Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: maes2

Very good question. Islam is not literal. a minority of muslims really think God has hands. or legs. or ears. This is because Muslims have forgotten the true successor of their prophet, Ali. The same as Christians who have forgotten the successor of Jesus, Saint Peter and they say Jesus was God. So I invite us to take a look at description of God from mouth of the forgotten successor of Muhammad, Ali :

Is this what makes the difference between Sunni and Shia?

Peter was a disciple, Paul was an apostle, but when it comes to the Gospel, neither of them are better or worse than the other. As far as successor, no. There was no successor to Jesus Christ.

Peter, as the first bishop of Rome, was not as successor, but as the one who worked with the early church only to organize it, that's all. I don't understand this concept of Peter as successor, that's not how Christianity is.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Christianity is one body, with one head, Jesus Christ. There is no such thing as Peter or Paul as successors. We are made partakers together, in the same body.

1 Corinthians 12: 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2You know that you were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as you were led.

3Therefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of workings, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for profit.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But in all these works that one and same Spirit, dividing to every man individually as he will.

Many Members Make up one Church Body

12For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

This is the true baptism, the mystical communion and union of Christ and His church. One body, one Lord. I say Jesus is Lord and stand not accursed, because Christ is the Head, He is living now, as head of His church and His body. He descended (died) and ascended (resurrected). There is no such thing as a successor, all those who are His, are all members of the same body.

The primacy of Peter is found all throughout the Gospel. Our Lord named Peter head of His Church on earth.
Peter is not a "successor" as you keep saying WiI. You read in the Old Testament God names holy men as leaders
on this earth. He would do the same in the New Covenant. The "successors" are all the men who followed after
Peter as leader of Christ's Church. The list of Popes is unbroken from the Apostles. Isn't it interesting, the center
of the Faith is in a place called St. Peter's Basilica. Teasing you. No offense.

Protestantism split from the faith (10/31/1517), Roman Catholicism. They have no visible authority, denying Christ's authority first given to Peter, they insanely declare a Catholic book, Holy Scripture, the written Word as their new authority but actually every Protestant is their own authority, their own pope following the heresy of private judgment, each person decides the meaning of the written Word declaring the Holy Spirit led them to their interpretation.

No way. God the Holy Spirit is NOT the author of confusion and 10,000 different meanings, hence 33,000 Protestant
sects.

The first Christians were being martyred, they gave a code word for the city of Rome...."Babylon."

Water Baptism as Our Lord explains His term "born again" to Nicodemus is necessary. You become a child of God
at Baptism. It is in Water Baptism, the Sacrament of Baptism, Original Sin is removed from your soul and God can dwell in your soul. Read further in John 3, John 3:22, Our Lord went out with the Apostles and BAPTIZED.

We disagree with each other now but wait, God is going to show you personally very soon. Remember, remember.

Peter was in Rome, as leader of the faith. He was martyred, crucified upside down. The code word for Rome was Babylon. So silly, objecting non-Catholic Christians today make up their own history, thinking they are smarter now than the men who knew Christ and men, the Early Church Fathers who new their successors!

Like there would be no record of the faith passed on.... There is...from the beginning. The written Word was
compiled by the Pope Damasus' God given authority in 382 A.D. There is documented Christian history before the fourth century.

Give the first Christians a break. God wants us all to believe the same. Get ready everyone to say "yes!"


1 Peter 5:13
The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark.

Has anyone brought this up? There is a modern Protestant sect started by a Evangelical minister to convert
those in Judaism to Protestantism. It is a mix of a little bit of Judaism and a lot of Protestantism.

Originally called Messianic Judaism, a mix of those who deny Christ and those who deny many of Our Lord's
New Covenant grace giving teachings. They basically use Old Testament language and a few traditions of Judaism
to preach Protestantism.

It is true Protestantism, there are splits already from the first Messianic Jews!

The Koran states people are to convert to Islam or be killed. This is not of God. Name the good fruit of Islam?

a reply to: colbe

Peter was in Rome, as leader of the faith. He was martyred, crucified upside down.

That is a myth, not something in the Bible.
There was also a crypt or something that was supposed to be Peter's but was found out to be something completely different.
The Vatican was built on a site where the army trained their horses.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: colbe

Peter was in Rome, as leader of the faith. He was martyred, crucified upside down.

That is a myth, not something in the Bible.
There was also a crypt or something that was supposed to be Peter's but was found out to be something completely different.
The Vatican was built on a site where the army trained their horses.

Such an obvious false statement you make Jim, one day soon, no more denying history. You are very definite to convince others with your..."or something." Peter talks about Rome, I just posted the Scripture which you failed to include above.

They have found recently more remains of St. Peter there in Rome, under the Basilica. The first remains of Peter's
body are placed under the beautiful high altar at St. Peter's.



1 Peter 5:13
The church that is in Babylon (code word for Rome, the first Christians were being martyred by the Romans), elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark.

a reply to: colbe

Protestantism split from the faith (10/31/1517), Roman Catholicism. They have no visible authority, denying Christ's authority first given to Peter, they insanely declare a Catholic book, Holy Scripture, the written Word as their new authority but actually every Protestant is their own authority, their own pope following the heresy of private judgment, each person decides the meaning of the written Word declaring the Holy Spirit led them to their interpretation.

"Heresy" is a term that the Catholics basically reversed the meaning of from how it was understood previously.
In the Bible, it meant squabbles that caused schism, not having independent ideas.
Catholicism took schism to a high art form by creating squabbles to force their own power over whoever showed their own opinions, then to crush the life out of them.

Here's the same verse from the KJV. King James' paid translators alter most of the original writings. They left
this verse pretty much intact.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: colbe

Protestantism split from the faith (10/31/1517), Roman Catholicism. They have no visible authority, denying Christ's authority first given to Peter, they insanely declare a Catholic book, Holy Scripture, the written Word as their new authority but actually every Protestant is their own authority, their own pope following the heresy of private judgment, each person decides the meaning of the written Word declaring the Holy Spirit led them to their interpretation.

"Heresy" is a term that the Catholics basically reversed the meaning of from how it was understood previously.
In the Bible, it meant squabbles that caused schism, not having independent ideas.
Catholicism took schism to a high art form by creating squabbles to force their own power over whoever showed their own opinions, then to crush the life out of them.

Do not believe this nonsense folks. The heresies, false teachings, not one of them came from the Apostles. Bible Alone, Faith Alone, the Imputation Heresy, Man is completely depraved, Everyone can interpret the Bible, "private judgment" of Scripture, etc were NEVER ever taught Christ or passed down from the Apostles.

These false teachings showed up circa October 31, 1517 and after, all apart of Protestantism. They are not of
God.

Jim, it would be good if you looked up the meaning of Schism and heresy in the dictionary.

a reply to: colbe

They have found recently more remains of St. Peter there in Rome, under the Basilica. The first remains of Peter's
body are placed under the beautiful high altar at St. Peter's.

No, N O , absolutely No!
You have to be dreaming, they did not find Peter under the Altar.
Sorry, but your church is completely fraudulent and is just a product of human pride that makes up stories to boost their ego and is nothing but a band of thugs operating under the guise of religiosity.

a reply to: colbe

Jim, it would be good if you looked up the meaning of Schism and heresy in the dictionary.

It's just going to give you the version as defined by centuries of blood lust on the part of the Catholic church.
What you should do is consult a good New Testament Greek lexicon on those words as they are found in the Bible.

a reply to: colbe

etc were NEVER ever taught Christ or passed down from the Apostles.

The chain of succession was broken in the zeal to kill Arians.
There was war, and many fell victim to it, until all was left was the "orthodox" who were brought out of pagan temples so the church would have people who could at least read and write.
You should study some of your own church history and you will see who the saints of orthodoxy really were, they were not Arian, and they also were not Christian.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: colbe

etc were NEVER ever taught Christ or passed down from the Apostles.

The chain of succession was broken in the zeal to kill Arians.
There was war, and many fell victim to it, until all was left was the "orthodox" who were brought out of pagan temples so the church would have people who could at least read and write.
You should study some of your own church history and you will see who the saints of orthodoxy really were, they were not Arian, and they also were not Christian.

What???? "Arians" professed an early heresy, There is no break in succession and why speak of a break? Coming from a Protestant, you have removed yourself completely not just a "break" from Apostolic Succession, the teachings of the Apostles passed down. Bible Alone from Martin Luther is not a teaching passed down from the Apostles, etc, etc., etc. The heresies showed up circa 1517 and after....till this day. A new heresy, the pre-trib Rapture.

How in any way do you a Protestant speak of the first sixteen centuries of the faith before the split? You can't, all goes back to the faith, Roman Catholicism. Holy Scripture is a Catholic book. Our Lord is going to ask you to become
Roman Catholic Jim.

Dear people, here is the unbroken list of Popes in succession and the dates. Pope Francis isn't listed though, Francis would be the 266th Pope. God names leaders on the earth, like in the Old.

www.ewtn.com/holysee/Pontiff/popesall.asp


The Orthodox BEFORE their split form the Faith, all recognized Rome, the Holy Father as God's chosen authority.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: colbe

Jim, it would be good if you looked up the meaning of Schism and heresy in the dictionary.

It's just going to give you the version as defined by centuries of blood lust on the part of the Catholic church.
What you should do is consult a good New Testament Greek lexicon on those words as they are found in the Bible.

"blood lust"....

What can I say, who knows what this means. Its a protesting two word falsehood. All the miraculous, the major science tested in our time miracles of Christianity, ARE Roman Catholic. The Shroud, the Tilma of Guadalupe, Padre Pio bore the wounds of Christ for fifty years...are three examples.

Read history dear people, the testimonies of the thousands of miracles, a help, are a sign to bring people to the Faith by God.

Jerome compiled the first Bible, I am going with Him and so have you, you accept the New Testament Canon decided
by Damasus which Jerome then translated. Jerome's work and life are fascinating. Immature Protestants use a Catholic book, the Bible, proclaiming as if no one notices, it is their authority not the Faith, RC, who compiled the Bible.

originally posted by: colbe

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: colbe

etc were NEVER ever taught Christ or passed down from the Apostles.

The chain of succession was broken in the zeal to kill Arians.
There was war, and many fell victim to it, until all was left was the "orthodox" who were brought out of pagan temples so the church would have people who could at least read and write.
You should study some of your own church history and you will see who the saints of orthodoxy really were, they were not Arian, and they also were not Christian.

What???? "Arians" professed an early heresy, There is no break in succession and why speak of a break? Coming from a Protestant, you have removed yourself completely not just a "break" from Apostolic Succession, the teachings of the Apostles passed down. Bible Alone from Martin Luther is not a teaching passed down from the Apostles, etc, etc., etc. The heresies showed up circa 1517 and after....till this day. A new heresy, the pre-trib Rapture.

How in any way do you a Protestant speak of the first sixteen centuries of the faith before the split? You can't, all goes back to the faith, Roman Catholicism. Holy Scripture is a Catholic book. Our Lord is going to ask you to become
Roman Catholic Jim.

Dear people, here is the unbroken list of Popes in succession and the dates. Pope Francis isn't listed though, Francis would be the 266th Pope. God names leaders on the earth, like in the Old.

www.ewtn.com/holysee/Pontiff/popesall.asp


The Orthodox BEFORE their split form the Faith, all recognized Rome, the Holy Father as God's chosen authority.

Wonder why no comment to the list, the unbroken line of succession of Popes since Peter, the first Pope.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
You have to be dreaming, they did not find Peter under the Altar.

WAAAAY under the altar. Like 30 feet under in the grottoes of St. Peter's Basilica. The bones have not been definitively declared to be St. Peter. There really is no way to do that. But the Vatican says "the bones have been identified in a way that we can consider convincing." The age of the bones, as well as the condition of the tomb and the seals and symbols on it are what told the Vatican that it was probably St. Peter buried there.

NPR - Vatican Puts Bones of St. Peter on Display For First Time

a reply to: colbe

Jerome compiled the first Bible, I am going with Him and so have you . . .

He translated the already existing Bible into Latin to make the Vulgate, something I do not accept as the authentic Bible, but a sort of primitive translation that has some value for linguistic experts for figuring out the meanings of some obscure Greek words in the original.
I would go along with your assertion that Jerome was a Catholic, though at that time there was not the division of the Eastern church.
He was not well liked by many people in his day, being an advocate of self deprivation and self inflicted pain.

Additionally, his condemnation of Blaesilla's hedonistic lifestyle in Rome had led her to adopt ascetic practices, but it affected her health and worsened her physical weakness to the point that she died just four months after starting to follow his instructions; much of the Roman populace were outraged at Jerome for causing the premature death of such a lively young woman, and his insistence to Paula (her mother) that Blaesilla should not be mourned, and complaints that her grief was excessive, were seen as heartless, polarising Roman opinion against him.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: FlyersFan

Like 30 feet under in the grottoes of St. Peter's Basilica.

Like I mentioned earlier, the Vatican was built on a site that was formerly used as a training area for the Roman Army's horses, so was a big open space where they could run.
The point being, anything under the ground there would have been put there late, since it would have been virgin earth before the Vatican was built on the spot.
It isn't like there was a city there for hundreds of years on that spot, complete with catacombs and everything.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: mrphilosophias

Jesus Christ is our savior and the Cross is our salvation. If we die to our sins we share in the hope of rising to eternal life! Hail Mary! Blessed art thou among women! Please pray for us sinners!

Romans 6:2
By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
(2011 NIV)
It isn't to die to "our sins", but to die to sin, as if "sin" is your old slave master, and when you were released from that service, you just hang out because you enjoy being beaten.
The idea that Paul is making is how ridiculous that would be, so of course, being dead to that bondage, we live a free life where we can be real people as we should be.

"Eternal life" does not just refer to length of life but it is a quality of life that has significance and is not just something 'throw-away'.

thank you for the correction. I'm no rhetorician but I think it is a simple matter of semantics. I would rather not argue about this point.

a reply to: mrphilosophias

thank you for the correction. I'm no rhetorician but I think it is a simple matter of semantics. I would rather not argue about this point.

I'm not really trying to argue or correct you.
I'm just expounding on it a bit as to what Paul meant, since it may be hard to understand, being a notoriously difficult verse.
There is another version of the same sort of saying in Peter, so one version is not necessarily better than the other except Paul is better at keeping to a single subject, where Peter is all over the place.