Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

a reply to: Akragon

Eusebius uses your quote several times in his writing... he lived before the Arian controversies came to a full blown "problem" which eventually ended in your trinity becoming Orthodox doctrine because of coercion, duress, and even the death of ARIUS which was obviously murder... which is the same thing that happened to almost anyone who didn't side with the church of rome... death

Arius, in his time, was the leading Christian proponent of the Trinity.
That was why he was gone after by the proponents of the Imperial version of the Trinity, because the original version was according to the Bible, and what became known as the "orthodox" version, wasn't according to the Bible.
That had to do with the very core theme of Jesus being the only begotten son of the Father.
The orthodox version denies any begotting or any real fatherhood or real sonship.
Also the "orthodox" version denies the subjugation of Jesus, and invents the novel idea of being co-equals.
Arius would have none of that nonsense, so had to be done away with by the tyrannical version of Christianity that the Roman system demanded.

a reply to: mrphilosophias

He is the Paschal Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. The Seder, the day of atonement, the angel of death and salvation by blood on the wooden door post, the sacrifice of Issac and the ram of abraham, these are foreshadowing's of the salvation that comes through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God upon the altar of the Cross! Just as you eat the lamb and bitter herbs at passover Jesus said you must eat His flesh and drink His blood for He is the Bread of Life!

Jesus is briefly alluded to as our Passover,
1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
(2011 NIV)
Obviously Jesus is not literally a lamb, being human, so this has to be meant in a metaphorical sense.
The context is having sinners in the church, and how that is compared by Paul to having leaven that would be gotten rid of for Passover.
Jesus in this analogy represents an idea that we are now in a permanent state of Passover type behavior.
The Passover lamb was not a sin sacrifice but symbolizes being freed from slavery.
We carry out that theme by leaving behind those who love too much the slavery of sin.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

Eusebius uses your quote several times in his writing... he lived before the Arian controversies came to a full blown "problem" which eventually ended in your trinity becoming Orthodox doctrine because of coercion, duress, and even the death of ARIUS which was obviously murder... which is the same thing that happened to almost anyone who didn't side with the church of rome... death

Arius, in his time, was the leading Christian proponent of the Trinity.
That was why he was gone after by the proponents of the Imperial version of the Trinity, because the original version was according to the Bible, and what became known as the "orthodox" version, wasn't according to the Bible.
That had to do with the very core theme of Jesus being the only begotten son of the Father.
The orthodox version denies any begotting or any real fatherhood or real sonship.
Also the "orthodox" version denies the subjugation of Jesus, and invents the novel idea of being co-equals.
Arius would have none of that nonsense, so had to be done away with by the tyrannical version of Christianity that the Roman system demanded.

That might be true, you can definitely see a "trinity" in what we have from Arius... but the fact remains, a trinity can not be found in the teaching of the apostles... and it most definitely can not be found in the gospels...

I think Arius didn't want to go completely against the ideals of the orthodox church... but still wouldn't accept equality as they do... one can clearly see that it saddened him to go against the church, but he stayed true to what the gospels teach

a reply to: Akragon

I think Arius didn't want to go completely against the ideals of the orthodox church...

I think the supposed "orthodox" church was born at the death of Arius.
It basically put its own authority over the authority of Jesus himself.
It had to silence any voice of objection.
Tens of thousands followed Arius to the grave in the process of the victory of this counterfeit Christianity.

originally posted by: mrphilosophias

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: mrphilosophias
Why there should be any contention amongst the people of Israel and the Christian people is a peculiar thing.

contentions exist because the people of israel, at least the religious ones, are pure monotheists and abhor the very idea of gods beside God. Dont bother explaining the trinity to me because Jews oppose the very idea of a man being called God as the polytheistic christians believe. Christianity is the same as hinduism....both believe in multiple deities , and both believe in the idea that a man can be called ''god'', or that God can descend to earth as a man. In fact, some hindus I know are OPEN to the idea that Jesus was an ''incarnation'' of God ...not very different from the hindu belief that Krishna was a human incarnation of God. Just leave the real monotheism to Jews and Muslims and get rid of your infatuation with a perfectly monotheistic people who consider christianity as perverse paganism and curse Jesus as a false prophet.

Skorpion I will concede some points, but on technical grounds. Judeo-Christianity is a monotheistic faith. If by pantheon you mean hierarchies of His Creation (e.g. powers, principalities, thrones, dominions, etc) in the great chain of being, that there are angelic hosts, and if you mean by using the word "god" in the sense of supra-human entities. No Judeo-Christianity is not a Pantheon.

Yet Christ Himself, recalling the Psalmist, said that we are gods! Consider John 10. It is my opinion that this particular scripture offers another concession, and is an allusion to the fact that we are created in the image and likeness of our Creator who is the Most High Ever Living God, that we are called to an ineffable calling, holiness and paradise, an invitation to become members of the family of God, by the bride groom Jesus Christ, the Son of God, verily Emmanuel, God-Incarnate, and the visible Image of the invisible God.

The inconceivable awesomeness of Gods' Power is cause for fear and trembling, and this reverence of God, is the beginning of understanding, to quote King Solomons' wisdom. To consider this awesomeness in earthen vessel would be inconceivable but for the grace of God. If we believe in a traditional definition of God as a being All-Powerful, All-knowing, ever-present, eternal, omni-benevolent, and Creator we would not use the word "god", in lower case. By definition God is a Person, three in fact, hence the capitalization, and as such the word "god" as if it is equivocable to God is obfuscating. It seems counter intuitive that the idea of God, who is Perfect and infinite, could ever be reconciled to the idea that God took on mortal flesh. How could an infinite God be contained by mortal flesh, for instance. This is the sort of obstacle that keeps Moslems from accepting Christ. If we briefly reflect upon Gods' creative efficacy for a moment it should be clear that if God is All-Powerful, and Creator of All-Things, then it would be no problem for God to dwell among flesh, if that were His inclination. This is not to assume to know His thoughts, for the scriptures make clear that His thoughts are not our thoughts, that His ways are as far above our ways as the Highest Heavens above the Earth. For a Jewish, or Moslem, person to categorically dismiss the idea of God-Incarnate not only runs counter to their sacred scriptures, laws, and prophecies, but it is an error in thinking. If God wanted to Incarnate who is to stop Him?

The questions inevitably arise, if God (hypothetical for you agnostics) were to become Man what would He be like? What would we expect from Him? What would He expect from us? I think you will find these answers in Jesus Christ (the messiah! consider it seriously), and in His Word.

When you consider the Gospels of Christ, that He is the Son of God, that He did dwell amongst men, and born of a virgin to fulfill the prophecies, that He was so good to tell us these things before they came to pass, so we could wait in hope of His faithfulness, and not only all these things, but that He did it in an act of inconceivable love, compassion, and mercy to rescue us from the mistake we made in Eden, to save us from death, sin, and suffering, and at cost of His precious blood. Do you believe? Do you have faith like Abraham? In Christ we are forgiven, for in Christ Jesus the requirements of the law, the prophecies, and the Word are fulfilled. If we win we will surely die, but He didn't create us for death. God is good, not a tyrant! Yes His Justice is perfect and fierce, but so is His mercy, compassion, faithfulness, and kindness.



Text He is risen! By the cross of Christ we are saved! Jesus is the unblemished paschal lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He is the Perfect atoning sacrifice. Jesus is the Messiah that the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob promised, and I hope you believe. Be diligent about these things, and search out the scriptures yourself.

What an awesome God is He! His Love endures forever!

Our Lord "REDEEMED" mankind by His suffering tortured death on the Cross. Our redemption is NOT our justification. Our Lord opened Heaven at Calvary which only God can do. Our justification is life long with the help of God's grace.

The above heresy underlined is known as the "imputation heresy" of Jesus did it all on the Cross, you're in, you're saved! It came from believing another lie, that of men are NOT capable of good, Martin Luther's "mankind is completely depraved" heresy.

Don't believe this, we have a fallen nature and we are capable of doing good. Both.
.
...so...this later heresy tells you it is Our perfect Lord who "imputes" His perfect righteousness and perfect sacrifice of the Cross onto you a miserable sinner. You are saved. This is heresy, a lie, not of God.

And to share about the 2nd sentence. Our non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters in Christ recognize, they say it ~ ~

"Jesus is the unblemished paschal Lamb who takes away the sins of the world."

No argument, so they must come higher in the New Covenant. I ask, what did they do with the Passover sacrificed Lamb in the Old Covenant? They CONSUMED it. Far, far greater....

In the New Covenant we CONSUME God Himself in the most Holy Eucharist! This is God's supernatural plan, that
we receive Him, His risen, body, blood, soul and divinity into our person. You have to think supernaturally not
in a human cannibalism way of thinking. Jesus said it Himself when some protested, He said this is "spirit and
life." Every time Our Lord uses the word "spirit" in the Gospel, He is speaking supernaturally. God can do anything, the most Holy Eucharist is supernatural.

Say yes in the coming divine gift of the "awakening", the Warning. God wants us all to believe the same, so remember.

Alleluia!!!


God bless you mrphil,

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

I think Arius didn't want to go completely against the ideals of the orthodox church...

I think the supposed "orthodox" church was born at the death of Arius.
It basically put its own authority over the authority of Jesus himself.
It had to silence any voice of objection. Tens of thousands followed Arius to the grave in the process of the victory of this counterfeit Christianity.

It is time to admit to the fact God names special men of authority on earth to lead. You see in the Old and in the New Covenant. We're in the New, the Pope in succession, like the first Pope Peter the Apostle, is God's chosen authority on earth. The Pope is a sinner like all of us except he has a special gift from God, He cannot error on Christ's teachings.

The teachings of Roman Catholicism are the teachings of Christ. The Pope has the charism to be correct on faith
and morals. Pope Paul the VI proved this in modern times, going against the world, sticking to God's truth, the spiirituak fact besides the physical negative, contraception is an intrinsic evil. We see the fruit of the world accepting this grave sin. Pope Paul VI predicted, hardly any next generation, women would be used, contraception is the ruin of the family, etc and the worst, abortion is protected by law!!

You are your own pope Jim...speak of "Tens of thousands", all with a small "p" popes, you are all part of "counterfeit Christianity", Protestantism.

Where is your God given authority Jim? By whose authority do you believe what you do? Who in Protestantism has it right? You already accept the God given authority of the Roman Catholic Church, she, the Holy Father, Pope Damasus first decided the Canon of the New Testament. Go further and accept all Catholicism teaches. Look how crazily divided Protestantism is...

If you don't like a particular Protestant sect, the pastor's private judgment (a heresy whose fruit is error and division) of Christ's teachings in the written Word only, you leave to find another pastor and his church or begin a group of your own. This is not of God. You have the traditional break aways, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. Next comes the denominations and their splits, more splits, the new word -non-denomination and now who can imagine, there are "home churches!"

Part of the end of times, this end of the 6th Day, God is going to show the world, each person personally at the "awakening", Roman Catholicism is the faith, He wants everyone, non-Christians too, to become Roman Catholic. The remnant is Roman Catholic. Why in the world would anyone remain part of Protestantism? Well, it is easier, you get to decide and so much of the Truth is denied, ignored. Christ said..."do all I command of you."

Jesus wants all of humanity to accept His presence in the most Holy Eucharist. This is the summit. Remember everyone, the "abomination of desolation" prophesied in the book of Daniel happens when the anti-Christ tries to abolish the most Holy Eucharist. Why would the anti-Christ do this if the Eucharist is NOT true?


God bless you jim and anyone posting or reading this thread,

Sorry, a correction, I meant to type the letter L.

"Pope Paul the VI proved this in modern times, going against the world, sticking to God's truth, the spirituak fact besides the physical negative, contraception is an intrinsic evil."

"spiritual"...

originally posted by: colbe
Sorry, a correction, I meant to type the letter L.

"Pope Paul the VI proved this in modern times, going against the world, sticking to God's truth, the spirituak fact besides the physical negative, contraception is an intrinsic evil."

"spiritual"...

a reply to: colbe

You are your own pope Jim...speak of "Tens of thousands", all with a small "p" popes, you are all part of "counterfeit Christianity", Protestantism.

Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will remain".
That means we don't need popes to tell us what Jesus said.
The popes are the antichrist by their own admission.

Where is your God given authority Jim? By whose authority do you believe what you do?

The popes don't have any.
The "apostolic succession is a fraud.
It was broken in the church's zeal to kill "heretics" in the arianism wars, killing anyone who could have laid legitimate claim to it, and replacing the fallen clergy with pagan trained priests.
"Orthodoxy" finally won out after hundreds of years of war, but at the cost of the demise of anyone who could have passed down any special knowledge.
It was all for power, which greedy men were all too eager to exchange for real spiritual knowledge.

. . . there are "home churches!"

If you knew the history of Christianity, you would know that this was exactly how it was when Paul was writing letters to the churches.
We are united under one head, Jesus. That is a spiritual thing. In the material, physical world, the church is fragmented into individual congregations.

Remember everyone, the "abomination of desolation" prophesied in the book of Daniel happens when the anti-Christ tries to abolish the most Holy Eucharist.

That was fulfilled as Jesus said, in that generation, when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

a reply to: colbe

The above heresy underlined is known as the "imputation heresy" of Jesus did it all on the Cross, you're in, you're saved! It came from believing another lie, that of men are NOT capable of good, Martin Luther's "mankind is completely depraved" heresy.

Martin Luther believed in 'the bondage of the will'.
Calvin believed in 'total depravity'.

There is a sort of indirect imputation, which is not an individually assigned benefit but something the entire world benefits from.
Jesus was a human being, having been born of a woman, but turned out to be the best example of one, concerning sin.
The very fact that Jesus exists, does something for all of us, as humans, in the general esteem of God.
We being believers and full of the holy spirit, may not necessarily commit deadly sins, but being humans we are fallible and constantly commit "less damning" sins, only in that they don't immediately take us down 'for the sake of Jesus', meaning that they are the result of our humanness as being made from sinful flesh, and that is now OK because Jesus was a human too, and was accepted by God, being resurrected from the grave, and taken up to Heaven to abide with God in a glorified body.

Jesus Christ is our savior and the Cross is our salvation. If we die to our sins we share in the hope of rising to eternal life! Hail Mary! Blessed art thou among women! Please pray for us sinners!

a reply to: mrphilosophias

Jesus Christ is our savior and the Cross is our salvation. If we die to our sins we share in the hope of rising to eternal life! Hail Mary! Blessed art thou among women! Please pray for us sinners!

Romans 6:2
By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
(2011 NIV)
It isn't to die to "our sins", but to die to sin, as if "sin" is your old slave master, and when you were released from that service, you just hang out because you enjoy being beaten.
The idea that Paul is making is how ridiculous that would be, so of course, being dead to that bondage, we live a free life where we can be real people as we should be.

"Eternal life" does not just refer to length of life but it is a quality of life that has significance and is not just something 'throw-away'.