Originally posted by Mynaeris
1) I am female
2) I am against all war
3) I am pro-choice. Unfortunately the fetus/potential baby doesn't have a choice , therefore it is society's duty to protect his rights to choose untill he is old enough to choose. As for the pregnant grown up - I support fully your choice for control over your life - I promise not to stop you from committing suicide. Killing the innocent unfortunately I don't believe is your choice.
4) I am so bored with the stereotype of the average abortion seeker - a 12 year old raped by her granddaddy and lives in a trailer park... it's not true. Most "patients" at an abortion clinic are in their late teens/ early twenties and from middle income homes. We all know that the poor love their kids.
5) Abortion is not an alternate to birth control. You know how to have sex, learn how to take birth control.
6) I totally disagree that it is the woman's choice, if she chooses to give birth she can force the father to pay support for the child. What sexist weirdness is this.
7) Being a Christian or not is not really the reason that people are against abortion, its strange that non-christians/pagans etc are all against murder, but I guess its easier to face the murder thats not reported.

Suicide is also murder.

Croat: you are right , but its a choice you make for yourself.

I am not sure about that majority comment either. Most women I talk to believe that although they would never personally have one, it is not up to government to tell women what to do with their bodies. I guess the anti-abortion people would have women return to the days of back alley hackjobs, which mostly resulted in death by malpractice which is murder also.
What is funny is that in nature an animal's body will sometimes naturally abort a fetus if there is a lack of resources to support the child and adult. With humans however (in first world societies) we are artificially sustained from the grocery store and welfare or charities when there is no money to buy food, so our bodies do not do this anymore. The truth is however there is not enough space and food in this world to sustain us all. Lots of children starve, lots die of disease, and quite a few die of abuse. How is it any different?

Originally posted by Otts
Let's turn back the clock to 1699. Those were fun days.

Did you ever read Roe vs Wade? Some of the precidents cited dated back before 1699.

My two penny's...I think it should be legal for rape victims, and if the mothers life is at risk. Everyone is allowed a mistake, but these young ladies need to learn from the mistakes. Cuz killing babies AIN'T cool in my book.
Now I know all about womens rights, i'm a woman. But it's not ok to spank your children, it dang sure ought not be ok to kill them!!!

Originally posted by krt1967
Everyone is allowed a mistake, but these young ladies need to learn from the mistakes. Cuz killing babies AIN'T cool in my book.

So, if the 1.5 million yearly abortions were to be stopped, those children were introduced into the population, who would pay for them? I mean most of them would be born in poverty, so you, me and Joe Taxpayer would have to pay for it. If it costs 4,000 per year to raise a child, encured by the state, That's $6,000,000,000 extra, per year, that we have to find.
Second year, 12 billion dollars. Third year, 18 billion dollars.

And by the time the first of them turn 18, and stop being obligations to the state, there would be 29 million new Americans at a total cost of 116 billion dollars. And that's just feeding them, clothing them, and keeping a room over their heads. We're not talking about the extra hundred billion it will cost to educate them. Plus, with these kids born in poverty, the likelyhood of them taking up a life of crime greatly increases. It's easily another 100 Billion dollars to imprison even a small portion of them. Not to mention the increases in manpower you'll need to just enforce the laws and you have a nightmare inducing situation. That's not including the the strain on hospitals, city infrastructures, and the mass transit system. All and all, that's over 300 Billion dollars that we would have to find in an already bankrupt treasury.

However, I'd be more willing to consider overturning Roe, if millionaires would agree to a twenty five percent tax increase and churches would give up their tax free status to help off set this cost.

Yeah, don't let that get in the way of teaching those women a lesson.

I try to stay out of these abortion debates, but it is hard to resist. I am pro-choice, meaning that I don't believe it should be the government's decision but rather one between a woman and her doctor.
Making abortion illegal will only make it worse. Just because they won't be reported does not mean that illegal abortions/intentional miscarriage won't happen.

I personally detest the idea of abortion, and do not think it is a simple matter, but it is a matter, for each individual to make up their own mind about.
I see in these threads, so many posters who talk about God and their religious beliefs, yet sound angry and full of hatred and lack of understanding/compassion. It kinda pisses me off...I won't name names, but really, stop trying to tell others right from wrong.

What I really don't understand is how can so many preach about how evil it is to have an abortion, then go home and eat a burger? Pro-"life"rs, look at your shoes. What are they made out of? leather?? Are animals not living creatures too? Unnecessary murder if you ask me...
Here's the thing- I don't want to take your right away to make that call for yourself. But really, shut up about what is and isn't murder til you aren't guilty of what others may consider contributing to unnecessary death and suffering of living creatures.

Originally posted by krt1967
But it's not ok to spank your children, it dang sure ought not be ok to kill them!!!

Actually, I was spanked a total of four times when I was a kid, and I think spanking is a good thing if practiced the right way - there are some rules to observe, mainly never spanking a child when you're angry. But I've found that there are not many alternatives suggested by those who are against it - it usually revolves around "reasoning" with a child, except that when the child is 6 or 7...

Anyway, back on topic. I think we agree on a few basic premises - abortion is a really serious question, it should be practiced only in the most serious of circumstances, and both the needs of the mother and those of the baby should be taken into account when tackling the issue.

I still say that if abortion is legal, it's easier to control it and make the circumstances where it is practiced rigorous. If you make it illegal, you don't eradicate it - you just hide it. As was said, it'll still be practiced.

Mynaeris - I don't see what the suggestion of suicide brings to the discussion. You're treating pregnant women who want to get an abortion as the enemy, when you know absolutely NOTHING of their situation.

I think that everyone will concede that abortion is a medical necessity in cases were the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother. Most people also agree that abortion is warranted in cases of rape. The issue of whether or not abortion is warranted when the pregnancy is unwanted is the most ambiguous issue, however, the mechanism that provides the procedure for groups of women where it is critical yet bars abortion for all other women is inherently problematic.

The duty of limiting access to abortion only to cases where society feels that it is justified will ultimately fall to the courts. It will be up to judges to decide who can receive and abortion and who cannot. This is a very dangerous scenario, especially when abortions should be performed as early as possible and sometimes must be performed immediately if the life of the mother is as risk.

Consider the case of rape--the victim cannot just walk into her doctors office, claim that she was raped and get an abortion. She has to report the rape to the police, press charges, go to court, face the rapist and prove that a rape occured. Only then, would she be able to legally have an abortion. This process could take months or longer, all the while the pregnancy would continue, potentially causing severe psychological damage and limiting the ability to obtain an abortion. This is not a viable solution. Many cases of rape go unreported because of the trauma and shame that is inflicted upon the victim, especially if incest is involved. Sometimes the rapist cannot be caught. This is exacerbated if she is made pregnant--having the ability the have an abortion without further victimization is a necessity.

In the case of medical necessity, the situation is even more ominous. The decision to perform an abortion would no longer be in the hands of a doctor and patient. Patients' lives would be at stake while doctors await a court order to perform the procedure.

Because there is no viable way to selectively allow abortions without endangering women who need to have these procedures, abortions must be legal for everyone.

That being said, I don't think that society should determine what constitutes a "legitimate" reason to have an abortion. Being pregnant will affect relationships, career, reputation, and health. No one has the right to determine what is best for another person or what another person should believe. If you believe that abortion is wrong for you, don't have one.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I see abortion for what it is ... murder.

As a matter of opinion. But is this just murder of a human that you are concerned with? Because animals suffer much worse fates, but that's not called murder, it's called animal cruelty. So somehow we are better than animals or something?

You aren't making sense. What do animals
have to do with the discussion of abortion?

No abortion being murder is not 'a matter of opinion'.
Abortion stops a human heart from beating. It is
stopped through the direct actions of other humans
in an effort to KILL him or her. Murder is murder.
The human heart stops beating because another
human takes action to stop it on purpose. MURDER.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I have never told anyone that they were going to burn in hell.
I leave that up to God to tell them.

So you assume that god will do for you what you believe to be true? Are you reading what you're saying? I can't believe you actually take yourself seriously...

You just don't get it, do you. How sad. It would be better for you
to stop antagonistically reading things into the simple statements
that others say. Oh .... I find it sad that YOU actually take yourself
seriously. (right back atchya) Very sad. I'll be praying for you.

If God (Capital G) decides to tell someone that they are going to
Hell, I'm very sure that He won't be checking with me to see if it
agrees with what I believe or not. Your comment that 'god will
do for you what you believe to be true' was very strange. Why
the hell would He 'do for me' by sending someone to Hell? That
statement is just too strange to even make any sense. Who
goes to Hell is God's business ... it's between God and that sad
wayward person. And he most definately wouldn't send someone
to Hell just to 'do for me'. Bizzare!

Originally posted by lmgnyc
Most people also agree that abortion is warranted in cases of rape.

No. I think that most people assume and push abortion on a rape
victim - forgetting that the child they are pushing death upon is the
rape victims child. The woman has already been tramatized by
rape. 'Well meaning' relatives, friends, doctors, whoever then
push more trama on the rape victim by assuming she will want
to kill her child. Trama heaped on trama.

Anyone see the post-abortion mental health stats for the woman
who commit abortion? Let's google some up and post here.
SAD!

Just some geee-whiz info .... the woman who brought the
Roe vs Wade lawsuit foward so she could have the right to an
abortion has now become a Roman Catholic and is prolife. She
is actively trying to reverse Roe vs Wade. I'll go google around
and see if I can find something on her and post here. She says
that she was young, and that she was pushed into the lawsuit
by radical forces and now that she is older and understands more,
she very much regrets killing her child and that she was used by
the radicals.

In the knowledge that I am a minority on ATS, I must say I hope abortion will become illegal as well.
Only in the most extreme cases should abortion in an early stage be permitted, and yes it is hard to figure out what cases exactly this should apply to, but just letting every foolish mother murder her unborn child is just obscene.

[edit on 30-11-2004 by Jakko]

Might I add that the mayority of girls that did an abortion eventually regret it later on in their life. I am sure the abortion-clinics never tell you that.

My oh my..........where to start with this?!!

Originally posted by Mynaeris
1) I am female

Ok.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
2) I am against all war

That's kind of a blanket statement, but ok. Let's see what happens when someone declares war on you.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
3) I am pro-choice. Unfortunately the fetus/potential baby doesn't have a choice , therefore it is society's duty to protect his rights to choose untill he is old enough to choose. As for the pregnant grown up - I support fully your choice for control over your life - I promise not to stop you from committing suicide. Killing the innocent unfortunately I don't believe is your choice.

Can this get any more contradictory?!! You're PRO-CHOICE but with one caveat that it's society's duty to protect YOUR child's rights until he or she is old enough to choose. It's YOUR choice. It's YOUR duty. If you believe in God and sin and in judgement, you're the one that's gonna have to pay the piper.
If the baby's not wanted anyway, why not give that soul (if you believe in that kind of thing) another chance to live a life in which it is wanted.

Originally posted by Mynaeris
4) I am so bored with the stereotype of the average abortion seeker - a 12 year old raped by her granddaddy and lives in a trailer park... it's not true. Most "patients" at an abortion clinic are in their late teens/ early twenties and from middle income homes. We all know that the poor love their kids.

Once again, who are you to tell some other woman/girl what to do with HER body? Who cares what their background is. What kind of absurd statement is "we all know that the poor love their kids." You know what I know? I know that if you had it your way we all be shoving tofu turkey down our gullets instead of the real mccoy. I think that all that tofu has gone to your brain!

Originally posted by Mynaeris
5) Abortion is not an alternate to birth control. You know how to have sex, learn how to take birth control.

I would go out on a limb here and say that a high percentage of women don't look at abortion as an alternate to birth control. Hmmm......let's see, take a pill or have my insides roto-rootered. C'mon!!!!!

Originally posted by Mynaeris
6) I totally disagree that it is the woman's choice, if she chooses to give birth she can force the father to pay support for the child. What sexist weirdness is this.

You just got done saying you were pro-choice!!!!!!!!!! Being a woman, I would think that you would be a little more sympathetic to the plight of women who try to FORCE the father to pay child support. Have you ever heard of dead beat dads?

Originally posted by Mynaeris
7) Being a Christian or not is not really the reason that people are against abortion, its strange that non-christians/pagans etc are all against murder, but I guess its easier to face the murder thats not reported.

Now you're grouping non-christian with pagans?! Lady, you're all over the map here. I would have more to say, but I belive that any more that I have to say would be wasted on you.

Peace out

Ok so how about the morning after pill, strictly speaking, if as I've been led to believe this can be taken 72 hours after sexual contact and the egg has already been fertilized way before then is that abortion as all the wheels have been set in motion, how far back does it go before the fetus is not considered human, the newly fertilized egg, does that have the same rights as a six month old fetus. I try not to have any hard and fast rules on this grey issue the only point I disagree with is abortion as birth control and even then what if the woman used protection and it failed does she then have the right to seek an abortion.

Originally posted by ubermunche
Ok so how about the morning after pill, strictly speaking, if as I've been led to believe this can be taken 72 hours after sexual contact and the egg has already been fertilized way before then is that abortion as all the wheels have been set in motion, how far back does it go before the fetus is not considered human, the newly fertilized egg, does that have the same rights as a six month old fetus. I try not to have any hard and fast rules on this grey issue the only point I disagree with is abortion as birth control and even then what if the woman used protection and it failed does she then have the right to seek an abortion.

Good point! The government doesn't seem to want to get in the way of the pharmaceutical companies making this abortion pill. What hypocrisy!!! It is a grey area, and anything that falls in the category of 'grey area' should be left to personal choice. Props on the thread.

Peace

Originally posted by Dr Love
Once again, who are you to tell some other woman/girl
what to do with HER body?

Once again, the woman doesn't abort herself. She isn't killing
HER own body, she is killing someone else's.

She stops another human being's heart from beating.
When one human stops another human's heart,
then that person has KILLED. It is society's duty to protect
people from being killed by other people. It's called civilized
society. That's who we are ... members of civilized society
trying to get some people to stop killing other helpless people.