The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8

a reply to: Rob48

Plus, of course, the fact that Frank Borman was invited to Star City in 1969, where he met with Kamanin and several cosmonauts, ought to clue you in to the fact that the Russians knew this was genuine!

No, no, no, no, no, no.

I know that Frank Borman was in Star City one month before Apollo 11. Who ordered Frank Borman to Star City????????

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
You mean invited?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
You mean invited?

Who invited who? And who ordered who? Do you have some source material to back up? All we have are some newspaper clips...

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

All we have are some newspaper clips...

What do you have?

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
How could an American astronaut go on a tour of the Russian space centre, with lavish receptions along the way, at the height of the Cold War, if he hadn't been invited?

You can't order somebody to do that unilaterally.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

Maybe I am just a retarded and self deluded Apollo Hoax Believer, a troll, or whatever the latest epithet is.

I don't think you're retarded.

The first round is on me.

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
How could an American astronaut go on a tour of the Russian space centre, with lavish receptions along the way, at the height of the Cold War, if he hadn't been invited?

You can't order somebody to do that unilaterally.

I'm just asking, because I am IGNORANT, who ordered Frank Borman to Russian or who invited him to visit Star City? Is that a difficult question or are you going to continue avoiding it?

Was Deke Slayton involved? Where there other people from the Nixon administration involved? Haldeman, Ehrlichman?

Frank Borman doesn't go to Russia without military orders. Who gave the order?

The article says that Borman's visit to Star City was a "diplomatic good will mission". So who ordered it? Who was president in the July of 1969? The Summer of Love... The Summer of Charles Manson... the Summer of Apollo????????

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

who ordered Frank Borman to Russian or who invited him to visit Star City?

The obvious answer to the second part is the Kremlin.
The not so obvious question to the first part is "are you still beating your wife?"

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

All we have are some newspaper clips...

What do you have?

A newspaper clip!

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

who ordered Frank Borman to Russian or who invited him to visit Star City?

The obvious answer to the second part is the Kremlin.
The not so obvious question to the first part is "are you still beating your wife?"

There is no comparison in your analysis is based only on ridicule. You have not answered the question of Who Ordered Frank Borman to Russia... you have not answered the question of Who Invited Frank Borman to Russia in June of 1969?

I quote you now ...

"are you still beating your wife?"

Are you drunk? just trying to score points with your followers? or what? I am have spent the last 3 hours really taking drugs and getting intoxicated. Still, I can make an argument better than you can.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

You have not answered the question of Who Ordered Frank Borman to Russia

You assume someone did.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

You have not answered the question of Who Ordered Frank Borman to Russia

You assume someone did.

So, Frank Borman decided by himself to go to Russia one month before Apollo 11? Help me out Phage, I'm having trouble understanding your viewpoint...!

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
I think he is saying that the Russian government invited Borman to Russia. That would make sense, would it not?

Here is what Alexei Leonov had to say about that:

Frank Borman came here some time after the flight. Crowds surrounded his hotel every day. The government held a great reception for him, there was a press conference. Our people greeted Frank Borman just like they had greeted Gagarin. It was pure joy!

Here is what he had to say about the Russians duplicating, or trumping, Apollo 8:

We could have orbited the Moon before Frank Borman. All the tests were going great. We were asking to go on L-6. “No, let's do more tests.” Korolev had died, and Vasily Mishin took over. He was an excellent engineer, but he didn't have Korolev's strong leadership skills.

Our engineers didn't like the risk. So they launched the sixth unmanned craft, which landed 600 meters away from the launch. Precision, all systems worked perfect, but it was unmanned. This was the most painful thing. We had all the chances to orbit the moon before Frank Borman did it.

(I must admit I am a bit puzzled by this part. If he is referring to Zond 6, it certainly didn't work "perfect" - the capsule depressurised before re-entry and the parachute malfunctioned.)

And here is what he has to say about people who think Apollo was a fake:

That is ignorance, total ignorance on the part of those who say so. These people don't know anything about technology. Or they just seek popularity.

This is from an interview with the Russian TV station RT.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
Borman was invited and he accepted.
Ordered? That's your interpretation.

From the horse's mouth:

"...I was sent over to Russia by Mr. Nixon with the goal to starting the process that led to the Apollo-Soyuz Program..."

Interview with Borman:

www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/oral_histories/BormanF/Bormanff_4-13-99.htm





It was a general goodwill mission. Here's a newspaper clipping:

news.google.com...,1221216

originally posted by: mrwiffler
From the horse's mouth:

"...I was sent over to Russia by Mr. Nixon with the goal to starting the process that led to the Apollo-Soyuz Program..."

Well yes, obviously the invitation from the Russian government would go via the US government. They wouldn't just call Borman up directly. The Russians invited Borman to go, and Nixon ordered him to accept the invitation.

All of which is semantics, and I am not sure what the relevance is here. The Russians invited Borman to go to Russia, and they invited him to tour Star City.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: AgentSmith
What happened in this thread? I don't know really to be absolutely honest.

I also have no idea what happened to this thread. SayonaraJupiter asked a fairly simple question, and we answered to the best of our knowledge. But now the thread is full of stuff like astronaut's visit to Russia, who was heading the Soviet space program, and lots of other seemingly unrelated stuff.

I'll bite - why didn't the Soviets duplicate Apollo 8? I have a feeling SayonaraJupiter already knows the answer, and is simply leading us to it through a variety of suggestions and historical insights. Right?

If human spaceflight beyond the Van Allen belts is impossible, why were the Russians building and testing N-1? Were they hoping to fake their own Moon landing program? (because you need a working heavy-lift rocket to make it look like you're sending people up there)

So, 9 pages for a seemingly simple question "why didn't Soviets duplicate Apollo 8?" and this thread is completely lost on me. What exactly are we discussing here?

a reply to: Rob48

All of which is semantics, and I am not sure what the relevance is here. The Russians invited Borman to go to Russia, and they invited him to tour Star City.

I agree. I don't really know why I entered into this debate that isn't a debate...Russians invited him, Yanks sent him...yep, big deal.

originally posted by: wildespace
I'll bite - why didn't the Soviets duplicate Apollo 8? I have a feeling SayonaraJupiter already knows the answer, and is simply leading us to it through a variety of suggestions and historical insights. Right?

That was part of the plan, yes. Another part of the plan was to try to keep the discussion away from hoax/no-hoax arguments.. which everyone has done a good job of (mostly).

If human spaceflight beyond the Van Allen belts is impossible, why were the Russians building and testing N-1? Were they hoping to fake their own Moon landing program? (because you need a working heavy-lift rocket to make it look like you're sending people up there)

That would make a good conspiracy theory. Can we ever know the true motivations for the N-1? The Soviets were so secretive, even the Soviet diary (reports) provided in this thread by Rob48 convey a certain amount of political butt kissing to the Soviet Union.. "It is possible that in the future when the entire planet falls to communism , people will fly into space on such ships. But nowadays you can not forget about the bitter struggle between two opposing ideologies." Really some of these diary/reports should be taken with a grain of salt, or a grain of lunar regolith..

So, 9 pages for a seemingly simple question "why didn't Soviets duplicate Apollo 8?" and this thread is completely lost on me. What exactly are we discussing here?

It has been a fairly zesty thread. Lot's of interesting material to look at. While Frank Borman was at Star City, NASA had a monkey in space orbit. What eventually happened to that monkey?