Group Preparing to Press Military for Atheist Chaplain

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Again, as I said earlier, you present "atheist" as an untrue spin but the you present atheists outnumbering Buddhists and the like as evidence if need. Which is it? Do you switch from one to the other as convenient?

The term Humanist is a larger group that INCLUDES atheists.

How many? How many US servicemen/women describe themselves that way. It is disingenuous to state that there are 13,000 atheists and utilize that a evidence that they need a humanist chaplain. We don't know how many of that number want a chaplain labeled "humanist" or even buy into the premise much less how many want or agree that this group is the "humanist" they want. Why and how does this particular blog/organization claim to speak for all of the humanists in the service.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: NavyDoc

That's right. I am not in the service. But I don't need to be to understand the desire to have someone of similar mind to talk with in times of trouble, insecurity and doubt. I'm a human being.

There's nothing "special" about being in the service, but I find many who have been, think there's something special about themselves. I don't buy it. They're people, just like the rest of us.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my point. The point is, that for someone outside of a subculture or organization, they do not understand what is already or not already provided and what is actually needed vs just another special interest group trying to sell more stuff on their website.

a reply to: NavyDoc

The point is, that for someone outside of a subculture or organization, they do not understand what is already or not already provided and what is actually needed vs just another special interest group trying to sell more stuff on their website.

No, the point is that there has been the suggestion, made by a number of different Humanist groups, that there isn't adequate representation of a certain aspect of spiritual expression, that doesn't include an all seeing and all knowing deity, in the Chaplains' Offices.

You yourself have acknowledged said absence, and have supported the idea that non-believers have access to psychologists and that is adequate enough, in your opinion.

Some people, including some servicemen and women, don't agree with you.

Atheists in Foxholes

There are many atheists in foxholes and I'm proof that being thrust into regular periods of extended combat does nothing to change a true non-theist's beliefs. Recent overtly Christian prayers at change of command ceremonies, award ceremonies, and graduation ceremonies have caused me to step back and ask questions about how the Army can justify incorporating religious belief or tradition into its daily activities when our country is supposed to have a clear separation of church and state. Every time I'm asked to bow my head I'm reminded of religious officers in Afghanistan who require their soldiers to participate in daily Islamic ceremony. Sometimes I wonder how different we truly are. Many claim that the majority of Soldiers, at least in my unit, are Christian and that the ceremonial prayers are harmless. Most if not all, however, would be up in arms if a Muslim or Jewish Chaplain stood in a Christian's place. The majority of theists I've come across simply have never thought about the issue. It is my goal to help my fellow Soldiers realize the hypocrisy of their attitude toward incorporating religion into ceremony within the Army while doing everything I can to make our non-theist voices count as equal to those who choose to represent imaginary gods. - See more at: militaryatheists.org...

NavyDoc, just because you are not aware of the need, doesn't mean there is none. You think what you want. I really don't care.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Sremmos80

originally posted by: minusinfinity

originally posted by: Sremmos80
Ya I think this is overboard.
Why would atheist need a chaplin? What are they going to talk about??

Agree with you that if they feel that need, they can just go talk to the shrink.

I wonder what their insignia would be....

The insignia hmmm....maybe the inverted chaplain insignia.

Well each religion has their own, but i am pretty sure I know what you are getting at

Off topic, but when do they get the satanist chaplain?

That would be the satanic chaplain...lol

I think they have that

a reply to: Xtrozero

So what would this atheist Chaplin provide, that the ones they have already do not provide?

That's a good question.

Probably they don't want a person that believes because they don't think they can relate at one anothers level?

I don't know.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Atheists in Foxholes

There are many atheists in foxholes and I'm proof that being thrust into regular periods of extended combat does nothing to change a true non-theist's beliefs. Recent overtly Christian prayers at change of command ceremonies, award ceremonies, and graduation ceremonies have caused me to step back and ask questions about how the Army can justify incorporating religious belief or tradition into its daily activities when our country is supposed to have a clear separation of church and state. Every time I'm asked to bow my head I'm reminded of religious officers in Afghanistan who require their soldiers to participate in daily Islamic ceremony. Sometimes I wonder how different we truly are. Many claim that the majority of Soldiers, at least in my unit, are Christian and that the ceremonial prayers are harmless. Most if not all, however, would be up in arms if a Muslim or Jewish Chaplain stood in a Christian's place. The majority of theists I've come across simply have never thought about the issue. It is my goal to help my fellow Soldiers realize the hypocrisy of their attitude toward incorporating religion into ceremony within the Army while doing everything I can to make our non-theist voices count as equal to those who choose to represent imaginary gods. - See more at: militaryatheists.org...

NavyDoc, just because you are not aware of the need, doesn't mean there is none. You think what you want. I really don't care.

I know you don't care.


I would humbly suggest that we have a lot on our plate and don't need further distraction by activists with agendas and we can take care of ourselves.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
I would humbly suggest that we have a lot on our plate and don't need further distraction by activists with agendas and we can take care of ourselves.

And I would suggest that you don't speak for the military. In fact, I think I know a lot more about this than you do. Because I'm CURIOUS and I have researched it with an OPEN-MIND and found that there are MANY service members who do want a chaplain they can relate to...

From the link you clearly didn't read:

Army Major David Schrier
Specialty: Physician
"The hospital chaplain, in particular, was naive to the concepts of religious diversity and freedom. He turned several mandatory "briefings" into a platform for proselytizing and preaching. He even tried to convert or preach to wounded patients, including locals and their families"
...
Army National Guard Sergeant 1st Class Casey Braden
Specialty: Chemical/Biological/Nuclear
"I also think that the military needs to realize that not everyone in their ranks is a Christian, and that Chaplain-led Christian prayers in formation are grossly inappropriate."
...
Navy Master Chief Petty Officer Larry Bucher
Specialty: Communications
"In Naples a friend was hassled when he reenlisted; he had indicated atheist on his reenlistment papers, some meddler in personnel brought it to the chaplain's attention and the chaplain called him in for spiritual reclamation."
" In Danang I had to get the chaplain's initials on my request for six-month extension. It went well until the end, when he asked my religion. "None, sir." I had no choice but to endure his grumpy disapprobation which was thankfully brief, and included indictment of Radiomen in general. Some of my sailors had earlier earned his disapproval."

Yeah, I'm going to have to conclude that YOU are the one who doesn't know what the military needs...

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
I would humbly suggest that we have a lot on our plate and don't need further distraction by activists with agendas and we can take care of ourselves.

And I would suggest that you don't speak for the military. In fact, I think I know a lot more about this than you do. Because I'm CURIOUS and I have researched it with an OPEN-MIND and found that there are MANY service members who do want a chaplain they can relate to...

From the link you clearly didn't read:

Army Major David Schrier
Specialty: Physician
"The hospital chaplain, in particular, was naive to the concepts of religious diversity and freedom. He turned several mandatory "briefings" into a platform for proselytizing and preaching. He even tried to convert or preach to wounded patients, including locals and their families"
...
Army National Guard Sergeant 1st Class Casey Braden
Specialty: Chemical/Biological/Nuclear
"I also think that the military needs to realize that not everyone in their ranks is a Christian, and that Chaplain-led Christian prayers in formation are grossly inappropriate."
...
Navy Master Chief Petty Officer Larry Bucher
Specialty: Communications
"In Naples a friend was hassled when he reenlisted; he had indicated atheist on his reenlistment papers, some meddler in personnel brought it to the chaplain's attention and the chaplain called him in for spiritual reclamation."
" In Danang I had to get the chaplain's initials on my request for six-month extension. It went well until the end, when he asked my religion. "None, sir." I had no choice but to endure his grumpy disapprobation which was thankfully brief, and included indictment of Radiomen in general. Some of my sailors had earlier earned his disapproval."

Yeah, I'm going to have to conclude that YOU are the one who doesn't know what the military needs...

And a few cherry picked quotes from a few members with a bone to pick is indicative of what the military needs how? Remember--anecdote does not equal data.

I get it, you're going to take the word of activists and disgruntled people because their agenda fits yours. However, that is not knowledge, that it finding things that fit your own bias.

Since you and yours don't want to hear the truth from the several military members who have actually served and who have posted in this thread, but just quote activist blogs, It is rather worthless to continue, so I wish you a good day.

a reply to: NavyDoc

dude, you didnt research this with an open mind....OMG, you obviously dont know the first thing about the military.....you must be an open minded keyboard warrior...Had you read things on the internet instead of living in the military for X number of years you would be better informed on what military life is like.

I mean honestly, you dont even have a source for text you didnt write to copy and post here....that should be your first clue. Second, you are in the military, so that doesnt equal the level of understanding of the military that internet users have. We read things and watch videos. Can you say the same? I didnt think so.

So lets just accept that because you are not as informed about military life since you are in the military now, and since you didnt post text that you didnt write from the internet, that you have to accept what other people want for you.

And ultimately its not fair. Atheists arent being treated like other religions and that is discrimination. You arent a bigot too are you? OMG there is no limit to the gross disservice you do us here.

Please read things from the internet, watch videos of things on the internet, and listen to those who are expert readers and watchers of things on the internet. You are making a fool of yourself.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
There's nothing "special" about being in the service, but I find many who have been, think there's something special about themselves. I don't buy it.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. I find it appalling and spoiled ... devoid of appreciation for people who agree to help keep your freedoms in tact by literally putting their very lives on the line. I'm sure my opinion means as little to you as your opinion means to me. But whatever ... there it is.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
There's nothing "special" about being in the service, but I find many who have been, think there's something special about themselves. I don't buy it.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. I find it appalling and spoiled ... devoid of appreciation for people who agree to help keep your freedoms in tact by literally putting their very lives on the line. I'm sure my opinion means as little to you as your opinion means to me. But whatever ... there it is.

You actually believe those men and women are paid to risk their lives for our freedom and happiness? Hahahaha. Oh boy, I ain't even gonna touch that one.