It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

An ATS Jew looks at Anti-Semitism, Israel the de-facto Apartheid State, and Palestinian Rights

page: 1
46
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:
+27 more 
posted on May, 14 2014 @ 06:18 AM
link   
On ATS I have noticed that there is a fair amount of stereotyping that goes on. Whether one is Liberal or Libertarian, Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, a skeptic, or a believer, there is tendency to try to reduce the 'other' to a bunch of slogans.

As a Jewish person, I feel it is worth stressing that not all Jewish people think and feel the same. I've noticed a bias against Israel that surfaces from time to time. I personally have no issue with this - I too have issues with the state of Israel, and the way they treat the Palestinian people. I am not alone in this thinking, yet I feel that a commonly held myth is that all Jews support Israel. I've also noticed that some individuals will use the topic of Israel as a way of letting broader anti-Semitic views out in public. I have seen some posters here who show some sympathies for the National Socialists of Germany of the 1930s/1940s, and I think it equally important that these people be held to account.


My Own History




As already mentioned, I am of Jewish descent. I am not religious at all, and I would call myself a cultural Jew. My parents and grandparents come from New York, in many ways the epicentre of the mass migration of Jewish people to the 'New World' that was so pevalent at the turn of the century. On my mother's side, my great grandparents came out from Austria and Hungary. On my father's side my grandfather came from Poland, and my great grandparents on his mother's side came from Russia and the Ukraine. I know little of the history of my family except for the fact that both sides of the family are considered to be completely Jewish, and that any of my relatives who stayed in Europe ended up being killed in concentration camps. Another small piece of information I have gleaned is that the reason my great grandfather on my mother's side came to the U.S was because of a violent anti-Semitic incident which happened to him. He was made foreman on a farm, but the other workers refused to take orders from a 'Jew', and they violently beat him within an inch of his life. Upon recovering from his injuries, he decided to flee from the pogroms which happened with some regularity, as well as the rapidly approaching First World War.


What is anti-Semitism?



According to Wikipedia, Anti-Semitism is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group. I more or less agree with this, but as a Jewish person I consider it of the utmost importance that people understand that anti-Semitism, and criticism of Israel are two very different things. I find it a commonly held misconception that people assume if you are Jewish you support the state of Israel. This is often, not the case at all.



A lot of cultural Jews are brought up with fairly Liberal, left of centre beliefs with the idea of tolerance and understanding of great import. Post September 11, a lot of this type of thought caught the label 'self hating Jew', as the Neo-conservative agenda came to the fore.

It's not just cultural Jews who don't support the Israeli state and policies. There are in fact, some Orthodox Jews who also have a problem with Zionist ideals.



As has been mentioned plenty of times before, the Palestinian people are a Semitic people, and anti-Semitism can also be applied to them. Not all Palestinians are Muslims either; there are plenty of Christian Palestinians. Neither are all Palestinian Muslims extremists who want to see the complete destruction of Israel. Finally, not all Muslims are Semitic people.


Co-Existence





I have a quite close personal friend from Lebanon, who was in the PLO, and he and I agree on a surprising number of issues. One of these is the idea that the only real peace that will come about in the region is a 'one state solution', where the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian people live together, with appropriate representation of all in the parliament, and the defacto apartheid state ceases to exist. No internal passport checks and gates for the Palestinians to go into Israel, and no private roads for Israel cutting swathes through Palestinian territory, going into lands appropriated by Jewish Israelis. Perhaps an unrealistic fantasy, but what he and I consider the only real way of achieving peace.

It strikes me as somewhat ludicrous, the idea that there can be a Jewish democratic state, as by being Jewish, it precludes democracy. How can there be a democracy if some people are not recognised as citizens, or are herded away to reservation like areas?



Hand in Hand



Something many people are probably not aware of is that in Israel there is a school called 'Hand in Hand' which is a school that has both Palestinian and Jewish students, and tried to work toward peace.

www.tabletmag.com...


In Divided Jerusalem, a School Bridges Boundaries Between Young Israeli Arabs and Jews.

The walls at the Max Rayne Hand in Hand school in Jerusalem, located along the Green Line in the city’s southwest, are draped with hand-painted murals, squiggly sketches, and paper cutouts around words like “dignity”—but, like everything else at the school, it’s written twice: once in Hebrew, kavod, and once in Arabic, karam. Each class is run by two teachers, one Jewish and one Arab, and the 600 students are split evenly between Israeli Jews and Arabs.

In a diverse yet deeply segregated Jerusalem, where mundane public places can quickly become social battlefields, the students at this school are an experiment in coexistence. They are the leading edge of a small but growing trend toward bilingual, multicultural education in Israel.

Ten-year-old Atalia Davidoff, a Jewish student, says that while she regularly gets flak from her neighborhood friends for going to school with and hanging out with Arabs, she likes that it’s something out of the ordinary. “It’s really fun to learn with Arabs,” she explained. “It makes me feel special.”


The school also has a website:

www.handinhandk12.org...

It is initiatives like this school which I see as the only way forward for dialogue.

An Uncommon View for a Jewish Person, or not?





One of the reasons both myself, and my friend who is ex-PLO feel so strongly about a one state solution is that a two state solution is by its nature divisive and encourages each opposing side to see their opposite as other. When you reduce something to other, it's far easier to demonise them. I doubt that anyone disagrees that there have been atrocities on both sides. Israel is unique in that they are very strong and hold all the cards, yet they are able to portray themselves as weak and at risk by the Palestinians. The Palestinians are disenfranchised, but they are a smart and tenacious people who understand PR, and hopefully Israel can be 'shamed' into making a fairer deal.
edit on 14-5-2014 by cuckooold because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 14 2014 @ 06:37 AM
link   
Excellent thread Cuck.

S&F for making me think as such at 0730.

edit on 14-5-2014 by BlastedCaddy because: Must be filled in



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 06:45 AM
link   
All this tolerance will not be tolerated! I will definitely be bringing this up at the next jew convention.
Israeli politicians have certainly treated the Palestinian people less than fairly. But the Palestinian government has treated the Palestinians far worse than the Israelis ever could have



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 06:50 AM
link   
a reply to: cuckooold

Very nice thread. I am also a supporter of a one state solution. It's the only possible solution to be had.

But what that means is an end to racism all the way around, and the idea of a republic to replace it, where everyone is equally represented. The first war is the one against all forms of racism, if we win that war then the one state solution can easily be had.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 06:55 AM
link   
Good thread .. well written explains far better than can with my rusty english that there is a vast difference between governments and the people they are supposed to represent .. one can oppose the policies of an oppressive government without opposing the people .. s&f
Time for a beer been long day here ..



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 06:59 AM
link   
a reply to: OpinionatedB

Although the one state solution is certainly a very good option, is not the real fear, that Muslims have larger families and would eventually hold sway voting and population wise? The Orthodox Jews have large families also but the Muslims outnumber the Orthodox so the problem eventually comes down to a numbers problem. Also the outstanding numbers of Palestinian expelled need a solution to be built into the one state equation.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:03 AM
link   
Pretty sure House of Saud in Saudi Arabia and Zionists will not allow there to be one state solution since it removes power from them both.

The Wahhabi movement needs the hate to continue to increase it's ranks for it's Saudi Arabian controllers by creating duality between the groups so that the people in the middle eastern countries are easier to control by fatwa from Saudi Arabia. You are fighting a Muslim version of the catholic inquisition of the middle ages used to gain power and material wealth.
edit on 14-5-2014 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:05 AM
link   
I am of the belief that Israel doesn't exist because it's a 'Homeland for the Jews', but in Real-Politik terms, it allows Western interests to gain access to lands traditionally owned by Arabs (and of course by definition, closer to all that oil and oil $$$). The original Jews of the region are the Mizrahi Jews, who are essentially Arab Jews. They have dark skin, and are treated as second class citizens. The Ashkenazi Jews (I am one of these) rule Israel, and they are European Jews.

I forgot to include in the thread the belief that the Arabs and Jews of the region are related. Obviously via religion, via Isaac and Ishmael, the son's of Abraham. Abraham/Ibrahim of course an immensely important figure both in Islam, and Judaism. For those who want something of a more scientific basis, we have this:

news.bbc.co.uk...



Jews and Arabs are 'genetic brothers' BBC Jewish heritage has been maintained

They may have their differences but Jews and Arabs share a common genetic heritage that stretches back thousands of years. The striking similarities in their biology have just been revealed in a study of over 1,300 men in almost 30 countries worldwide.

Scientists compared the men's Y chromosomes, the tiny structures within cells that carry the genetic instructions that tell a developing foetus to become a boy.

edit on 14-5-2014 by cuckooold because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:06 AM
link   
a reply to: Shiloh7

In a representative republic numbers wont matter that much. Equal representation is key.

As far as population goes, Muslim women would often not have as many children should the option not to have as many be readily available and easy to acquire. I am very serious on this point.

The expelled Palestinians I see as being the biggest problem. And also the one problem I am personally unsure how best to address. I have always been hopeful that someone will come up with something on this point that is good.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:08 AM
link   

originally posted by: dashen
All this tolerance will not be tolerated! I will definitely be bringing this up at the next jew convention.
Israeli politicians have certainly treated the Palestinian people less than fairly. But the Palestinian government has treated the Palestinians far worse than the Israelis ever could have


Sure they have. You can tell this by how many times the Palestinian government have used their helicopters and jets to bomb the refugee camps.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:14 AM
link   
a reply to: cuckooold

I mentioned the Mizrahi Jews being second class citizens in another thread. I think its very relevant to proving the real situation. This is not about Judaism at all, but about one group vying for complete dominance in the area - as you mentioned, western interests.
edit on 14-5-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:20 AM
link   
a reply to: OpinionatedB

I was going to put this in my thread, but ran out of space, is the role of the Irgun in the formation of the Israeli state. Essentially a Jewish paramilitary terrorist organisation, they were agitating in Palestine from 1931, and actively perpetrated attacks against the Palestinians.

This website discusses possiblew alliances (or mutually beneficial goals) of Zionists and National Socialists;

www.ihr.org...

Interesting stuff.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:22 AM
link   
a reply to: cuckooold

Interesting. I'll have to give it a read.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:28 AM
link   
An ATS Jew looks at... the irony of your thread title and the subject of your thread.
It was a nice read though!



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:28 AM
link   

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: cuckooold

Very nice thread. I am also a supporter of a one state solution. It's the only possible solution to be had.

But what that means is an end to racism all the way around, and the idea of a republic to replace it, where everyone is equally represented. The first war is the one against all forms of racism, if we win that war then the one state solution can easily be had.


The one state solution will never work. Whose state will it be Israeli or Palestinian? Would it be right to tell the Palestinians we are going to take away your nation and give it to a bunch of Europeans who have no roots in the area? If you look back before the Europeans arrived the Jews and Muslims lived side by side with each other. The Europeans should move back to the borders that were made in 1948 and the land that has been stolen since then gave back to the people that it was stolen from. All the racism really started when the Europeans arrived and has only gotten worst the only thing that will help to stop this is a two state solution.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:31 AM
link   
a reply to: buster2010

I disagree. A one state solution is what is needed. That is too small an area to chop it up into two pieces. Problems such as water rights and airspace become huge problems when you look at trying to make the postage stamp into pieces. One state is the only solution to that.

As to what it should be called I would go with something neutral. Names wont matter if the people get along and work out the problems. Just call it The People's Land. Who cares?
edit on 14-5-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:33 AM
link   
a reply to: Shiloh7


Although the one state solution is certainly a very good option, is not the real fear, that Muslims have larger families and would eventually hold sway voting and population wise? The Orthodox Jews have large families also but the Muslims outnumber the Orthodox so the problem eventually comes down to a numbers problem. Also the outstanding numbers of Palestinian expelled need a solution to be built into the one state equation. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


You have stated the Jewish-Israeli fear very succinctly. On the other hand, historical and sociological research suggests that as security, material abundance and education becomes more widespread in a population, birth rates drop dramatically. In Europe and Japan, where there is a high level of material prosperity, birthrates have fallen so low that they are below the replenishment rate. If Japan does not open up to immigration, its population will age and decrease! The point being: once Palestinian Arabs achieve a level of security, prosperity and education, their birthrates will fall, and the "demographic problem" goes away. It also suggests that some of the Palestinian Arabs' suffering may be an attempt by their leaders to encourage growing numbers of soldiers.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:35 AM
link   
It is very refreshing to see Jewish people opposing Zionism and the apartide regime ruling in Israel...It is about time some sane individuals get together and make that one state idea into reality....People have had enough misery during past decades and the ME and the whole world deserves to have some peace and stability for a change....Just imagine a world that Israelis,Arabs,Europeans,Persians and Americans are living side by side helping each other while learning enjoying and improving their lives together....Of course when there is peace there is no need to pile up the weapons and that is what preventing the peace to be achieved,because the big arm dealers plus many other corporations and politicians who profit from human misery and fear mongering do not wish that to happen.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:43 AM
link   
a reply to: buster2010


The one state solution will never work. Whose state will it be Israeli or Palestinian? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


What about a federated two state system with an Israeli knesset and a Palestinian parliament? There could be defined areas of authority without borders and checkpoints. The illegal settlements on the West Bank would be administered by the Palestinian government, and Arabs living inside the 1947 border would be under Israeli administration. Each could feel they had their own "homeland" while working together to form a powerful democratic bloc in a region not known for its democratic institutions.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 07:45 AM
link   
a reply to: buster2010


Sure they have. You can tell this by how many times the Palestinian government have used their helicopters and jets to bomb the refugee camps. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...


Why are they still in refugee camps instead of state subsidized public housing?



new topics

top topics



 
46
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join