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The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8

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posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 02:14 AM
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originally posted by: wildespace

I had never heard of this record before, which probably shows that such altitude records in space don't have that massive propaganda effect as SJ wants us to believe.


The quote from Shorty Powers says it all. Records are made to be broken. Pete Conrad's Gemini XI made ten new records in September of 1966. But the Russians stopped going up in March 1965.

If the Russians stopped going up in 1965 there is not much of a race going on here.... but the Americans racing against the clock, trying to beat JFK's deadline. The Russians are not under any obligation to beat that deadline. They stayed low.





posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 03:07 AM
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I wonder who were the Gemini 11 mission officials who worried about 'dangerous exposure' to the Van Allen Radiation belts?



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 03:24 AM
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Here is Chris Kraft indicating that the Gemini XI altitude record will be followed by altitudes between 5,000 and 10,000 miles while orbiting the earth, before going to the moon.

This tells us something about what Chris Kraft thinks about altitude records. He was promoting them in the media.


news.google.com...
edit on 6/11/2014 by SayonaraJupiter because: add pic for further ATS peer review

edit on 6/11/2014 by SayonaraJupiter because: fix



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 05:15 AM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
I wonder who were the Gemini 11 mission officials who worried about 'dangerous exposure' to the Van Allen Radiation belts?




Did you miss the part in quote marks? The part that says "Sounds like it's safer up there than a chest X-ray"?


Perhaps rather than reading snippets from the Milwaukee Journal, you might go back to the original source. Does American school not teach about primary and secondary sources of evidence? I was learning about that in history GCSE when I was 14.

history.nasa.gov...


Radiation dosage at high altitude had caused some premission concern. The Van Allen belts (two doughnut-shaped radiation zones around Earth, named for James A. Van Allen, State University of [365] Iowa physicist) are not constant about the planet, being denser in some regions than others. High apogee orbits for Gemini XI were therefore planned to take place over Australia, because the level there is comparatively low. Now Conrad reported to Carnarvon, ". . . our dosimeter reads .3 rads per hour up here." Gordon amended this, saying, "Houston, radiation is revised to .2 rads per hour." To which Bean replied, "Sounds like it's safer up there than a chest x-ray." Conrad later stated that "we got less radiation in our two 850-[nautical] mile [1,570-kilometer] orbits than the X crew got in their longer period of time at 450 [nautical] miles [830 kilometers]."


Gemini 11 spent about three hours in its high-apogee orbit. Even if we take the higher initial reading of 300 millirads per hour, that is still less than 1 rad exposure. Take the 200 millirad reading and that is less than a chest CT scan, or two barium enemas.



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 01:41 PM
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originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
I wonder who were the Gemini 11 mission officials who worried about 'dangerous exposure' to the Van Allen Radiation belts?




Did you miss the part in quote marks? The part that says "Sounds like it's safer up there than a chest X-ray"?


Perhaps rather than reading snippets from the Milwaukee Journal, you might go back to the original source. Does American school not teach about primary and secondary sources of evidence? I was learning about that in history GCSE when I was 14.

history.nasa.gov...


Radiation dosage at high altitude had caused some premission concern. The Van Allen belts (two doughnut-shaped radiation zones around Earth, named for James A. Van Allen, State University of [365] Iowa physicist) are not constant about the planet, being denser in some regions than others. High apogee orbits for Gemini XI were therefore planned to take place over Australia, because the level there is comparatively low. Now Conrad reported to Carnarvon, ". . . our dosimeter reads .3 rads per hour up here." Gordon amended this, saying, "Houston, radiation is revised to .2 rads per hour." To which Bean replied, "Sounds like it's safer up there than a chest x-ray." Conrad later stated that "we got less radiation in our two 850-[nautical] mile [1,570-kilometer] orbits than the X crew got in their longer period of time at 450 [nautical] miles [830 kilometers]."


Gemini 11 spent about three hours in its high-apogee orbit. Even if we take the higher initial reading of 300 millirads per hour, that is still less than 1 rad exposure. Take the 200 millirad reading and that is less than a chest CT scan, or two barium enemas.


Calm down Rob48. You are acting like a 14 year old who just got his GSCE. And what's all the sudden with insulting the American school system?? Quoting the America.gov again??

I know all about John Young's chest X-ray comment. But two posts before I was asking ...

" I wonder who were the Gemini 11 mission officials who worried about 'dangerous exposure' to the Van Allen Radiation belts?"

That means there were people on the ground in mission control talking to journalists and they expressed worry bout 'dangerous radiation' exposure. Who were these people, Rob48??



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 01:50 PM
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Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):




"Although orbiting at a higher altitude, the Gemin 11 crew will get less radiation than a three-day mission at a 185 mile orbit...when American astronauts rocket to the moon, they will have to pierce high energy portions of the belt. But project scientists say the spacemen will pass through with such speed - and with proper shielding - they won't be harmed"


I take it you've abandoned your insistence on .gov sources now?



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 02:04 PM
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originally posted by: onebigmonkey
Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):




"Although orbiting at a higher altitude, the Gemin 11 crew will get less radiation than a three-day mission at a 185 mile orbit...when American astronauts rocket to the moon, they will have to pierce high energy portions of the belt. But project scientists say the spacemen will pass through with such speed - and with proper shielding - they won't be harmed"


I take it you've abandoned your insistence on .gov sources now?


Your buddy unskillfully avoided the investigatory question. He even sprinkled his response with some insults to distract us all away from it. Of course I read the entire article.

" Who were the Gemini 11 mission officials who worried about 'dangerous exposure' to the Van Allen Radiation belts?"

There were people on the ground in mission control talking to journalists and they expressed worry about 'dangerous radiation' exposure. Who were these people, OBM?? Will the America.gov sources identify them or do we have to dig deeper?



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 02:07 PM
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originally posted by: onebigmonkey
Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):



Kraft told us to expect 5,000 and 10,000 mile earth orbits before a trip to the moon.



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):



Kraft told us to expect 5,000 and 10,000 mile earth orbits before a trip to the moon.



So what? Zemeckis told us to expect hoverboards by next year. Predictions of the future aren't always accurate. Priorities change.



"Who were the Gemini 11 mission officials who worried about 'dangerous exposure' to the Van Allen Radiation belts?"

There were people on the ground in mission control talking to journalists and they expressed worry about 'dangerous radiation' exposure. Who were these people, OBM?? Will the America.gov sources identify them or do we have to dig deeper?


Does it matter who exactly it was? There was a mission review board which consisted of James Elms, George Mueller, Edgar Cortright, Vincent Huston and Charles Mathews. So quite probably some or all of the above. Do you think people keep an exact record of who says what in mission planning meetings, or do you think that everybody recognises the issues and makes plans accordingly?

You mention these "concerns" like they are some big problem. They're not. Of course the planners wanted to keep an eye on the radiation, hence the dose meters being checked carefully. But given that Gemini 10 had encountered far lower radiation levels than expected, it clearly wasn't a major worry.

And rightly so, given that Gemini XI did not experience dangerous levels of radiation.



ntrs.nasa.gov...
edit on 11-6-2014 by Rob48 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 04:18 PM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):



Kraft told us to expect 5,000 and 10,000 mile earth orbits before a trip to the moon.



Your implication was that Kraft was aiming specifically at an altitude record. Kraft makes no such claim in that report. As events turned out, no such apogee figures were attained by manned Apollo earth orbit missions. Apollo 6 & 4 did reach those levels and more, but they were unmanned.




There were people on the ground in mission control talking to journalists and they expressed worry about 'dangerous radiation' exposure. Who were these people, OBM?? Will the America.gov sources identify them or do we have to dig deeper?


You're basing your argument on unattributed newspaper reports and then demanding other people find out who the source was? Not good enough.

Why don't you tell us? Why don't you put that suggestion in some context? Why don't you then tell us how their fears were allayed and by whom? Maybe it was someone who knew what they were talking about. If you want to know the answers then maybe it's up to you to find them.



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 01:38 AM
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originally posted by: onebigmonkey

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):



Kraft told us to expect 5,000 and 10,000 mile earth orbits before a trip to the moon.



Your implication was that Kraft was aiming specifically at an altitude record. Kraft makes no such claim in that report. As events turned out, no such apogee figures were attained by manned Apollo earth orbit missions. Apollo 6 & 4 did reach those levels and more, but they were unmanned.



I quote the article :

"During the three-man Apollo flights before the moon trip, astronauts will attain altitudes between 5,000 and 10,000 miles while orbiting earth, said Christopher C. Kraft Jr., assistant director for flight operations at the spaceflight center."

Chris Kraft was has been with NACA before it was NASA.. This guy knows the ins and outs. This guy is the ADFO for Gemini he is quite high up in the planning and he would know about future missions.

What mission was Chris Kraft thinking about when he said astronauts will attain altitudes between 5,000 and 10,000 miles in earth orbit?

He's not talking about unmanned Apollo tests.



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 01:38 AM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):




"Although orbiting at a higher altitude, the Gemin 11 crew will get less radiation than a three-day mission at a 185 mile orbit...when American astronauts rocket to the moon, they will have to pierce high energy portions of the belt. But project scientists say the spacemen will pass through with such speed - and with proper shielding - they won't be harmed"


I take it you've abandoned your insistence on .gov sources now?


Your buddy unskillfully avoided the investigatory question. He even sprinkled his response with some insults to distract us all away from it. Of course I read the entire article.

" Who were the Gemini 11 mission officials who worried about 'dangerous exposure' to the Van Allen Radiation belts?"

There were people on the ground in mission control talking to journalists and they expressed worry about 'dangerous radiation' exposure. Who were these people, OBM?? Will the America.gov sources identify them or do we have to dig deeper?


some people and doctors also express concern about dangerous exposures to chest x-rays..

so what would you define as dangerous? whats your understanding of the VA belts?? is it more than the scientists who have been studying it?

its also still very dangerous to visit chernobyl.. yet the topgear presenters drove through it earlier this year..



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 01:44 AM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: onebigmonkey

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
Maybe you should have read the rest of the article you posted that quoted Chris Kraft (who seemed to me to be more stating facts than claiming records):



Kraft told us to expect 5,000 and 10,000 mile earth orbits before a trip to the moon.



Your implication was that Kraft was aiming specifically at an altitude record. Kraft makes no such claim in that report. As events turned out, no such apogee figures were attained by manned Apollo earth orbit missions. Apollo 6 & 4 did reach those levels and more, but they were unmanned.



I quote the article :

"During the three-man Apollo flights before the moon trip, astronauts will attain altitudes between 5,000 and 10,000 miles while orbiting earth, said Christopher C. Kraft Jr., assistant director for flight operations at the spaceflight center."

Chris Kraft was has been with NACA before it was NASA.. This guy knows the ins and outs. This guy is the ADFO for Gemini he is quite high up in the planning and he would know about future missions.

What mission was Chris Kraft thinking about when he said astronauts will attain altitudes between 5,000 and 10,000 miles in earth orbit?

He's not talking about unmanned Apollo tests.


why dont you research it yourself?? what was the original plan for apollo 9???

now how about we look at the articles you posted so far?


news.google.com...
Explorer 1, 3, 4, 7 and 12 and Pioneer satellites 1 and 3 have told scientists the Van Allen belt generally extends from 400 to 40,000 miles above earth's surface


gemini 11 went to the same spot as explorer 1 went through..

so if chris kraft knows the ins and outs of the missions he would be aware of the ins and outs of the radiation levels recorded from the explorer and pioneer satellites..

why would chris kraft have plans to have astronauts orbit 5000miles if he knew it was impossible?



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 02:28 AM
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a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

I can read. Where specifically does he state that they are trying to achieve an altitude record, as opposed to stating a fact?

It is a fact that no Earth orbit missions actually achieved those levels of apogee. If you want to know which ones Kraft believed would be doing so, there's this thing called the internet.



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 03:32 AM
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a reply to: choos


why would chris kraft have plans to have astronauts orbit 5000miles if he knew it was impossible?


Why would Chris Kraft suggest that a manned mission would take place 5,000 to 10,000 miles orbit altitude? He must have known about such a mission plan when he suggested it to the media.

Why would a newspaper publish a lie? Why would Chris Kraft refer to a mission that never took place? You should go back and look at those old newspaper clips. There is a huge lot of history there and you won't find it on wikipedia or on nasa.gov.



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 03:39 AM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: choos


why would chris kraft have plans to have astronauts orbit 5000miles if he knew it was impossible?


Why would Chris Kraft suggest that a manned mission would take place 5,000 to 10,000 miles orbit altitude? He must have known about such a mission plan when he suggested it to the media.

Why would a newspaper publish a lie? Why would Chris Kraft refer to a mission that never took place? You should go back and look at those old newspaper clips. There is a huge lot of history there and you won't find it on wikipedia or on nasa.gov.



i told you to research it yourself.. i even gave you a hint.. what was the original plan for apollo 9?



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 04:14 AM
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originally posted by: choos

i told you to research it yourself.. i even gave you a hint.. what was the original plan for apollo 9?


Research on Apollo 9.

Perigee 189.5 kilometers (117.7 mi)
Apogee 192.4 kilometers (119.6 mi)

That's not even close to 5,000 miles choos.



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 04:40 AM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: choos

i told you to research it yourself.. i even gave you a hint.. what was the original plan for apollo 9?


Research on Apollo 9.

Perigee 189.5 kilometers (117.7 mi)
Apogee 192.4 kilometers (119.6 mi)

That's not even close to 5,000 miles choos.


Deliberately ignoring the question does not help your argument.

Choos asked "what was the original plan for Apollo 9?, not "what did Apollo 9 actually do?"

As you know, the Apollo mission plans changed quite a lot. They had to in order to meet the 1969 deadline, because the LM hardware wasn't ready.

Apollo 9 was originally going to be an "E mission", crewed by Borman, Collins and Anders, which would have been a high-altitude Earth orbit.



Source: Apollo: The Lost and Forgotten Missions by David Shayler.


As summarised on Wikipedia:


However, continued LM production problems meant that the D mission would not be able to fly until the spring of 1969, so NASA officials created another mission for Apollo 8 using the Saturn V to launch only the CSM on the first manned flight to orbit the Moon, and the E mission was cancelled as unnecessary. Since McDivitt's crew had trained for the first LM mission, and he expressed the personal desire to fly it, the Borman and McDivitt crews were swapped, and the D mission became Apollo 9.


Do you "get it" now? When somebody makes a prediction that turns out because of future events not to be accurate, that is not a "lie". Things change. When Kraft gave that quote in 1966, that was indeed the plan. The plan changed.



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 05:16 AM
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Ah, I see now that I must correct my earlier statement that "there's no point to going thousands of km up". There is a point if you have a working heavy lift rocket and other hardware for manned Moon landings (the ultimate goal, which everything else serves as a preparation for). The Russians failed at the first step, a heavy lift rocket. For them, putting a human 4000 miles up would have served no propaganda or practical purpose while the Americans were going to the Moon.



posted on Jun, 12 2014 @ 05:55 AM
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originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: choos

i told you to research it yourself.. i even gave you a hint.. what was the original plan for apollo 9?


Research on Apollo 9.

Perigee 189.5 kilometers (117.7 mi)
Apogee 192.4 kilometers (119.6 mi)

That's not even close to 5,000 miles choos.


*slow clap*

now read what i wrote again, properly, this time. third times the charm..



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