible, or whatever VSL the mason follows?

I think your not giving the bible credit for being divinely inspired. Do not masons see the Torah, Koran as divinenly inspired as well? Why such a prominant place in the center of the lodge if it is only a book!



posted on Dec, 8 2004 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor

Why would you say it is only a book? Do they not furnish the lodge with the Volume of Sacred Law? Is not the VSL considered one of the three great lights of masonry?

Masons believe in a Supreme Being, and that He has revealed his will toward man do they not? And is not that revelation in the bible, or whatever VSL the mason follows?

I think your not giving the bible credit for being divinely inspired. Do not masons see the Torah, Koran as divinenly inspired as well? Why such a prominant place in the center of the lodge if it is only a book!


In Masonry, the Bible is considered a symbol of the Divine Will. Whether or not the individual Mason considers the Bible the literal Divine Will depends on his personal religious beliefs.

Masons do not necessarily see the Bible, or Torah, or Qu'ran as being divinely inspired. For example, the Jewish Mason consideres only the Torah divine; the Christian Mason sees both the Old and New Testaments as divine; the Muslim Mason sees all of them plus the Qu'ran as divine; and the Deist Mason thinks they're all mythology, and doesn't consider any of them divine.

[edit on 8-12-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by TgSoe

Yeah, Ill buy that there are a lot of good points in religion, they teach you how to be a door matt with a smile on your face basically.



Religion teaches nothing of the sort. It's down to you personally how you take religion and what you do with it. The individual is responsible for his faith.
The fact that people become "door mats" does not make religion wrong. The people themselves are in the wrong for blindly following instead of learning and trying to grow through the religion.
If you can't play football, you can't place the blame on the football itself.

Religion is choice. Nearly all of the sacred texts stress the importance of freewill. If a follower refuses to recognise that he has the freewill to examine the religion, it his his ignorance that causes the problem.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Why would you say it is only a book? Do they not furnish the lodge with the Volume of Sacred Law? Is not the VSL considered one of the three great lights of masonry?


To me, the Bible is just a book, written by man telling stories of how to live a better life, guided by his creator but not dictated by. The VSL does not have to be a bible, it can be any book of religion ie the Koran. It would depend on the religous faith of the initiate. To me any of the "religous bible" could be sat in the lodge, they all same the same to me. I don't mean literally, but they all convey the same message type.


Masons believe in a Supreme Being, and that He has revealed his will toward man do they not?


Freemasonry requires a belief in a supreme being, but it doesn't say which one. What you class as the supreme being may not be what another classes it as. The revealing bit I am unsure as to what you are referring too.


And is not that revelation in the bible, or whatever VSL the mason follows?


I don't remember the bible or any other book of religion word for word so I again am not sure what you are referring to.


I think your not giving the bible credit for being divinely inspired.


I did not say it wasn't inspired, I just think it was written by a man, and by man alone, no dictation. I am of the opinion, and again this is my own opinion, that people followed religion long before written words, and followed ritual habits long before the spoken word. They saw good come from certain acts and bad from others. Once literacy was introduced people decided to document these things and show a moral life is blessed with goodness and an immoral life is condemed to misery.

I do not wish to take away anyone's faith, but to me you will not find him in a book of man, and you cannot be taught of him by man. It is purely one-2-one.


Do not masons see the Torah, Koran as divinenly inspired as well?


My understanding is that a mason has only one VSL, and that is the book of his own faith.


Why such a prominant place in the center of the lodge if it is only a book!


I have never seen it in the centre of a lodge



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by Bondi

Originally posted by TgSoe
Yeah, Ill buy that there are a lot of good points in religion, they teach you how to be a door matt with a smile on your face basically.


There is nothing in any religous book that states you have to let people walk over you. there is nothing to say that you cannot defend yourself with the same force in which you are being attacked.


Well in the Bible Jesus said, " If a man smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. " There are times when that would be wise and times it might not be. If its the LAW in any shape form or fasion it would be wise to turn the other cheek, or any time when the odds are stacked clearly against you.

The other one is," repay not evil for evil, vengeance is mine sayeth the lord.

I don't imagine the US military live by either of those creeds.




It's not the name that people should have faith in, it's the teachings. I would not recommend getting rid just stop calling any particular religion by a name.



Thats an interesting concept, everyone always has to out do the other when you have a lot of different names.



The bible we read today is a book of man only. Written, translated, re-written, re-translated time after time. I do not believe it is anywhere near the original. The original itself was written by a man.


Yes I agree there probably are bits and pieces of true storys in it and some that have been embellished.

I saw on TV the other day where a native group killed a child because its two teeth came in first and was considered a sign of bad luck, called mimi. To us it sounds obsurd. They probably had a bad year a while back and attributed it to a child whose two top teeth came in first and now they have adopted a ridiculous belief. There is no telling how long it will take them to figure out that a childs two top teeth coming in first doesn't bring on a bad year.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by BondiI have never seen it in the centre of a lodge


I've sent you a U2U, as not to violate the obligation. I say THE obligation, instead of MY obligation, because I left masonry after 2 months, and am no longer a mason. But out of respect for the masons in here, I will uphold the promise not to reveal ritual. With only 2 months experience as an EA, which was several years ago, I don't remember all that much though.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by TgSoe
The other one is," repay not evil for evil, vengeance is mine sayeth the lord.



Is there not also one that says

"eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" ?

Thats a question not a statement.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by TgSoe

Yeah, Ill buy that there are a lot of good points in religion, they teach you how to be a door matt with a smile on your face basically.



Religion teaches nothing of the sort. It's down to you personally how you take religion and what you do with it. The individual is responsible for his faith.



With all due respect to every religion, the bible teaches in Mathew 5:44

"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

These type of teachings were clearly designed to keep thousands of people living in peace and harmony causing little or no disturbance to the governors of thier day. They are not written to the soldier fighting for his country.



The fact that people become "door matts" does not make religion wrong. The people themselves are in the wrong for blindly following instead of learning and trying to grow through the religion.
If you can't play football, you can't place the blame on the football itself.



When you say ,"BLINDLY FOLLOWING it sounds like you are emplying that religions are put out as a maze or sifter, a test to see how long people will fall for it before they figure it out, Kind of like sending someone afer the can of striped paint on the shelf.


Religion is choice. Nearly all of the sacred texts stress the importance of freewill. If a follower refuses to recognise that he has the freewill to examine the religion, it his his ignorance that causes the problem.


Exactly which sacred texts are you refering to?



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 03:24 PM
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The VSL might appear in different parts of a Lodge (not the centre), but most importantly when it is between the WM and the Candidate when an obligation is undertaken. The geometric centre of the Lodge is more often reserved for other symbols.

It's not really possible for Freemasons to talk exhaustively about practices because they do vary with decades/centuries of development in different regions and constitutions. I personally don't know anyone who has visited every Lodge in the world.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
It's not really possible for Freemasons to talk exhaustively about practices because they do vary with decades/centuries of development in different regions and constitutions. I personally don't know anyone who has visited every Lodge in the world.


I've noticed with talking with different masons here, that the practices in Canada, specifically Ontario are a little different than in the UK etc..



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Bondi

Originally posted by TgSoe
The other one is," repay not evil for evil, vengeance is mine sayeth the lord.



Is there not also one that says

"eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" ?



Yes in the old Testament law, but supposedly we are not under the OT law after Jesus came. He changed the rules. In fact the verse I quoted earlier, what should have come before it reads like this, thus abolishing the old testament law.

Mathew 5:38 Ye have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but I say unto thee, resist not evil, if a man smite thee on thy right cheek turn to him also the other."



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor

I've noticed with talking with different masons here, that the practices in Canada, specifically Ontario are a little different than in the UK etc..


Mostly 'Emulation' working.



posted on Dec, 9 2004 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
The VSL might appear in different parts of a Lodge (not the centre), but most importantly when it is between the WM and the Candidate when an obligation is undertaken. The geometric centre of the Lodge is more often reserved for other symbols.


In the United States, the Altar is almost universally found in the center of the Lodge room, whereupon rest the Holy Bible. Square, and Compasses.



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 11:23 AM
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Within 'Emulation' ritual the word alter is not used to refer to the place where the 'Book of the Sacred law' (Bible) is kept.

The term Pedastal has been in use for many years now.



posted on Dec, 10 2004 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by billmcelligott

Originally posted by chief_counsellor

I've noticed with talking with different masons here, that the practices in Canada, specifically Ontario are a little different than in the UK etc..


Mostly 'Emulation' working.



As Bill has stated, Emulation is the most popular working in England but even here there can be differences. One example that springs to mind is Bristol. The ritual there varies greatly when compared to Emulation and seems to bear a closer resemblance to the Irish working - probably because Bristol is a port and Ireland it's nearest neighbour across the sea. There is some speculation as to which place can lay claim to being the origintor of this specific ritual,but anyway, it seems that masonry was imported and exported around the globe under different guises (although the general story is the same). It's therefore no suprise that different countries differ in ritual aspects when a country in itself may have several different workings in use!!!
I believe that there are over 100 different workings in use around the world at this time - that's without even including any minor variations that some Lodges or Provinces make in their practices.

One of the most interesting parts of being a Freemason (if you like the ritual) is going to places where Lodges use variations. It's great fun to see something that you do, done in a different way and can also be advantageous when it comes to learning about your own Freemasonry.



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