NASA/GRL/Science - Collapse Of West Antarctic Ice Sheet Appears To Be Under Way, Likely Unstoppable

a reply to: raymundoko

Did I say it was a problem? I was simply commenting on the fact that most people who have a lot of kids didn't plan for all of them. Being horny > common sense for most people.

Oh dear. A lot of misinformation in this thread lately.

originally posted by: MysticPearl
This says differently.
...
johncolemanweather.com...

Sea ice is not ice in an ice sheet. Sea ice is ice floating on sea water already. Ice sheets frequently abut sea water (and this is why ocean currents can affect them), but ice sheets sit on land. Thus, if more ice moves from the ice sheet into the sea than is replenished by precipitation, the sea level rises. Sea ice has almost no effect, because it's already there.

originally posted by: pianopraze
Your side says it's the West Antartic and East Antartic ice sheets that are more important, not the increasing sea ice.

And the West Antarctic Ice sheet is melting due to the volcano, exactly as predicted.

Yes, because ice sheets sit on LAND and sea ice lays in WATER. Sea ice nearly displaces its mass in sea water. More ice moving from land adds to the volume of water. This increases water levels.

Pressure is what keeps volcanoes from erupting. If there is more pressure exuded by volcanic forces than those keeping it in check, it will erupt. If ice sheets can shove continents down into the earth, don't you think such pressure can keep volcanoes in check? And, what if this pressure lessens due to melting - what do you suppose might happen then?

Without question, volcanic forces can overcome the pressure of ice sheets. These form what are known as tuyas. They're somewhat rare in the world, however. Probably both due to an area needing glaciation and volcanism that can overcome it during the same time frame.

originally posted by: raymundoko
It actually lowers. Ice expands when frozen. Sea ice that melts actaully reduces sea levels. Land ice that melts raises sea levels. If all ice melted the sea levels would increase about 200 feet.

What? Yes, water expands when frozen, but I think you need a refresher in Archimedes' principle, and a story about something similar. Water has a density of 1.00 gm/cm3. Cold water is slightly denser than warm water, though the phase change to ice changes this. Ice (and sea ice is nearly pure water) has a density of 0.931 gm/cm3. 1000 gm/cm3 of water is simply a 1000 cm3 volume, while the same water weight in sea ice would be ~1074 cm3.

Remember, the denser something is, the more it sinks. Sea water is more dense than pure water; ~1.026 gm/cm3. This is why it's sometimes possible to find fresh water sitting on top of salt water in an undisturbed setting like a cave. Ice is less dense than water and even less dense compared to cold and/or salt water, so it floats. However, as it is buoyant, it doesn't quite displace its weight in sea level rise (mostly due to other factors, like surface tension). So, when sea ice melts, it does slightly increase the sea water level. Here's an example. It does not lower sea level when it melts. The increase is rather small, though; about 2.6% (which is, interestingly, how much more dense sea water is than pure water).

a reply to: raymundoko

This is not to mention that the average temperature could rise to 80 F, which means that the inhabitable lands left after "The Flood" could rise to an average of 110+. Obviously, this is the worst case scenario, but the possibility is there. In addition, it takes about 100,000 years to reach another Ice Age, for all intents and purposes, that means once you lose land, you lose it forever.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Chronon

Perhaps it is a coincidence that we are seeing molten lava and melting ice.

Where are we seeing molten lava?

" we think there is probably a hot spot in the mantle here producing magma far beneath the surface.”

Volcano discovered smoldering under a kilometer of ice in West Antarctica
Its heat may increase the rate of ice loss from one of the continent’s major ice streams

The temperature record from Byrd Station, a scientific outpost in the center of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS), demonstrates a marked increase of 4.3 degrees Fahrenheit (2.4 degrees Celsius) in average annual temperature since 1958 — that is, three times faster than the average temperature rise around the globe.

Study shows rapid warming on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet

We don't know where all the magma is under the ice, the mantle is a large place. But we're just beginning to find out with new discoveries such as this. Perhaps it is only a coincidence that the Western Antarctic is experiencing rising temperatures, melting glaciers and increasing volcanic activity. Simultaneously.

Are volcanoes causing the ice to melt or is the ice melting causing volcanoes?

The team found that when glaciers melt, they reduce the pressure on continents, while sea-level rise increases pressures on the ocean floor crust. In the computer model, the change in pressures on the Earth's crust seem to cause increases in volcanism.

Link

I believe that what we are seeing is a cycle. Under-ice hot spots, magma and volcanoes are melting the ice. In turn, the weight of the dissipating ice is causing more volcanic activity. We need to consider both sides of this equation and the interactions of ice and magma in order to fully understand the process.

a reply to: Chronon
You said we are seeing molten lava. Lava is not the same thing as magma far beneath the surface. Two specific, and different, things.

Study shows rapid warming on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet

Now are you claiming that atmospheric warming in West Antarctica is due to volcanic activity occurring beneath kilometers of ice?

Are volcanoes causing the ice to melt or is the ice melting causing volcanoes?

The glaciers are collapsing because warm water is affecting their feet, not because of volcanoes.

I believe that what we are seeing is a cycle. Under-ice hot spots, magma and volcanoes are melting the ice.

Or maybe the world is getting warmer.

I blame Scrat!

That ice is a communist plot done by Obama, Pelosi and Soros so they can force us to except free renewable energy.

originally posted by: spurgeonatorsrevenge

That ice is a communist plot done by Obama, Pelosi and Soros so they can force us to except free renewable energy.

Does the ice have a birth certificate???

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Chronon
You said we are seeing molten lava. Lava is not the same thing as magma far beneath the surface. Two specific, and different, things.

Study shows rapid warming on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet

Now are you claiming that atmospheric warming in West Antarctica is due to volcanic activity occurring beneath kilometers of ice?

Are volcanoes causing the ice to melt or is the ice melting causing volcanoes?

The glaciers are collapsing because warm water is affecting their feet, not because of volcanoes.

I believe that what we are seeing is a cycle. Under-ice hot spots, magma and volcanoes are melting the ice.

Or maybe the world is getting warmer.

The thread is about the increased melting of the "ice" not atmospheric temperatures, so yes the volcano is the reason for it.

a reply to: AmenStop

The thread is about the increased melting of the "ice" not atmospheric temperatures, so yes the volcano is the reason for it.

No, it isn't.
But maybe you should read the article that I was talking about, the one posted by Chronon. You know, the one about atmospheric temperatures increasing in Western Antarctica. This one:
Study shows rapid warming on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet


BTW, why the quotation marks around ice?

a reply to: Phage

Damn it Phage, you Ninja'd me! I was about to ask the same thing.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Chronon
Or maybe the world is getting warmer.

As we are discussing an environmental issue, the air, the sea, the ice and the land are interrelated. Are volcanoes under the ice directly heating the air? No. But are the attributes of one part of the Antarctic environment affecting others and causing a chain reaction? I believe the articles that I linked to accredited scientific research show some interrelations, but not all. This area of the world retains much mystery and is increasingly becoming a source of investigation.

What I am highlighting is that we cannot only focus on one area, such as the warming of the sea accredted to melting the glaciers, without considering the other changes in the same area (such as the warming of the air and volcanism) are happening simultaneously.

The sea does not warm by itself. Neither does the air. Nor do volcanoes appear under the ice with no connection to the surrounding environment. I believe these are interconnected, in a cycle, best described by that last link from my post.

The team found that when glaciers melt, they reduce the pressure on continents, while sea-level rise increases pressures on the ocean floor crust. In the computer model, the change in pressures on the Earth's crust seem to cause increases in volcanism.

Link

Rising sea levels push down on the sea floor. Melting glaciers relieve the weight on the land. Just like squeezing a water balloon on one side, the pressure of the liquid goes to the other side. These scientists are saying magma below the surface is doing the same thing, resulting in volcanoes.

Volcanoes in Antarctica don't always appear above the ice, they sometimes are deep below the ice. By lava, I mean the magma that reaches the surface of the land (below the ice). This melts the ice. Less ice means warmer temperatures. The runoff goes somewhere, probably draining into the ocean, warming the sea. The sea in turn melts the feet of the glaciers. The melting glaciers raise the sea level while relieving the pressure on the land, in turn spurring more volcanic activity and the cycle continues.

As sea levels increase worldwide, according to the scientists in the article I linked, we will see more volcanoes, more melting ice and higher temperatures. That's my theory. It's all connected.

I stand corrected.

a reply to: Greven

I knew sea levels would rise no matter what and agree with the 200~feet if all ice melts.

I've done the experiment with submerged iced, not floating. I'll write it up to a mind fart since these glaciers are obviously floating.

Where did you get 80? That would start to trigger a runaway effect...

a reply to: np6888

The most alarming reports I've ever read were 71f (22c) which would still be detrimental to much life.

Have we been getting warmer for 10k years? Were we warmer in the past?

a reply to: Phage

originally posted by: raymundoko
Have we been getting warmer for 10k years? Were we warmer in the past?[/post]

Technically, we are living an an Ice Age. An interglacial period of an Ice Age.

Link

So yes, it used to be much warmer. "Global Warming" from a geologic standpoint is a misnomer, more like "Returning to Normal" although I wouldn't have wanted to live on Earth when it was normally warm.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

It might also have something to do with the 11 active volcanoes along that ice sheet.


wattsupwiththat.com...

a reply to: raymundoko

Have we been getting warmer for 10k years?

Not steadily warmer, no.

Were we warmer in the past?

Yes.

What's your point?

a reply to: Chronon

The sea does not warm by itself. Neither does the air.

Right. The ocean is primarily warmed by captured heat from solar radiation, just as the air is. Do you think there is enough volcanic activity to raise global temperatures?

These scientists are saying magma below the surface is doing the same thing, resulting in volcanoes.

No. They are not saying that is what is happening.

But even if anthropogenic, or human-caused, climate change impacts volcanic eruptions, people wouldn't see the effect in this lifetime, because the volcanic activity doesn't occur immediately after the climate change, Jegen said.

"We predict there's a time lag of about 2,500 years," Jegen said. "So even if we change the climate, you wouldn't really expect anything to happen in the next few thousand years."

www.livescience.com...

Glaciers have not been rapidly melting for 2,500 years.

Just getting a feel for where you're at. I don't think I've ever disagreed with you. I personally don't subscribe to AGW. I do think we are still in a warming period however and I think we'll get warmer.

A reply to: Phage