The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8

And again to ensure we have all the information, the launch itself was near local midnight, so a bright flash would have been very visible to anything flying overhead. Civilian satellites operating in the visible spectrum tend to aim for local noon to ensure optimum brightness conditions. The nearest visible spectrum image from NIMBUS-3 was actually taken at just at 05:35 GMT on the 4th and it was much clearer then.



For a satellite to capture the launch failure itself, it would need to have been using infra-red, and even then it would have had to have been at exactly the right spot at exactly the right time, and have had the luck to have had a completely unobscured view. NIMBUS-3 did have IR cameras, but it would have captured an image at around 17:00 GMT as it descended on a night time pass having just imaged the Americas on the ascending daylight pass.

Again, meaningless in the context of the OP. N-1 failed. the USSR could not emulate the USA because it had no heavy lift capability.

The Russians never duplicated Apollo 8

Charles Vick said in 2011,

“That is an amazing story to be told … that hasn’t been told,” Vick said.

There is some slack in the narrative here because in Feb 69 the CIA missed the first N-1 launch then but then in Jul 69 it says "satellites revealed" and "word spread".

N-1 Launch #1 February 1, 1969. N-1 launch fail #1

The main body of the rocket impacted 45 km downrange from the launch pad. British intelligence detected the launch attempt, but the CIA's technical means for some reason missed it and they denied for years that it had ever occurred. Source www.astronautix.com...

NIMBUS-3 April 14, 1969 NIMBUS-3 launched operates until January 22, 1972.

N-1 July 3, 1969. N-1 launch fail #2 + Frank Borman is in Russia for 10 days

Upon impact of the base of the N1 with the pad, the vehicle exploded with the force of a small nuclear bomb, destroying launch complex 110R. US weather and meteorological satellites revealed the disaster to the US intelligence agencies, and word soon spread through the government. Source www.astronautix.com...

Vick says,

Vick said. He’s also on the hunt for Defense Meteorological Satellite Program imagery from July 3, 1969, that purportedly caught the flash from an N-1 booster exploding, annihilating the rocket and launch tower. Source m.space.com...

I am going to place my bets on that Charles Vick knows what he is talking about since he is a recognized expert in the subject matter of this thread. www.globalsecurity.org...

“That is an amazing story to be told … that hasn’t been told,” Vick said.

Recall that James Webb quit NASA making some stunning remarks about the capabilities of Russian booster rockets.

++ Thanks to OBM for providing some examples of what weather satellite images looked like in 1969. Obviously these examples are not taken from Keyhole or DMSP because those are still classified.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

unless im mistaken, posted by YOURSELF in a different thread

www.astronautix.com...
Following the success of Apollo 8, Ustinov calls a crisis meeting at the Ministry of Defence. His question - how to reply to the American's success?
Ustinov points out that the Americans obviously had a better moon landing programme than the Soviets, as well as better management skills. He estimated there were 1.5 million Americans working on the Apollo programme, as opposed to only 500,000 Soviet citizens working on the Russian counterpart programmes. The American programme was under firm state control by a single Agency (NASA) as opposed to the Communist system, based on comradely co-operation between many entities. What then shall we do? asked Ustinov. It was suggested that he order Pilyugin to give priority to development of the N1-L3 guidance system. Currently the guidance for Yangel and Nadiradze ICBM's had priority in his bureau. Pilyugin himself suggested abandonment of the single-launch profile for the two launch variant for the N1-L3. This would mean it would take 4 to 5 years to land a Russian on the moon rather than 3 to 4 years. Who will care anyway? said Pilyugin. The Americans will have been there already.

/thread

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

“That is an amazing story to be told … that hasn’t been told,” Vick said.

If it hasn't been told, how does he know it needs telling?

I am going to place my bets on that Charles Vick knows what he is talking about since he is a recognized expert in the subject matter of this thread.

He's also a journalist with a story to sell. What does he have to say about Soviet heavy lift capability in December 1968?

If you are willing to accept the word of experts in their field why won't you accept the word of people, including those involved in the actual program, that the Soviets did not have the capability of replicating Apollo 8 - even by the time Apollo 11 happened, and just gave up because they were beaten?

One of his articles lists the Keyhole photographs he believes to be missing from the public gaze. None of them seem to be coincident with the launch of the N-1. Notice his use of the word 'purportedly' about the DMSP image - even he is sceptical. If you want to describe for us a scenario that describes how a satellite just happened to be overhead and just happened to be imaging at the time of the N-1 launch, then go ahead. The resources of the internet are yours.

++ Thanks to OBM for providing some examples of what weather satellite images looked like in 1969. Obviously these examples are not taken from Keyhole or DMSP because those are still classified.

DMSP satellite images were declassified in 1973 and their existence was well known before then, and not just within the military. They were arguably of better quality than their civilian counterparts but were not magic, they were still constrained by the limits of the technology available and polar orbital parameters within which they had to operate. I have seen a good few of them and can testify to their quality. The NIMBUS ones are not far behind.

Some literature about and containing images from DMSP satellites;

www.dtic.mil...

babel.hathitrust.org...

babel.hathitrust.org...

One of the publications above contains a DMSP image showing a storm that is also visible in an Apollo 17 photograph, Cool eh?

Some of us have been looking at this subject area a lot longer than you have.

Some more articles related to Mr Vick:

www.astronautix.com...

www.fas.org...

He's also contributed to Astronautix, the website whose poor referencing standards SJ feels discounts anything they have to say.

The astronautix article above summarises a much more detailed analysis of the Soviet program, where VIck argues that the USSR were indeed trying to design a 2 stage design where a mission was assembled in orbit. In the end they seemed unable to make up their minds which approach to use and this may well have contributed to them not getting to the moon first.

Finally:

With the successful return of Apollo 8 from lunar orbit at the end of December, the race to put a man around the moon was won by the United States. Further manned L1 flights were cancelled as pointless.

A critique of the article can be found here:

www.svengrahn.pp.se...

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

I am going to place my bets on that Charles Vick knows what he is talking about since he is a recognized expert in the subject matter of this thread.

That being the case, every quote from Vick found at the link you provided supports everything everyone else has said here about the Russian space program and the N-1 so it would seem to me this thread is logically concluded.

originally posted by: DelMarvel
That being the case, every quote from Vick found at the link you provided supports everything everyone else has said here about the Russian space program and the N-1 so it would seem to me this thread is logically concluded.

Here's the real summary.

What we have seen in this thread is that the history of N-1 is not as concrete as some people here are willing to believe it is. Especially in light of the facts. That Borman was in Russia for the second N-1 launch explosion in early July 1969, that newspapers indicated that his airplane flew near the secret launch area en route from Yalta to Novosibirsk.

Secondly, we have seen that the Ustinov comments should be brought into the narrative.

To quote just bit of OBM here and I agree with his assessment when he says

"where VIck argues that the USSR were indeed trying to design a 2 stage design where a mission was assembled in orbit. In the end they seemed unable to make up their minds which approach to use"

That is Ustinov talking, from the diary, or whatever, written by a researcher, in the badly footnoted article available on astronautix. Did the Russians have a dual track lunar program as suggested by astronautix? Did Frank Borman visit or observe the Baikonur secret complex?

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
To quote just bit of OBM here and I agree with his assessment when he says

"where VIck argues that the USSR were indeed trying to design a 2 stage design where a mission was assembled in orbit. In the end they seemed unable to make up their minds which approach to use"



That is Ustinov talking, from the diary, or whatever, written by a researcher, in the badly footnoted article available on astronautix.

Well, actually it's me summarising an astronautix article on a much larger piece published by Vick and his co-author in Quest magazine, a well regarded space history journal.

Did the Russians have a dual track lunar program as suggested by astronautix?

Again, it's not astronautix suggesting that, it's Vick. Many people agree with him, but his article is still informed speculation rather than established fact.

Did Frank Borman visit or observe the Baikonur secret complex?

Highly doubtful. The newspaper is speculating to fill in a story. It depends on their definition of 'flew near'.

If you're going to complain about poor referencing skills you might want to start linking to your source for newspaper articles so that we can all read the entire piece in context, or at least screenshot the whoile thing.

All moot: the Soviets did not emulate Apollo 8.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter

originally posted by: DelMarvel
That being the case, every quote from Vick found at the link you provided supports everything everyone else has said here about the Russian space program and the N-1 so it would seem to me this thread is logically concluded.

What we have seen in this thread is that the history of N-1 is not as concrete as some people here are willing to believe it is. Especially in light of the facts. That Borman was in Russia for the second N-1 launch explosion in early July 1969, that newspapers indicated that his airplane flew near the secret launch area en route from Yalta to Novosibirsk.

As I have repeatedly said, this is not new information. Anyone with a calendar and a brain would have known this fact many years ago. Borman's trip was reported in detail in 1969. The N-1 launch failure date has been public knowledge for at least a decade and probably longer than that.

You have a habit of presenting widely known facts as if they were somehow new, exciting, significant revelations. It doesn't fool anybody.

Did Frank Borman visit or observe the Baikonur secret complex?

No. If there were any plans to take him there, I am sure they were quickly shelved once the N-1 blew up and put the launch site out of action for 18 months. An American astronaut, being a highly trained observer, might spot a big smoking hole where the launch pad ought to be.

a reply to: Rob48

"If there were any plans to take him there, I am sure they were quickly shelved "

How sure are you? It doesn't mean that everyone else is sure about it. Frank Borman was invited as a tourist to Star Town... described as "highly unusual". Then, the Russians were taking him around showing him secret facilities, his airplane flight details "remained a secret".

Where are the US satellite images from July 1968 that confirm the devastation at the Baikonur launch facility? It took the Russians months to rebuild the site... where are the satellite images that show these rebuilding efforts?

Where is the mysterious DMSP satellite image that allegedly showed the "flash of light" of the explosion of N-1 on July 3, 1968? If Charles Vick, expert in the topic, cannot find that image --- maybe the existence of it (sat. image) is fraudulent allegation or misinformation let out by the CIA to confuse researchers.

Are the Russians & Americans still keeping secrets about the 1960's moon race? Conclusion : Yes, they both are.

"The New York Times quoted reliable sources as saying that the astronaut would visit the Russian space center in central Kazakhstan."

This newsclip further establishes my contention that Frank Borman, Apollo 8 commander, was invited to the top secret Russian launch facilities at Baikonur.

This newsclip further establishes my contention that Frank Borman, Apollo 8 commander, was invited to the top secret Russian launch facilities at Baikonur.

But note the date: July 1. Before the explosion. As I said, it is quite plausible that he was originally supposed to visit Baikonur, but they changed his itinerary after the failed launch.

originally posted by: SayonaraJupiter
a reply to: Rob48

Where are the US satellite images from July 1968 that confirm the devastation at the Baikonur launch facility? It took the Russians months to rebuild the site... where are the satellite images that show these rebuilding efforts?

Nitpick: July 1969.

And here: on the left, Baikonur site 110 on June 11, 1969. On the right, the same site on August 3, 1969. Images from the KH-8 and CORONA satellites respectively:



And a better quality version of the "after" photo:



And a preliminary intelligence report from August 1969:




Lots of juicy documents for you here: www.globalsecurity.org...

Double post.

originally posted by: onebigmonkey
If you're going to complain about poor referencing skills you might want to start linking to your source for newspaper articles so that we can all read the entire piece in context, or at least screenshot the whoile thing.

Happy to share! Thanks again for your inputs to the thread.

Borman, Deseret News, Dec 18, 1968, broke an ear drum - the air force promptly grounded him
news.google.com...
Borman, broken ear drum, October 1951 + Clifford E. Charlesworth, flight director for Apollo 8
news.google.com...
Borman, FOCUS, tv advert in newspaper,
news.google.com...
Borman, Nixon's mission to 14 countries + Moscow only 30 days after leaving active duty; Aug 8, 1970
news.google.com...
Borman, Frank's ear having trouble again Mar 9, 1966
news.google.com...
Borman, Franks airline smuggling coc aine between Miami and Caracas in 1986
news.google.com...
Borman, special emissary of President Nixon, Jan 30, 1969 London visit with family, visit to Queen Eliz.
news.google.com...
Borman, visit to Star City "Even limited access to facilities being granted Borman is highly unusual"
news.google.com...
Borman, visit to USSR in July 1969 also included Novosibirsk, Siberia, plans remain secret.
news.google.com...
Borman, visit to Vatican Feb 15, 1969
news.google.com...
Borman, Nixon Aide, POW, effort Sept 24, 1970
news.google.com...
Borman, arrives in Moscow reported July 2, 1969
news.google.com...
Borman, says he went to school in Rome '20 years ago' with BODY COUNTS article right above it
news.google.com...
Borman, invited by Soviet Ambassador Anatole Dobrynin, on behalf the Institute of Soviet-American Relations. to Moscow, reliable sources quoted he would visit the Russian space
Center in Kazakhstan; Borman was in Prague, CZ, last month... Borman says going as a tourists!
news.google.com...
Borman, on Montreal TV again, host of ABC "They Care for a City", program called "Mission Possible"
On the environment in San Fransisco;
news.google.com...
Borman, first European tour, Jan 31, 1969 + side by side with BODY COUNT VIETNAM
news.google.com...
Borman, return from Soviet Union, good trip, July 11, 1969, held news conference, says same things
news.google.com...
Borman commission, West Point cheating, Dec 17, 1976
news.google.com...
Same paper, US has ears, says CIA recovered section of sub and listening to Sov. comms
news.google.com...
Borman's clean shave on the helicopter
news.google.com...

Am I the only person that has read Behold a Pale Horse by William Cooper? He meantime there are ancient lunar bases on the dark side of the moon. If you research further in Thiaoouba Prophecy the Angelic Race that lives at the center of the Milky Way said that when the Maya Atlanteans Emmigtated here 60,000 years ago they built them because they were encountering hostile Yellow and Blacks that were much more uncivilized as well as far inferior to technological advancement, unfortunately large gaseous belts that destroyed Lemuria and Atlantis wipe out all civilizations 15,000 years ago. Michel Desmaruet still has photos of the based on the dark side of moon. There was a 3 hour video on Google that has him show them.

originally posted by: Rob48

Lots of juicy documents for you here: www.globalsecurity.org...

In my opinion, Charles Vick's research suggests that the Russians actually had a dual-track lunar program. It means that the Russians were not 100% dedicated to the N-1 for manned lunar missions. The Russians had other plans, they had back up plans.

One secret program was based on the N-1, another secret program was based on the 1955 von Braun moon plan, i.e., two (or more) launch vehicles (Proton), some low earth orbit assembly, and a Vostok capsule. The comments made by Ustinov (if they are completely trustworthy) also seem to suggest that Russians had dual-track program up to a certain point in time.

What's your opinion Rob... did the Russians have a dual-track manned lunar program? How far did they come along?

++ I'd like to say that this turned out to be a really fine research thread, Thanks for your input to the thread!

a reply to: Thiaoouba Prophecy

Michel Desmaruet still has photos of the based on the dark side of moon.

Unless you are talking about a Pink Floyd album, there is no dark side of the Moon. All sides of the Moon receive sunlight and darkness, just as all sides of Earth do.

It's also possible that the Russians launched the N-1 successfully on July 3/4? with Frank Borman observing it from an airplane, en route from Yalta to Novosibirsk. It is possible that the 'destruction' on the ground captured by US spy satellites was simply the normal aftermath associated with a successful launch. It is possible that the Russians have written a totally false history in order to keep some secrets for later use.... because it serves Russian core interests. They have been playing a very long term geopolitical chess strategy because it is a fact that the Russians never duplicated Apollo 8. Nobody has done it since Nixon was in office. The Russians are great at science and space, predictably, they test everything and verify the results, like the Bion series of missions... but they never verified Frank Borman's Apollo 8. Maybe because they can do it... but if someone tried to do it then it would expose Nixon's Apollo... which was based on Nazi rockets, Surveyor robots and TV propaganda. The blind hatred for Communism that was the secret honor of Howard Hughes & Richard Nixon.. is perfectly encapsulated by Frank Borman's reading from the book of Genesis on Christmas Eve, December 24, 1968, broadcasting on live TV... it was Howard Hughes' birthday. The Commies are athiests so they would hate that.

Frank Borman was a trouble shooter for NASA. Just a few days after Nixon was inaugurated Frank Borman was also the president's special envoy to Queen Elizabeth and the Pope... and that's how Frank Borman eventually ended up in Star Town, the secret Soviet cosmonaut training area outside Moscow during the same week of the alleged N-1 launch failure. He was in the small office next to the oval office watching the Apollo 11 launch on TV with Richard Nixon. A few days later Frank Borman was helping the president with his televised phone conversation with Neil and Buzz. It seems that Nixon was tapping Frank on the should for quite a few things... even POW negotiations.

a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

It's also possible you're delusional.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: SayonaraJupiter

It's also possible you're delusional.

I'll take that as a compliment.