The "One who does not believe in gods = Communist" conspiracy?

originally posted by: Aphorism
If we were to be atheistic about communism, we'd find that there is still no governing agency, neither state nor god, and it is still just humans developing necessary illusions meant to keep the populace in check.

Exactly, there is no evidence to support any claims that our populations are kept in check by anything other than just...other humans.
I assume that you also agree then, that belief (or lack thereof) in gods does not automatically equate to a particular political ideology of the believer/non-believer.

a reply to: grainofsand

Exactly, there is no evidence to support any claims that our populations are kept in check by anything other than just...other humans.
I assume that you also agree then, that belief (or lack thereof) in gods does not automatically equate to a particular political ideology of the believer/non-believer.

Yes. Correlation does not imply causation. Ideology, whether religious or non-religious in its metaphysical foundations, is still ideology—it is always composed of human beings acting out their own personal narratives. Whether their narrative is supplied and founded upon this or that belief, God or state, nature or nurture, is of no consequence.

a reply to: Aphorism
I imagine it would be much more difficult to recognise a human led ideology when one has blind faith for an invisible unverifiable entity being in charge. Especially when the ideology shares the same message as the alleged god/s.

originally posted by: Aphorism
Christianity is the most atheistic of religions. With the crucification of Christ we see the metaphorical removal and exit of God from the real world—we are granted freedom from our sins, free will, and choice of beliefs, with no divine intervention involved in determining our own becoming. In other words, we can, on our own volition, determine the outcome of humanity without the need for the supernatural. But the state in communism is no different than the God in Christianity, the idea that there is this governing agency determining the outcome of human affairs. If we were to be atheistic about communism, we'd find that there is still no governing agency, neither state nor god, and it is still just humans developing necessary illusions meant to keep the populace in check.

This is just a silly notion. The "most atheistic" religions would be those that do not have any deities, such as Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism. Even religions where nature is divine, like animism, is far more atheistic than any religion with a creator god.

Christianity is the antithesis of "atheistic" . . . not only is there a core belief in a creator god, but you must believe in the material incarnation and resurrection of his son (which is really him, in order to perpetuate a monotheistic bent), and the "holy spirit", which is still really the creator god. Nowhere, does Christianity claim that Jesus removed the creator god from the planet . . . in fact, belief and obedience through his son (which is really Yahweh, unless you are of the Christianity is a pagan religion crowd) is required or salvation is held back.

Free will is not equal to "atheistic", which would be the non-belief in any higher supernatural entity.

a reply to: solomons path
Agreed. Good points.

a reply to: grainofsand

The notion is popular with the Christian community, especially in America where it started. Originally, it was started as propaganda against Marxism, due to the philosophy's very critical stance on religion. Lenin solidified the connection when he said that "Atheism was a natural and inseparable part of Marxism". Of course, Lenin was just imposing his personal views on the subject, as Marx never talked about Atheism or specifically outlawing religion.

During the "Red Scare" era of America, it was easy to sway public opinion against Communism to a very religious (mostly Christian) nation. Communist countries outlawed religion (which was scary to "god fearing Americans"), so the populace would not put a higher power above the control of the state. They don't seem to actually research and find out that Lenin, Stalin, Pot, or Mao were of a religion before they embraced their ascension within the revolutions they brought about. The "Red Scare" era also saw a rise in Christian exceptionalism in America and within the government . . . that's when (50's) the notion of a "Christian Nation" began to really take hold and the "god" was added to gov buildings, money, pledge, etc.

However, the education system is so flawed in this country most people don't know history past a decade . . . and when they do talk about the history of this country it is never objectively.

In the meantime, we have at least 3 generations of Americans who arrogantly promote the church/gov propaganda that organized support for the "cold war".

originally posted by: amfirst1
They do believe in God. Their god is the state.

That's why they are trying to replace the family with the state, with handouts as if the state is the parents taking care of the kids.

That's why feminism is trying to destroy the family and say that a women should not need a man, but the state.

Government is their god so they can force people to do want the government wants. THerefore, God must be destroy and replace by the feds.

Got any proof to back up those crazy assertions?

a reply to: grainofsand

There is no question that Communist ideology and Atheistic ideology are, and have been historically, aligned with each other. That is not to say that all Communists are Atheists, nor all Atheists are Communists at an individual level. It simply means that those who founded Communism, and the fundamental Communist belief system, is based in large part to the God-less Atheism beliefs and ideology. There is simply no question about it, based on world history.

Communist Atheists:
Karl Marx
Pol Pot
Kim Jong IL
Joseph Stalin
Napoleon Bonaparte

Communist Atheist Governments:
China
Former Soviet Union (Russia)

In short, Communist-Atheist Governments do not want their mass population to believe in an Almighty God..., - they want the mass population to believe that the Almighty Government is their God - thus communists and atheists have much more in common than they would otherwise have you believe. If they are not directly related, then they certainly are very close cousins.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: ketsuko

The problem with communism is human nature or just nature in general. We are programmed to compete by our biology. Communism attempts to stamp out that drive to compete and better ourselves.

Yes! It eliminates the need for competition, because one of the behaviors that makes us unique as human beings is our inclination to sacrifice competition for progress. Instead of forcing several individuals to pit their skills against one another with the end result being a single victor and a bunch of beaten dogs who no longer want to play the game or have forgotten what the prize was and just wanna throw down with the guy who beat them, we throw our talents into one pool so that everyone comes out a winner.

That trait isn't unique to us. I can think of another species on the planet that not only does this, but does it better and more consistently. They are called ants.

a reply to: rickynews

Napoleon Bonaparte was the Emperor of France. He was not a communist in any way, shape or form. For one thing he died when Marx was just three years old. And Marx did not think up Marxism in his cradle. You're being ridiculous now. Can I ask why you seem to have this burning hatred for atheists?

a reply to: rickynews

So if name a bunch of religious dictators and religious governments (like Hitler, any middle east ruler, Putin, etc) does that mean that I can make links to religion and totalitarianism or can we just agree that some people in the world are huge assholes and this has NOTHING to do with their religious beliefs?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: rickynews

So if name a bunch of religious dictators and religious governments (like Hitler, any middle east ruler, Putin, etc) does that mean that I can make links to religion and totalitarianism or can we just agree that some people in the world are huge assholes and this has NOTHING to do with their religious beliefs?

You can attempt to make such links, but reality and common sense, as well as documented World history, will be ample evidence that Communism and Atheism have been, and continue to be, aligned and related.

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: rickynews

So if name a bunch of religious dictators and religious governments (like Hitler, any middle east ruler, Putin, etc) does that mean that I can make links to religion and totalitarianism or can we just agree that some people in the world are huge assholes and this has NOTHING to do with their religious beliefs?

You can attempt to make such links, but reality and common sense, as well as documented World history, will be ample evidence that Communism and Atheism have been, and continue to be, aligned and related.

You're operating under a logical fallacy. Just because most communists are atheists, the reverse is not true. Most atheists are not communists.

IMO, it is important to distinguish Communist Atheist Governments and Communist or Atheist people/individuals - which are not always one in the same, and not always in lock step with each other. I absolutely believe that there are good people who happen to either be an Atheist, a Communist, or both. So, this is not an insult directed at people or individuals necessarily - rather, it is based on the ideology of either communism, atheism, or both.

originally posted by: rickynews

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: rickynews

So if name a bunch of religious dictators and religious governments (like Hitler, any middle east ruler, Putin, etc) does that mean that I can make links to religion and totalitarianism or can we just agree that some people in the world are huge assholes and this has NOTHING to do with their religious beliefs?

You can attempt to make such links, but reality and common sense, as well as documented World history, will be ample evidence that Communism and Atheism have been, and continue to be, aligned and related.

Apparently you fail at logic. I just gave an example of links to totalitarianism and religion just like you linked communism to atheism. If you can link communism to atheism with your shaky premises, then I can link religion to totalitarianism using similar premises. Your logic fails.

a reply to: rickynews

There is no question that Communist ideology and Atheistic ideology are, and have been historically, aligned with each other. That is not to say that all Communists are Atheists, nor all Atheists are Communists at an individual level. It simply means that those who founded Communism, and the fundamental Communist belief system, is based in large part to the God-less Atheism beliefs and ideology. There is simply no question about it, based on world history.

There is also no question regarding the fact that the vast majority of Nazis were Christians. It would therefore make sense to assume that all Christians are sympathetic enough with the Nazism regime that they may be construed as a possible Nazism movement in the making.

That's the logic I am reading here - and have read in a great many of your posts and thread, actually. And your "not to say all atheists are communists" line is little more than a disclaimer aimed at maintaining a judicial facade.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: ketsuko

The problem with communism is human nature or just nature in general. We are programmed to compete by our biology. Communism attempts to stamp out that drive to compete and better ourselves.

Yes! It eliminates the need for competition, because one of the behaviors that makes us unique as human beings is our inclination to sacrifice competition for progress. Instead of forcing several individuals to pit their skills against one another with the end result being a single victor and a bunch of beaten dogs who no longer want to play the game or have forgotten what the prize was and just wanna throw down with the guy who beat them, we throw our talents into one pool so that everyone comes out a winner.

That trait isn't unique to us. I can think of another species on the planet that not only does this, but does it better and more consistently. They are called ants.

You're right, I mistyped. What I should have said was "one of the behaviors that is commonly held as making us unique as a species". Because, you know, we humans have this superiority complex. We can make bombs and guns, so bow down to us or we'll burn down your forest and build condos or whatever.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

AI, you and Krazy, are not going to get through to someone that simply sticks their fingers in their ears and keeps repeating "ya huh . . . it's history". Never mind that said poster wouldn't know real history if it meant saving a life, they only know the "christian version of history".

Anybody with half a brain knows that Communism isn't about Atheism. Communism doesn't promote Atheism (outside of Stalin's secular initiatives), despite Communist governments outlawing religion. Believer's in the "conspiracy" don't ever seem to mention that Communism also killed homosexuals, intellectuals, rival political theorists, foreigners, etc. When we look at all three regimes, they also outlawed non-deistic religions like Buddhism and Taoism. Those regimes were Totalitarian . . . Atheism was not the motivator or driving force and the target wasn't to just "eliminate god" or they wouldn't have targeted education, science, medicine, ethnic groups, etc.

Stalin was Russian Orthodox, who denounced religion after hearing Lenin talk about Marxism. He was being raised/groomed to become a priest when he left to join the "revolution".

So, while Stalin was no peach, he was not exactly what you would call a died-in-the-wool atheist. He was more a secular minded religious opportunist, which is a personal character trait. He did not use atheism to gain control, but religious principles that were modified to fit his own, sick and twisted method of revolution.

Pol Pot was a Catholic, but more important to him, a nationalist. He saw western influence, especially the missionaries and various other converters of Cambodians, as destroying the countries heritage. Pot shed his Catholicism and the notion of a "christian god", but still believed in heaven, destiny, guiding hand of universe, and (much like Hitler) thought he was doing "divine work" . . . which doesn't sound like too much of an Atheist.

The inflammatory comparison between the two is a logical fallacy in which the secular nature of Communism is assumed to justify the conclusion that all secularists are Communists, which is clearly not the case since an attribute of one system may also be an attribute of other systems. The American constitutional republic, for example, is also secular in nature.

Christians love to throw the false analogy of "Atheism = Communism" . . . yet, forget, all the leaders also had short hair, wore heavy wool military jackets, were nationalistic, were raised Christian, ate food, drank water, were human. They also like to revise history about America, by calling it a christian nation, but forget the fact that America is a secular republic.

So, which of the many factors they shared were the cause of the killings . . . outlawed religion, short hair, fancy jackets, being raised in christianity, being nationalistic, or simply being human?

It's also a documented fact that the claim which accompanies the "Atheism = Communism" charge that "Atheism is responsible for mass murder". The only way believers can even remotely make that claim seem legit is by adding Stalin, Pot, and Mao, Hitler is usually thrown in, despite Germany being a true "christian nation" and Hitler claiming to be doing "god's work" and claimed to be a christian until the day he died (or didn't if you like that CT). Just looking at the list of conflicts where the only difference of the opposing factions were religion gives upward of 800 million, so I don't see the "atheism responsible for more mass murder" claim when compared to religion . . . religion still wins out anyway.

The whole house of cards doesn't carry much weight, when seen without the veil of christian and cold war propaganda.

a reply to: solomons path

Yea, you're probably right. If a person has deluded themselves so much that he can make the comparison, "Atheist = communism," then his logical reasoning faculties are probably already pretty skewed. It's a shame, because he is an example of a Christian that gives other Christians a bad name.

There have been some downright terrible things done throughout history by people.

Most of them have been done in the name of God, whatever God that may be at the time.

I commented in the thread you're probably referring to, and I'll summarize it here too: If the actions of select terrible people reflect the motive of all others who share the same "belief" then Christian/Catholic or any other religion fall under the same generalization.