An ATS Jew looks at Anti-Semitism, Israel the de-facto Apartheid State, and Palestinian Rights

Very nice and honest post, S * F for you.

I am not sure what might push people on power on both side in Palestine/Israel to give up whatever power they have and move forward with solution.

Are your views influenced with you not being religious, and can we conclude that religions are what makes already complicated situation even more complicated??

www.abrahamfund.org...


My stepfather helped found this incredibly successful organization that works toward tolerance between Muslims and Jews. They raise millions upon millions each year and directly affect change in local neighborhoods.

a reply to: cuckooold

Why do you refer to yourself as a Jewish person if you're not religious? Is it because you're "culturally Jewish"? (A serious question, I'm just wondering.)

I wish we had more people like you in the world. I'm a starch anti-Zionist but I stand with the Jewish people probably more so than my own. People need to realize, not only about Israel, but many countries (looking at the U.S. primarily) that our governments are not the people.

I feel that both the populaces of the United States and Israel are held captive by their rogue(?) governments that are operating for their own causes instead of the peoples. I don't have a solution to the issue in regards to Palestine VS Israel, but the one country idea sounds like the best one I've heard so far. I have a feeling many would welcome it.

Thanks for a great thread.

a reply to: Danbones

but, no right to question where the money goes?

i didnt say that! Im talking about giving a new definition to a place one has never visited!

originally posted by: Auricom
Why do you refer to yourself as a Jewish person if you're not religious? Is it because you're "culturally Jewish"? (A serious question, I'm just wondering.)

I believe you are mixing ethnicity with religion.

Jewish is used for both - ethnic group as well religion.

CIA Factbook - Israel

a reply to: combatmaster
Why would you waste time posting a video by a bigot like Prager? The similarities has been shown time and time again in the media by people who live in Israel.

Also you said this

I dont have an opinion about most things because i haven't experienced most things and i know reading a book or talking with someone will be laughable in the eyes of those who have experienced it for real, whatever it may be i.e. war, love, driving, cooking etc etc.

So why would you believe anything Prager says about Israel when he has always lived in America?

originally posted by: Auricom
a reply to: cuckooold

Why do you refer to yourself as a Jewish person if you're not religious? Is it because you're "culturally Jewish"? (A serious question, I'm just wondering.)

If you follow 'official' designations, I am a Jew because my mother is Jewish. I also have what is known as 'Right/Law of Return';

en.wikipedia.org...

The Law of Return (Hebrew: חֹוק הַשְׁבוּת, ḥok ha-shvūt) is Israeli legislation, passed on 5 July 1950, that gives Jews the right of return and the right to live in Israel and to gain citizenship. In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people of Jewish ancestry, and their spouses.

I have issues with this because in some ways I have more privilege than a Palestinian person in their own homeland, but that's another issue for another time.

I was born in the U.S, but do not consider myself an American (despite having NYC Jewish parents). Culturally I am Australian - I sound Australian, and regardless of personal politics or belief, there is a definite cultural aspect to being an Aussie. In my opinion it is the same with being Jewish.

My parents wanted their children to grow up without having religious beliefs shoved down their throats (which my parents suffered through, and they thought it hypocritical). As already mentioned, I am Jewish because my mother is - I have no problem with this definition (and Hitler would not discriminate either. Plenty of my family in Europe were shipped off to the concentration camps, despite not being religious - there was distinction made there at all.).

Identity is a multi tiered structure. I am Australian, I am a teacher and musician, and I am Jewish. While I don't identify with Zionist thought, there is also a progressive liberal aspect of being Jewish (the opposite of the Neocons). Jewish people were heavily involved with civil rights in the U.S in the 1960s, and my parents were part of this stream. One to do with tolerance, and acceptance of the rights of people to essentially live and let live. There are also certain quirks and stereotypes (think Seinfeld, or Woody Allen) which ring true. While not an overwhelming part of my character, I certainly accept that I am Jewish on a number of levels. Perhaps more of a subconscious element, it is still definitely there, and part of my character.

a reply to: cuckooold

I see, thanks for clearing that up. I read an interview with Harrison Ford who said the same thing you did about not being religious but still being Jewish and just wondered exactly what that all was about.

a reply to: buster2010

Why would you waste time posting a video by a bigot like Prager?

Why would you waste time quoting a bigot like Hitler?

So why would you believe anything Prager says about Israel

Thats the point.... i dont believe that what he is saying is true, I happen to know, because i live or have lived in these places being talked about. He is not giving his opinion, he is merely stating facts!

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I think we are pretty much on the same page, along with many others here. I don't know if you read the post above from Gianfar, but it is extremely good and sadly, an eye-opener if correct.

a reply to: Shiloh7

I did read it and it was a very excellent post. He very succinctly said what everyone knows to be true.

I believe that talking like this is good for all of us. Truly. Things cannot continue the way they have been, and having a workable solution is key to solving all the difficulties.

We are up against a lot of opposition however. And these thoughts take time to take hold in the minds of the many. There are many that want war, rather than a solution. Some are very bent on absolute domination - on both sides of the wall and work on propagandizing to that end. That is not workable, and the people are more important than such desires - again, on both sides of the wall. But those are who we are up against in struggling for a peaceful end that gives respect to all parties.

Threads such as this, people such as the OP in this thread, and yourself and others gives hope for a better future. I pray we can pass this hope around to the point where it one day becomes more than a prayer, but a reality.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: Auricom
Why do you refer to yourself as a Jewish person if you're not religious? Is it because you're "culturally Jewish"? (A serious question, I'm just wondering.)

I believe you are mixing ethnicity with religion.

Jewish is used for both - ethnic group as well religion.

CIA Factbook - Israel

Jewishness is determined by your commitment to observe the Torah teachings... In otherwords one could call themselves a Jew yet if they do not apply the Jewish teachings to their lives they are just liars. No apply the same to Israel as a country, how Jewish is Israel?

a reply to: DarknStormy

Is that a fact?

This will likely be my only post in this thread. It was one of the most depressing reads I've had in a month.

I'm going to give my own opinion on it, and then quietly back out of the room.

"Proportional representation" - by itself - will not work. Folks will always worry about the "outnumbered side", and that side will play the underdog... whether Palestinian at the moment, or Jew in the future. Both are simply great at playing the victim to their own advantage. Therefore, proportional representation - alone - will not work.

Likewise, equal representation - by itself - will not work. it nearly entirely negates the will of the majority, and by far over-represents the will of the minority. That's a recipe for disaster in a religio-politcally charged atmosphere such as is present there. They don't know what "resentment" is, or how bad it can get, until they try that and watch it explode when the majority has had enough, and everyone is cooped up in the same nation, with nowhere to run, nowhere to "walk it off" until steam stops flying out of their ears.

The only thing I can see having even a chance at working at the moment is a two state, one nation solution. A "Jewish" state - call it Israel for the sake of explanation - with it's own form of state government, as makes it's constituency happy, and a Palestinian state - call it "Palestine" for the sake of explanation - with IT'S own form of state government, whatever makes IT'S constituency happy. Over those two states, at a national level, a Federal government over the both of them. The government of that federation would have to have a bicameral legislature - one house with proportional representation, one house with equal representation, and the blessings of both houses before any action was taken or law passed.

Now the nation itself could NOT be called either "Israel" or "Palestine". Those two terms have become entirely too politically charged, too polarized, for either of them to work in labeling what would be essentially a new nation. Can't have anyone crowing about how "we" won, as that would be detrimental to forging the necessary Unity of the nation - it would just perpetuate the division. EVERYONE wins when the kids can grow without fear of being blown up. Call it "Shalom al-Quds" for all I care, but neither of the former labels would be viable for the nation, however much they might work well for the individual states.

The federation government would concern itself with things like commerce between the states, movement between the states, disagreements between the states, and presenting a united front in dealing with external nations. Not to say it would be limited to those things, but only using them as examples, that it would deal with the best interests of BOTH, not side with either, or be overwhelmingly controlled by either.

No one would have to give up their individuality or identity - they would just have to learn to work together, to play nice. Unity forged in diversity.

As nearly as I can tell, Hamas would have to go. I can't find anywhere that they've expressed a willingness to work together, but they DO seem to have expressed plenty of willingness for domination and destruction. The Palestinian "refugees" could be repatriated upon an oath of allegiance to the new nation. Their choice - if they don't want it, they could stay out in the cold with Hamas and continue whining about being "refugees without a homeland". It would be hollow whining at best, since the option was given them.

Jews could live in Palestine if they chose, and Palestinians live in Israel if they chose - they would only have to subject themselves to the laws of that state, just as the states subject themselves to the laws of the nation. Free travel between the two, just as in any other free nation. None of this BS about how "they" took "our" land - live where you want. No one took your land - you're raising your kids on it, just look towards your feet - whichever state you choose to live in.

Miyamoto Musashi said, in "A Book of Five Rings", "from one thing, know ten thousand things" - in other words, extrapolate. This is what I have learned living in a "mixed" marriage on a personal level, but it can be applied - extrapolated - to a national level. The only thing holding it back is fear, and perhaps bloodlust.

As a side note, a desire for domination is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS born from fear, never from anything else. If one has no fear, there is nothing to need to control, nothing to dominate.

Now, before I get flamed by either faction here, I know as well as anyone else that this isn't going to happen, ever. They (and their hordes of minion supporters) will keep on dukeing it out until the last man is standing, and wondering where everyone went, and why he has no one at all, of either side, left to rule over. In other words, I don't expect ANYONE to read this and take it seriously, or to heart. It simply doesn't fit in with either side's desire for domination, and so will be entirely rejected out of hand.

No need to flame me - I won't see it. It'll be a waste of perfectly good butane. I'm outta here. Too depressing to see people demonize the "other" and toe their own party line, "victimize" their OWN side simply by claiming it so, with no one wanting to give an inch or see a human when they look "over there" at the other side in the interest of peace for the kids to grow up in.

a reply to: twilit

Where are all the people on ATS that dislike Jews? I've read so many anti-Jewish statements over the years on here that I was hoping a few more would show up... or are they just scared to comment on a thread specifically about anti-Jewsishness? Pu**ies

Notice I said anti-Jewish instead of anti-Semetic since apparently harping on that pointless semantical distinction seems to be one of their goto points. I'm not sure what that point is, but apparently it's quite a trenchant one.

I imagine if any of them were basing their prejudice on facts and knowledge then they'd be happy to show up and tell us about the Elders of Zion worldwide complicit Jewish plot or something, or about how Ashkenazi aren't really Jews (disproven by DNA testing)... tell me 'bout the bad Jews all you who are chicken# to comment on this thread but make remarks in countless others.

a reply to: cuckooold

I was born in the U.S, but do not consider myself an American (despite having NYC Jewish parents). Culturally I am Australian - I sound Australian, and regardless of personal politics or belief, there is a definite cultural aspect to being an Aussie. In my opinion it is the same with being Jewish.



I think this is where the problem is and why the Jewish people have been kicked out of so many countries if you were a dog you would be a very confused mongeral with so much going on in your mind

I to have Jewish blood and a ex chief rabbi in my family

But i would die for the country of my birth

If you haven't seen the presentation by Miko Peled, I think you'll enjoy it. I would like to pick up his book and read it some time. He's the son of an Israeli General and really blows the lid off of 'what the masses are led to believe'.

originally posted by: twilit
a reply to: DarknStormy

Is that a fact?

There are 613 Mizvots or commandments. I have them right next to me and can quote from them at any time. Firstly, Judaism is a Way of Life, not something you label yourself and then disregard the point of the label.

So under Jewish Law, let's look at a few of the laws.

Criminal Laws

278. Not to slay an innocent person
280. Not to rob by violence
282. Not to covet what belongs to another

Well the current State of Israel was built off all of the above.

Clothing

365. That a man shall not wear womens clothing
366. That a woman should not wear men's clothing

Homosexuality is commended in Israel and I'm sure some of those people do dress in the opposite genders clothing

Israeli Rulership

582. To appoint a King
583. Not to appoint as ruler over Israel, one who comes from non-Israelites

No King in the past and no King right now either, the current rulers of Israel are not Israelites either and this can be proven through ground breaking studies which confirm most of todays Jews are from European backgrounds. Netanyahu is a self confessed "Atheist Jew". Obviously he doesn't believe in the teachings f Judaism but doesn't have an issue labelling himself a Jew at the same time. But consider the following.

God

1. To know that God Exists
2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal
3. Not to Blaspheme
9. Not to put the word of God to the test

All of the above are Jewish commandments. Now again, tell me whether the modern State of Israel is a Jewish State? It isn't and that is a fact. Though it may be a homeland for Jews, it isn't a Jewish State, it is a secular, murdering shi**ole controlled by Satanists.

a reply to: DarknStormy

DarknStormy Could you provide a link to these groundbreaking studies that prove European Jews don't have Jewish DNA? Last I heard the studies showed a clear genetic connection. The whole mass conversion thing is only a theory, esp. when you claim that ALL European Jews are a result of that conversion. Do you have proof or are you just presenting propaganda you choose to believe because it suits your agenda?

And why are you listing mitzvot as proof non-religious Jews aren't Jewish? Wouldn't not following all 617 commandments just make them bad or lazy Jews? Not sure why that's a disqualifier. Where does it say they're not Jewish if they don't follow all 617? Who are you to say definitively what is and isn't a Jew when the whole world has had a different opinion for almost 6000 years? Sounds like an opinion to me.

Rabbis don't even agree on what many of those commandments mean but it's nice to know you understand them all. Did you read the original Hebrew or Sumarian or whatever language they were written in? Interpretation is important. Mis-interpreting a single dot can change a word's meaning - that's why a lot of people used to believe that Jews have horns, because the words for Horns and Light are very similar and someone translated a passage to say that Moses had horns on his head instead of rings of light.

Are you saying that Israel is populated by Satanists all pretending to be Jews? I'd like a link for that too if you have one.

Is the Vatican a Catholic state? I'm pretty sure they're Catholics and I'm pretty sure they don't follow Jesus' teachings 100%.

Actually, while you're at it, I'd really love a link showing all these Israeli Satanists dressing up as transvestites, lol. Seriously?

originally posted by: douglas5
a reply to: cuckooold

I was born in the U.S, but do not consider myself an American (despite having NYC Jewish parents). Culturally I am Australian - I sound Australian, and regardless of personal politics or belief, there is a definite cultural aspect to being an Aussie. In my opinion it is the same with being Jewish.

I think this is where the problem is and why the Jewish people have been kicked out of so many countries if you were a dog you would be a very confused mongeral with so much going on in your mind

I to have Jewish blood and a ex chief rabbi in my family

But i would die for the country of my birth

Thanks for your oh-so cogent ramblings (not).

Why exactly were the Jewish people kicked out of so many countries? I doubt it was because they considered themselves culturally part of a nation.

Identity is multi tiered - there are many factors that make up a person's identity. I'm glad that you are happy to die for the country of your birth. I wish you every success in achieving your aims. I personally find your statement naive and overly simplistic. Why someone would state that they are willing to die for the country of their birth, without giving any reason for doing so is at best a really dumb thing to say. If one wishes to read further into this, there seems a blind willingness to accept anything 'your country' may throw at you, in a blind nationalistic jingoistic fervour. If you were born in Germany in 1920, or Iraq in the last 40 years would you feel the same desire to die for your country? As it stands you've made a statement accusing me of being a mongrel dog, somehow put yourself on a pedestal as being better than me, and offered no reasons whatsoever for anything you have said.

Good luck with all that. I'd personally prefer to think things through and come to my own conclusions, 'mongrel dog' and all, rather than come across in an almost fascist manner, almost shouting how you will 'die for your country' (cue patriotic music and Tom Cruise gazing off into the sunset scene), and giving all the appearance of an ignoramus who has no idea what they are talking about.