Originally posted by FlyersFan
Once again, the woman doesn't abort herself. She isn't killing
HER own body, she is killing someone else's.

She stops another human being's heart from beating.
When one human stops another human's heart,
then that person has KILLED. It is society's duty to protect
people from being killed by other people. It's called civilized
society. That's who we are ... members of civilized society
trying to get some people to stop killing other helpless people.

Hold on a sec..........I need to go slam my head in the door a few more times!
If you really want to get picky about it, isn't it reallly the doctor performing the abortion that stops the baby's heart? That must mean that the woman gets off scott free. Afterall she wasn't the one who killed it, the doctor was. Ok everybody, let's punish the doctor now. But wait, we can't let the woman off that easily. I have an idea, let's crucify both of them.

Your argument is overly simplistic and not based in logic.

Peace

Dr Love you are wrong and your counterposts are weak and not convincing.
I hope you have other, thought out reasons to support abortion, because if your opinion is based on your last few posts, your opinion is based on nothing.

I'm not christian,
but I'm spiritual, really really spiritual, I'm into reincarnation and KARMA
The foetus is just a foetus, the soul comes into the human body a month before birth..so the soul will just find another baby somewhere else if the foetus dies...that's it! The body and family of the soul will be another...the soul is THE important thing in life, the body is a SHELL, that is why I think that if the woman have abortion, that baby was not meant to be...and she has something to learn out of it
I'm 100% pro-choice because woman can do what they want with their body and if their contraception failed, they don't want children, they can get abortion, just don't abuse it!

SOULS are us,
Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by Jakko
Dr Love you are wrong and your counterposts are weak and not convincing.
I hope you have other, thought out reasons to support abortion, because if your opinion is based on your last few posts, your opinion is based on nothing.

Well Jakko, it seems that you've put me in my place with that perfectly unsubstantiated reply. I though I made my reason for supporting abortion clear. I'm PRO-CHOICE!!! How much clearer and more thought out does it need to be?? Pro-choice doesn't mean I'm pro-death, it means I'm pro-another human being making their OWN choice and living with the consequences (whatever they may be). I don't want to force my will on another, YOU DO! Did God send you down to Earth to judge others. Funny, I thought that was his job. I don't expect someone as intolerable as you to ever understand where I'm coming from. There's an old saying that goes something like "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Read it. Remember it.

Peace

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Dr Love]

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Dr Love]

Yelling pro-choice does not really explain why you support abortion Dr Love.
The anti-abortion camp sees abortion as murder, making you pro-choice, as in allowing murderers to choose wether they want to kill someone or not.

You want to allow people to choose wether they want to kill their unborn kid or not?
I presume you do not look at it as murder, but maybe you could explain what exactly you think abortion is, if not murder.

Oh and I am immune to the "if you are a christian you can't have an opinion anymore" bullsht. That kind of lameness is not even worth a serious reply.

am i guilty of murder every month when my body expells cells that have the potential to become a baby? am i guilty of murder if I have a miscarriage?? am I guilty of murder if I have stillborn??

all eggs and sperm have the potential to become life, if you argue this point, you must also argue against menstruation and masturbation and all forms of birth control. Is this what you people really want??

pro-lifers really need a reality check. worry about the murders that happen everyday to lives already established instead of the "so called murder" of a bunch of cells.

i will continue to state this over and over again. Until there isn't a single child waiting for someone to adopt them, you cannot tell me it is okay to continue making babies that no one wants. Stop the circle before it even starts. What a woman does to her own body is between her, her doctor and her god....allow people to make their own decisions when their decision is something that has no affect on you.

as a woman who has had two children, I personally would never have an abortion, but I like to know that if I was in such a situation that I felt that I had to live with the guilt of having one and had no other alternatives, I would hope to be able to do it in a clean, managed and regulated medical environment.

banning abortions will never stop them, they will continue. various cultures have different ways of inducing abortions, some more gruesome and brutal than others...so understand this, all this hoopla will only risk more lives than those saved. not only will the fetus now die, the risk for the woman losing her life greatly increases. You fight for the right of a bunch of cells, cells that basically become anything or nothing, how about fighting for the life of the woman, a human being capable of making her own decisions.

Originally posted by Jakko
Yelling pro-choice does not really explain why you support abortion Dr Love.
The anti-abortion camp sees abortion as murder, making you pro-choice, as in allowing murderers to choose wether they want to kill someone or not.

You want to allow people to choose wether they want to kill their unborn kid or not?
I presume you do not look at it as murder, but maybe you could explain what exactly you think abortion is, if not murder.

Oh and I am immune to the "if you are a christian you can't have an opinion anymore" bullsht. That kind of lameness is not even worth a serious reply.

Look Jakko, murder is certainly not the word I would use. That word is the crux of the problem here. When a woman has an abortion I don't think she goes into it with the same frame of mind that a robber goes into a liquor store and puts a double tap into the clerks chest. Those who believe that it's murder, cut and dry, are boxing themselves in. There are many reasons that women have abortions; social, economic, family pressure, rape, incest, etc.. Whatever their reason for doing it, it's their reason. You might think it's murder, great, but you have nothing to do with it. You don't have to pay the physical and emotional price for it, they do. There's no reason you should open your piehole and tell a woman what to do with her body. I thought that the most basic human right is free will. I believe that a fetus is not conscious of it's own free will. I don't remember being born, do you? Hell, I can't even remeber anything before around 3 or 4 to be honest with you. We're talking about a fetus here. If you're religious and you believe that a fetus has a soul from the very first second it's in the mothers womb, then you have to believe that God has something better in store for that soul should it be aborted. Maybe there's a cosmic law that we don't know about. Maybe the law is that it immediately goes en-utero again. Who knows?!! You need to have more faith and more tolerance and believe in 'to each his own'.

Peace

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Dr Love]

Originally posted by worldwatcher
i will continue to state this over and over again. Until there isn't a single child waiting for someone to adopt them, you cannot tell me it is okay to continue making babies that no one wants. Stop the circle before it even starts. What a woman does to her own body is between her, her doctor and her god....allow people to make their own decisions when their decision is something that has no affect on you.

This is a point that I had not originally thought about and it was very well said. I think that the pro-lifers could care less about ever growing problems such as the need for some sort of population control.

Peace

First of all, there is a huge difference between a living embryo and a "few cells".
Second the statement that what woman should do is between them, their doctor and God, indeed that is how it currently is.
But could it be that all these women and their docters do not really understand what abortion is?

Of course it's often the easy way out, but is the fact that we can not remember anything from our birth a good argument to use in this discussion? Wouldn't that justify a lot of horrible things happening to children and animals?
Does memoryloss make it any less bad that someone was tortured or beat up?

Originally posted by Jakko
But could it be that all these women and their docters do not really understand what abortion is?

Ok Jakko, you tell me what abortion really is, and don't keep regurgitating murder over and over again. I'm sure a doctor knows a hell of a lot more about abortion than you do. I tried to refine my argument for you instead of just going to the "I'm pro-choice" card. It's time for you to step up to the plate.

Originally posted by Jakko
Of course it's often the easy way out, but is the fact that we can not remember anything from our birth a good argument to use in this discussion? Wouldn't that justify a lot of horrible things happening to children and animals?
Does memoryloss make it any less bad that someone was tortured or beat up?

This is classic behavior for someone with no counter argument. Take my words out of context and try to use them to prove your point. When I said I don't remember being born, I wasn't using that as a reason that abortion is Ok, I was simply stating that I have no memories of being a born baby, as I'm sure most people don't. I prefaced that by saying that I don't believe a fetus is conscious of it's own free will, thus it does not know what it is losing. Now you're gonna come along and tell me that it is your job to speak on behalf of all those little, helpless fetuses which, I believe, are not even conscious and, in most probability, don't feel a thing because of drugs. As far as the soul that's in there, which you seem to be so sure of, I don't think God will make it go back to the end of the line and start all over again. That's just my opinion. So, if a pregnant woman decides to have an abortion, decides to live with the physical, emotional, and spiritual consequences, and the fetus is not yet conscious to its reality, what's the freakin' problem?!!!!! How does this affect your life?

Batter up!

I never talked about soul, but I do know that you are throwing away something, what could have been someones life.
And no this is not the case for a few cells or sperm, an embryo is the actual start of someone life.

I find it hard to understand what is so complicated about this way of thinking. You are killing someone. Maybe that someone did not yet develop a will, but you are still killing a life.

Does everyone see where I am coming from? You are destroying what could have been a beautifull human being. A unique person. Killed before it gets the chance to show what it can do or who it wants to be.

That is what I am talking about.

Originally posted by Jakko
I never talked about soul, but I do know that you are throwing away something, what could have been someones life.
And no this is not the case for a few cells or sperm, an embryo is the actual start of someone life.

Jakko, I think we're playing tennis here. Problem is that your racket has a huge hole in the middle of it. The ball never comes back to me. Your argument is now "I don't know what you're throwing away, but you're throwing away something", or something to that effect?? I should have used a ball machine. So when does a 'soul' come into the argument? A lot of people will have you believe that's an important piece of the puzzle.

Originally posted by Jakko
I find it hard to understand what is so complicated about this way of thinking. You are killing someone. Maybe that someone did not yet develop a will, but you are still killing a life.

That's just it, your way of thinking is not complicated, it's mind numbingly uncomplicated. It's not well thought out. It's not based in our everyday reality where certain factors help guide and change our thinking minute to minute.

Originally posted by Jakko
Does everyone see where I am coming from? You are destroying what could have been a beautifull human being. A unique person. Killed before it gets the chance to show what it can do or who it wants to be.

No they don't. The people that might have been part of your crew all jumped overboard. You're like the Titanic after it hit the iceberg. Based on what your writing here, you must be extremely religious, extremely naive, or you live in fantasyland. This convo's on hold until you give me something with some substance.

Peace out

That was as much substance as I can give you.
It is sad you do not understand it, or even think you have to be religious to think like this.
What if your mother would have had an abortion?
Yes I know she didn't, but she could have...
That would have ment you were killed before you had the voice and will to say that you do want to live.
That would have ment I would not be having this conversation with you, because you would never have gotten the chance to think or dicuss about anything.

Everything that you have come to be, your friends, loved ones, dreams it would all just be non-existant, because your mother did not think you were convinient at that moment in her life.

I am not even talking about soul, simply because noone can tell for sure what exactly the soul is and how concepts relating the soul work.
What we can tell is that abortion equals destroying someones life.
And I mean really destroying a life.

Ok, to kill something it HAS TO BVE ALIVE! If you take a 3 month fetus out, guess what? It isn't alive, it is alive as a tapeworm. Hell, take it out at 6 months, guess what? it isn't alive. It is like a zombie, it isn't alive, but it isn't dead, you can't kill a zombie, but the zombie can "die". Like in the Evil Dead films and all that, the zombies aren't alive, but they aren't dead. Anyways, if abortion is murder, then a woman being on her period is murder, masturbating is murder, taking any kind of pill or using a condom is murder. You religous nutcases can build a timemachine and go back to the time the church ruled europe if you want to live in the days of women being slaves to men, children being the slaves of the father, middle age is 10-12, any form of technology or medicine is the devil, and you have to kill people if they eat meat on a tuesday or walk backwards while whistling with their hands in their pockets and all the other bs rules your religon has.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Anyways, if abortion is murder, then a woman being on her period is murder, masturbating is murder, taking any kind of pill or using a condom is murder.

Listen, you're talking to people who believe in a virgin birth, a man living inside a whale, a boat with all the creatures of the earth inside, and the entire cosmos being created in seven days by a man so insecure that learning something new is bad enough for him to throw a tantrum and kick Adam and Eve out of Eden.

Logic doesn't work on people who believe in fairy tales and let the invisible man in the sky make their choices for them. Simple minded people who need a crutch to make their lives better. It's a matter of faith, something the rest of us are beholding to and punished for not having.

Brimstone, I am afraid your ignorant bashing is not worth a reply, other than that you're obviously too pathetic to participate in the dicussion in a mature way.

James, the embryo is very alive, not dead neither permanently asleep.
I presume that you agree with me that abortion "aborts" what would have been someones life.
The reasons for an abortion may vary, but the result is always the same. A life that allready started is "aborted".

Monthly period is not a life that allready started, neither is sperm.
I am not sure how much you know about how these things work, but the embryo only starts to grow under specific conditions, and takes more than just sperm or just the womans period.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
You religous nutcases can build a timemachine and go back to the time the church ruled europe if you want to live in the days of women being slaves to men, children being the slaves of the father, middle age is 10-12, any form of technology or medicine is the devil, and you have to kill people if they eat meat on a tuesday or walk backwards while whistling with their hands in their pockets and all the other bs rules your religon has.

Are you off your meds, or do you truly not know anything?

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
I'm against abortion & I'm not a Christian, nor do I support the death penalty. I'm also very pro birth-control & believe education about & access to birth control should be increased.

If abortion is to remain legal, it should at least be referred to as what it exactly is & not by feminist-sounding rhetoric like "a woman's right to choose."

"A woman's right to choose." That sounds so...Oprah.

In the final analysis, "a woman's right to choose" does not adequately describe the act of abortion. Dead fetal tissue chucked in one of those hazmat wastebaskets you see at your doctor is what abortion truly is.

And stop staining the otherwise noble cause of feminism with the blood of these children.

, a non-christian that is also against abortion.
It's weird, I am christian and against abortion but I try not to mix my religion up in the discussion beause I realize that all the ignorant christians like Horacid make it impossible for any christian to talk about this subject and not be flamed for being Christian.

I guess the less intelligent types like James and brim don't really care what is IN my posts though, they can just copy paste the same christian-bashing rambling in every and any thread I am posting in, isn't that convenient.

testing 1 2 3

[edit on 1-12-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
Brimstone, I am afraid your ignorant bashing is not worth a reply, other than that you're obviously too pathetic to participate in the dicussion in a mature way.

Well, Jesus forgives me, why can't you? I'll eventually learn from my mistakes, but you have to show me the right way. In this case, you're tying to change things, so the burden of proof is on you. It's not a matter of faith to me, like it is for you. So, without using faith as a basis for your reasoning, you have to convince me to agree with you.

You're not a very good diplomat for your religion.