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originally posted by: wildespace I honestly don't see what the fuss is all about concerning Apollo 8.
I think the basic problem SJ has with Apollo 8 is that is the elephant in the room that gets in the way of his elaborate theory that the whole manned moon programme was a hoax orchestrated by Richard Nixon.
Apollo 8 is a thorn in his side and he wants to discredit it and scrub it from the history books.
originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
A8 still fits very well in my larger theory. This thread was to be focussed on some back & forth discussion regarding our knowledge of why the Russians never copied A8. I understood all of your CIA talking points before you even posted them!
No, quite the opposite. Von Braun's moon plan (1955) and the ESA/ROSCOSMOS moon plan (2006) are pretty much identical. I'd like the history books to show that a Saturn V or N-1 (CIA big rocket theory) is not necessary to demonstrate a manned lunar orbit mission... a landing is not required.
Still does not change the fact that the whole mission goal was to land (not just orbit) a person on the moon.
Still does not change the fact that the Russians never duplicated Apollo 8 and no space agency (including the NASA) has been outside LEO in 42 years.
Sure there is. You can always make a more efficient weapon of mass destruction.
There is no reason to do it again once you have the first 6 explosions, right?
Sure they could, if they had a reason to.
The Russians kept pace in nukes, subs, missiles, and everything in space. But Russians they can't get out of low earth orbit?
Apollo 8 was not a moon landing mission.
They all seem to be holding back from the moon for some reason. The propaganda value would be enormous and worth every penny/ruble/rupee spent on it.
Do you know of any Russian documents that came out after glasnost that can confirm Apollo 8?
originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter
And the US program was very open. Interesting contrast.
Thousands of images and documents. All readily available.
Speaking of documents. Do you know of any Russian documents that came out after glasnost that can confirm Apollo 8?
What sort of documents do you want? Russian newspapers back in 1968 confirmed the reality of the flight and even offered grudging congratulations, of sorts.
I was thinking that there could be some Soviet era government documents, from Dec 1968, that would serve as the basis for your conclusions. You provided one newspaper article written by a westerner "Edmund Stevens" and a Kamanin diary entry published in the 1990's.
Just ... ( 19:15 ) to my dacha call from the Gagarin Center and reported that Apollo 8 made a safe landing in the Pacific Ocean near Christmas Island .
So true : three American astronauts - Frank Borman, James Lovell and William Anders - the first of the men circled the moon and returned to Earth . USA won a historic victory in the cosmos - the flight will take its rightful place next to Gagarin's flight . All of America watched on television for the splashdown of Apollo 8 in the ocean . When the 6 -ton spacecraft entered the dense layers of the atmosphere, with the radio command center in Houston ( Texas ) interrupted, there were three tense minutes to wait before the voice of Lovell : "We are really in good condition , although flying , like a fireball ! "
Before the Apollo 8 flight Americans never returned their ships from the area of the Moon to the Earth , and that's also the first manned mission to the moon , they beat us . This once again confirms the leading role of a spacecraft within the implementation of such experiments. Yes, machines can be hundreds of times more perfect person, but they will never completely replace it . A person can not be a slave to "smart" machines , he must always remain their master.
By and large, our designers seem to be right in their quest to create a fully automated manned spacecraft. It is possible that in the future when the entire planet falls to communism , people will fly into space on such ships. But nowadays you can not forget about the bitter struggle between two opposing ideologies. After our first success in space, we proudly stated : "Socialism - the best launching pad for space flight! " So it was, and I would like to so continue. But our great leaders have forgotten the huge influence of space flight (especially such as flying our first Vostok and the American Apollo 8) on the minds of millions of people and underestimated the possibility of "decaying capitalism", which, as shown by recent developments in space, is capable of much more.
Vershinin was yesterday at a meeting of the defence industry, where everyone understood the same "topical" issue : "How to respond to he Americans? " For a successful flight of three American astronauts to the Moon, our leaders decided to respond ... with an unmanned lunar flight. They cannot grasp a most simple idea : an automatic flight is not a response to a manned mission to Apollo 8 ... Only landing men on the moon and a successful return to Earth would be a fitting response triumph Apollo 8. But we are not prepared for the expedition to the moon. At best, we will be ready for it in 2-3 years.
Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
Can we really believe that the Edmund Stevens piece was entirely accurate?
Author: B. Petrov
ON THE FLIGHT OF APOLLO 8. (By Academician B. Petrov. Pravda, Dec. 30, p. 4. 1,300 words)
The flight of the American spaceship Apollo 8 with three cosmonauts aboard has come to a successful conclusion. In these days Soviet people, like the people of all countries, followed with great attention the voyage of the piloted craft carrying F. Borman, J. Lovell and W. Anders as it flew around the moon and landed in the Pacific Ocean after a six-day space journey. ...
The tasks of the exploration of outer space are solved both with the aid of automatic means — artificial satellites and spacecraft such as probes and automatic stations — and with the aid of piloted spaceships. The solution of a great many scientific tasks can be entrusted to automatic devices. After all, the possibilities of modern automatic installations are extremely great and are growing year by year. This judgment can be made solely on the basis of the results of the very difficult experiment that was carried out by Soviet scientists in launching the automatic station Venera-4, which, after flying more than 350,000,000 km., made a smooth descent through the atmosphere of Venus and transmitted to earth many new data about this mysterious planet. There are also tasks in the conquest of outer space in which the participation of man is necessary and justified. However, manned flight through outer space is in itself a great achievement of our time.
The exploration of the moon was also begun by automatic stations. The first Soviet automatic stations conducted a number of investigations in near-lunar space and photographed the hidden side of the moon; then the more detailed study of both near-lunar space and the moon itself began. After this the American Ranger station obtained many detailed photographs of the lunar surface. The next major step was the soft landing on the moon by the automatic station Luna-9 ...
This thread is actually a good example of why we should not have a dedicated history forum on ATS. It's because some people believe history is concrete while some others are still dedicated to using jack hammers on a nice piece of concrete.