Sandy Hook Forensic Evidence

originally posted by: Hmmmmmmm

originally posted by: 3mperorConstantinE
a reply to: aivlas

Unless EMT's are known to undertake (completely undocumented) CPR+electrocardiographic attempts at resuscitation on a patient with rigor-mortis after having died of FOUR gunshot holes to their face … then I would be forced to ‘guess’ that they were put on:
before

?

Glad I'm not the only one who is contemplating the implications of that oddity.

In some areas the AED screen is the confirmation they need to pronounce death on scene.

In my area they hook everyone up to the AED upon arrival, unless there is obvious decomposition.


I've been in emergency medicine for 20+ years as both a road paramedic and an ER RN, and I find nothing odd about this.

That is also what I have read. Unless, the head is decapitated or major organs are visible, the will always try to resuscitate.

originally posted by: starviego

originally posted by: Honcho
You honestly think if people would be motivated enough to stage an attack like this they wouldn't actually carry it out in reality? It would be to risky and harder to cover it up by doing it the hard way like that. Too many people were involved and the word would get out eventually. I doubt a group of psychos would squirm at having to kill a couple dozen people, to help sell their plan, children or not.
Explain to me how it would be more efficient to make up some phony story that never happened.

As Wolfgang Halbig has pointed out, there has not been one lawsuit filed by the victim's families, which is unheard of in these types of cases. In the Columbine massacre case of '99, family members filed numerous lawsuits which eventually forced the release of thousands of pages of official documents, which ended up feeding the conspiracy theories. Information uncovered by one parent resulted in an additional outside investigation being done by another agency. Thus you never know where those lawsuits can lead. Thus one motive for faking it may have been to close the books on the case early on.

Another reason may have been difficulty recruiting killers for the task. Even hardened assassins may have blanched at killing victims of such youth and innocence.

There was actually a lawsuit, but it was dropped due to the negative publicity and public comments being made. This could have dissuaded others from following suit.

Sandy hook lawsuit

originally posted by: 3mperorConstantinEit's a puzzle, it truly is~

not so much a puzzle as a despicable con-job.

originally posted by: tide88
You do not have to be dead to be a vicim.

I know this, you know this, and the author knows this...

i believe he's posing the question, to make people think....because his question has an obvious answer, which begs another question.

As far as the doors, could simply be a mistake. I'm sure it was chaotic I'm there, there are bound to be many different accounts.

i'm pretty sure the teacher would remember whether or not she locked the door.

if you're saying that the medic made a mistake in their report....i dunno about all that..

i'm not saying mistakes don't happen, i'm just saying i don't believe this was one..

originally posted by: troof
a reply to: tide88

Come on though. I appreciate we all deal with grief differently, but it did look a lot like the guy didn't realise he was immediately being filmed. And then proceeded to get into 'character'. If that was the only oddity in this tale then maybe it could be overlooked as strange but not pertinent.
How is it sick to discuss this? It's not like we've called a meeting at Newtown community center. All people want is the truth and it doesn't seem like we know what that is right now.

I just looked at the video again and you see him smile, almost looks a bit uncomfortable. It doesn't show him joking with anyone. You claim he didn't realize he was being filmed? He is stepping up to a podium with 20 microphones In front of him, he would have to be from another planet if he didn't think that the cameras were rolling.

Go to any funeral and you will often see this exact same behavior from a person giving a eulogy. Once you get up before that podium, you mind automatically floods with the memories of that person, no doubt this is exactly what this man felt.

As For oddities, sure, there are oddities in every case. Did you think OJ Simpson was guilty or innocent? If the glove doesn't fit, you have to acquit. The fact of the matter is, there is overwhelming evidence that the "official story" is exactly what happened. Evidence that I'm sure has not been released as well as evidence that has been released.

There are discrepancies is every case. I've watched OJ, Casey Anthony, the Blade Runner trial. You probably could look up any mass murder case and find similar discrepancies or oddities in them, but that hardly means there is a cover up or that this was staged.

Chaos creates oddities, in chaotic situations, eyewitnesses make mistakes, policemen make mistakes, emergency service members make mistakes. Remember, we are looking at this after the fact. When the police arrived, they didn't know if there was one gunman or twenty. Preservation of the crime scene, when the crime is actually being committed is probably the lAst thing on their minds.

originally posted by: Daedalus

originally posted by: tide88
You do not have to be dead to be a vicim.

I know this, you know this, and the author knows this...

i believe he's posing the question, to make people think....because his question has an obvious answer, which begs another question.

As far as the doors, could simply be a mistake. I'm sure it was chaotic I'm there, there are bound to be many different accounts.

i'm pretty sure the teacher would remember whether or not she locked the door.

if you're saying that the medic made a mistake in their report....i dunno about all that..

i'm not saying mistakes don't happen, i'm just saying i don't believe this was one..

Not the teacher, the responders.

So you admit mistakes do happen, but not in this case? Why?

You know, if I was in charge of this investigation, I probably wouldn't release the information anyway. The only people who are desperate to get their hands on it are the ones who don't believe the official story. Truth be told, no matter what is released or explained, you will always believe there is a conspiracy here, right? I bet if they released a video, people would say it was a Hollywood production, I.E moon landing.

IMO, the only people that have a right to the evidence is the family members and those directly effected. There have been other cases where people claim conspiracy and when information and names are released, those people are harassed and threatened.

Just wanted to say the AED leads are often hooked up just to see if there is a heart rate at all. People can seem obviously dead and even have such a weak pulse that you cant feel it so the AED is hooked up to see for sure if there is no electrical activity.

Not talking about your average wall-mounted public use AED here, but professional EMS equipment which also can act as a manual defib and full 12lead EKG.

It's a quick and simple CYA just in case the patient isn't truly dead.

a reply to: tide88

While I can most certainly appreciate the “chaos factor”, in the real world—and barring some fluke quantum mechanical superposition of macroscopic objects à la Schrödinger's Cat—then doors are either locked or unlocked.

And you are correct, someone doesn't have to be dead to be a victim.
Teacher D. Pisani up the hall, had been hit in the foot by a ricochet bullet fragment, so maybe that's what he meant by “live victims”, although the people in the classrooms next to the crime scene were hiding in the bathrooms.
So, save for the wounded Natalie Hammond in Room #9, the only people who even saw anything were the deceased (Pisani didn't see the shooter), thus “live victims” seems confusing.

Also, you speak about people harassing the parents if names would've been released in the report.
Apologies if this sounds judgmental to you, but even I can see that conspiracy-theorists weren't the ones who put anybody on Anderson Cooper, Katie Couric, CNN, beginning … 11 hours after the tragedy...

Long time lurker here compelled by these facts to add one more little odd bit that troubled me from the official account. Much like DNA, ballistics is a very advanced forensic science. Yet in this case, the presence of unspent shotgun shells at the scene was explained as a result of being dropped at the scene by unknown first responders. This was reported back in the fall -- then promptly dropped.

I know of no attempt to account for every round of ammo found at the scene -- spent or unspent -- beyond a very vague AL brought it to the scene or LEOs did. From the state report:

7. The live shotgun shells (other than the one found on the shooter and the ones found in the shooter’s car) that were located inside and outside of the school were in locations where first responders had been. Additionally, there were first responders who reported missing live shotgun rounds. Moreover, the shells were found in locations where there had not been reported sightings of any non-law enforcement individuals;

8. There were no expended shotgun shells found in the actual crime scene nor were any expended 12 gauge shotgun pellets or slugs recovered;

9. The only expended casings located outside of the school building were 5.56 mm casings located just outside the school’s front entrance, consistent with the shooter’s entry into the school; and

10. The officer who heard what he believed to be outside gunfire was in a position to have heard the shooter’s gunfire coming from window openings in the classroom in which the shooter was firing.

OK. WHICH unit(s) dropped the shells? How many? What EXACTLY were they doing that caused them to drop live ammo inside and outside the building? When did this happen?

Nothing I know about police tactics -- I was on the crime beat in a former life -- has them running around trying to load a shotgun in the middle of an active shooter situation. Patrol units are going to have their boomsticks in the trunk (I'm assuming for low-key patrols like Newtown) or locked down in the front-seat. Perhaps a department would oddly insist that the guns rolled unloaded until needed (!), but any patrol officer is going to pause to load the weapon instead of risking an AD by running into an unknow sitch and trying to load at the same time. Any tactical unit is certainly going to roll up fully loaded.

A huge puzzle for me to square with the received facts. This is where Occam's razor has me make a leap: Friendly fire.

I think LEA(s) unknown to us -- possibly even to the state -- fired 12-gauge rounds that day from outside the school into it. Those rounds may or have not struck a teacher or student -- again, I don't think the state wanted to answer that question even if state investigators knew to ask it. The spent casings were ejected and then picked up, and then additional live rounds ejected and otherwise "dropped" in the expectation of an armorer's audit of ammo. The spent shells thus became live shells that were "lost" at the scene. Live shells were also "lost" inside the school to further confuse the situation.

The line about no slugs or pellets found at the scene is curious to me as why would you look for such a thing if you found no shotgun shell casings -- plus it does not address the possibility that the slug lodged in a body. This is where I leave it: the very embarrassing, painful, negligent possibility that 2-3 rounds of 12 gauge slug were accidently pumped into a victim post-mortem by a LEO is what drives the odd disinterest in following all leads. The state has its narrative. It is dark and horrible, and covers 90% of the facts. AL did murder children. And that is good enough.

originally posted by: 3mperorConstantinE
a reply to: tide88

While I can most certainly appreciate the “chaos factor”, in the real world—and barring some fluke quantum mechanical superposition of macroscopic objects à la Schrödinger's Cat—then doors are either locked or unlocked.

And you are correct, someone doesn't have to be dead to be a victim.
Teacher D. Pisani up the hall, had been hit in the foot by a ricochet bullet fragment, so maybe that's what he meant by “live victims”, although the people in the classrooms next to the crime scene were hiding in the bathrooms.
So, save for the wounded Natalie Hammond in Room #9, the only people who even saw anything were the deceased (Pisani didn't see the shooter), thus “live victims” seems confusing.

The officer, not EMT like the poster claims, said he believed the door was locked, not was locked. Reort.
You could only lock that door from the outside with a key, it didn't have an interior locking mechanism on it, however the bathroom that they were in did have a lock, and the teacher was also blocking that door with a storage cart. The full report also says that room 12s window was covered with paper from a previous lock down drill, so maybe they overlooked it, who knows. The fact of the matter the man giving the report obviously doesn't remember one way or another, since he uses the term believes, which would indicate he wasn't sure.

As for your claim that the only people who say anything were deceased, that is also incorrect. There were many witnesses, 10 children survived and said they saw a skinny male in Camo with a bazooka. Those are the victims the report is talking about.

You are posting here claiming that there was only one person that survived witnessed anything, yet that is completely false. That is the problem with this conspiracy. Misinformation being spread without any fact checking. I'm sure this will still not sway your opinion one way or another, which just further proves no matter how much information is released, you will believe it is a conspiracy. It's already set in your mind, nothing will change that, which is probably why the police don't really feel the need to release every single detail. They know the truth and so do the victims.

a reply to: TheFreeLance

I agree........and also add that is it normal SOP for LE to contaminate a crime scene by dropping ammo????
What about the cop heard over the radio saying he should have long rifle and shotgun? How does he know about a shotgun? Did he see the shells laying around before LE even allegedly dropped them? I absolutely believe that shotgun was used on at least some of the victims and left against the car when they ran. There are many things being covered up here.

BTW I have been meaning to ask if anybody knows someone in LE who could in any way find the name of the person in the police database that DNA hit was from? #NY100111106a from the DNA report in the OP.

"It's already set in your mind, nothing will change that."


Same could be said about you.

a reply to: SMOKINGGUN2012

The call out about the shot gun came after they had found adam dead.
It is coming from the officer at the car as he is securing it.

a reply to: SMOKINGGUN2012

Hopefully someone who can search that number ends up reading/hearing about it.

I'll add this as one of about 20 compiled oddities with respect to the locked/unlocked quantum-superpositioned door of Room #12:
In Room 12 that morning was a child, whose parent told of a different version of events then what has been reported (as quoted in the Hartford Courant)

Audra Barth, who was walking away from the school with her first-grade son and third-grade daughter, said a teacher took first-graders into the restroom after bullets came through the window.

Also in this article

First grade teacher Kaitlin Roig escaped unharmed when crazed gunman Adam Lanza forced his way into the elementary school on Friday - and so did all of her students.
The 29-year-old had been teaching 15 children at about 9:30 that morning when the classroom windows suddenly shattered.

Two days later (Sunday, 12/16), the family attempted to seek solace in the company of their community, at the inter-faith prayer vigil attended by President Obama. Unfortunately, they arrived to find it already filled to capacity:

Mr Barth said he could not understand why the organizers allowed the auditorium to fill with people from outside the community at the expense of families who endured the tragedy firsthand.

“They didn't even differentiate between us. This place is full of Sandy-Hookers. The other people coming in before us, I didn't even recognize a single face”, he said.

This family lived right up the road from the school.
Strangely enough, nowhere is anything mentioned in the report of bullets coming in through any windows.

Sadly, they were struck by cruel cosmic misfortune, when a fire started in their basement, and their house promptly burnt to the ground (along with their pets…RIP).

originally posted by: tide88
The full report also says that room 12s window was covered with paper from a previous lock down drill, so maybe they overlooked it, who knows. The fact of the matter the man giving the report obviously doesn't remember one way or another, since he uses the term believes, which would indicate he wasn't sure.

Or that he (Cipriano) was told by somebody else...

As for your claim that the only people who say anything were deceased, that is also incorrect. There were many witnesses, 10 children survived and said they saw a skinny male in Camo with a bazooka. Those are the victims the report is talking about.

Except, that no, that's not what the report is talking about, because those kids were not located in the rooms!
They had split into two groups, with some running down Riverside Dr., while the others ran over to the big-hearted elderly gentlemen with the ‘really small’ house.
So those weren't the “live victims” which they referred to located within the building.

Unless you mean the survivor who ‘played dead’ but it can't be her either because the 1st responders had just left those rooms! (#8 and #10 = 2nd and 3rd rooms on the left hand side of the northeast corridor)

But let's back up for a second; and I want to ask you a question about the survivors to which you were referring, the ones from the second room who ran (which I had omitted mention of both because they were NOT found at the school, as well as for the sake of simplicity, and you'll see why):

Q:
Did all of those kids see the shooter?

Just a binary question, [Y]es or [N]o?

I'm sure this will still not sway your opinion one way or another, which just further proves no matter how much information is released, you will believe it is a conspiracy. It's already set in your mind, nothing will change that

Well … I'm not quite sure that I've stated any opinions, per say, other than maybe the observation that this is “puzzling” (which is actually just an observation, and not exactly that contentious, either). But still, I am sorry for any observations of mine to which you have been subjected, or to which you have subjected yourself.

Although—and this is an actual opinion—it sure sounds to me like you've made up your mind about what other people think; which is quasi-interesting, if not predictably ironic~

originally posted by: tide88
Not the teacher, the responders.

yes, i addressed that.

So you admit mistakes do happen, but not in this case? Why?

it just doesn't feel right...it's a little difficult to explain, but i'll try..

i believe the "responder" in question was a police medic..i may be mistaken on that, and if i am, please, someone, let me know.

in any event, if it's a police medic, cops are trained observers...they're taught to take in details, not only because they hafta write detailed after-action reports, but because even small details might be important, either to their official business, or to detectives when they go over the report...in a situation like this (school shooting) it doesn't make sense that the person writing the report wouldn't know the room number of a room that was locked...a locked door would be a red flag...

it just doesn't square up. of course there will be mistakes, but to be fuzzy on an important detail like that...just doesn't seem right..

You know, if I was in charge of this investigation, I probably wouldn't release the information anyway. The only people who are desperate to get their hands on it are the ones who don't believe the official story. Truth be told, no matter what is released or explained, you will always believe there is a conspiracy here, right? I bet if they released a video, people would say it was a Hollywood production, I.E moon landing.

and boy, are we ever glad you're NOT in charge....

so you're telling me you believe the entirety of the official story on this matter? no doubts? nothing seems even a little off to you? the whole story is complete, factual, and without any inconsistencies, or questionable bits?

if you remember, people were asking early on if there was any video from inside the school, like there was in columbine...nobody really questions columbine..the reason for that, is because there was footage from inside the school of the little bastards doing their thing... according to EVERYTHING anyone can find, there were no cameras inside the school, so no footage exists. that's one less piece of evidence available to corroborate the official version of events. if there was footage, there would be far less doubt.

there is a huge difference between the moon landings, and a school shooting...that was a lousy comparison, so was the OJ thing....i don't remember them trying to pass MORE laws to infringe upon the rights of the people after OJ....i don't remember a massive knife debate after OJ.....when an event of this magnitude occurs, and the government starts up the rhetoric of fear, and "we need to infringe upon your rights", and creates a national hysteria, and states start passing laws that are harmful to liberty, and politicians start blustering, and using the dead to curry political favor...when that starts happening because of a single event, the rational among us want to make sure that we're being told the absolute, unvarnished truth about said event...i'm terribly sorry if that sounds unreasonable to you.

IMO, the only people that have a right to the evidence is the family members and those directly effected. There have been other cases where people claim conspiracy and when information and names are released, those people are harassed and threatened.

and again, i think i speak for quite a few here when i say that i am very glad that your opinion isn't driving anything official in this matter.

it really annoys me when people come on to ATS, and start telling people what they do and don't have a right to know. nobody's asking for names, or addresses(those are already available anyway), nor is anyone asking for personally identifying information, or pictures of dead kids...we're asking not to be jerked around, and fed blacked out pages, when we request information...we're asking for accurate, complete information, so we can be informed. so we can decide for ourselves if this whole thing passes the smell test..

why do you think it's so wrong to want to make sure what we're being told is true?

a reply to: Daedalus
Bravo Daedalus,
Well put and articulate, indeed.

originally posted by: TheFreeLance
Long time lurker here compelled by these facts to add one more little odd bit that troubled me from the official account. Much like DNA, ballistics is a very advanced forensic science. Yet in this case, the presence of unspent shotgun shells at the scene was explained as a result of being dropped at the scene by unknown first responders. This was reported back in the fall -- then promptly dropped.

it was probably dropped, because it was considered not only a minor detail, but also one of little-to-no significance..

OK. WHICH unit(s) dropped the shells? How many? What EXACTLY were they doing that caused them to drop live ammo inside and outside the building? When did this happen?

Nothing I know about police tactics -- I was on the crime beat in a former life -- has them running around trying to load a shotgun in the middle of an active shooter situation. Patrol units are going to have their boomsticks in the trunk (I'm assuming for low-key patrols like Newtown) or locked down in the front-seat. Perhaps a department would oddly insist that the guns rolled unloaded until needed (!), but any patrol officer is going to pause to load the weapon instead of risking an AD by running into an unknow sitch and trying to load at the same time. Any tactical unit is certainly going to roll up fully loaded.

i would imagine tactical units dropped them, during their sweep of the building...if you're using a sidesaddle on your shotgun, or you're running with shells on your vest, sometimes they'll dislodge during normal operation, i've had it happen before...i don't think it was a matter of an officer fumbling with shells to load his weapon, and dropping a couple..

A huge puzzle for me to square with the received facts. This is where Occam's razor has me make a leap: Friendly fire.

I think LEA(s) unknown to us -- possibly even to the state -- fired 12-gauge rounds that day from outside the school into it. Those rounds may or have not struck a teacher or student -- again, I don't think the state wanted to answer that question even if state investigators knew to ask it. The spent casings were ejected and then picked up, and then additional live rounds ejected and otherwise "dropped" in the expectation of an armorer's audit of ammo. The spent shells thus became live shells that were "lost" at the scene. Live shells were also "lost" inside the school to further confuse the situation.

the problem with this, is that there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence to support this having happened....

yes, there is a radio call from an officer, reporting that a long gun, and a shotgun were in use, and that doesn't make any sense at all, unless he saw spent shells on the ground...it's also entirely possible if he wasn't the first on the scene, that he spotted an unspent shell, dropped by another officer, and then assumed it belonged to a hostile, and reported, based on that assumption..which i wouldn't blame him for making an assumption in a situation like that....better safe than sorry...

The line about no slugs or pellets found at the scene is curious to me as why would you look for such a thing if you found no shotgun shell casings -- plus it does not address the possibility that the slug lodged in a body. This is where I leave it: the very embarrassing, painful, negligent possibility that 2-3 rounds of 12 gauge slug were accidently pumped into a victim post-mortem by a LEO is what drives the odd disinterest in following all leads. The state has its narrative. It is dark and horrible, and covers 90% of the facts. AL did murder children. And that is good enough.

i think it was more to note that in the course of examining the scene, no expended slugs or pellets were found, not to imply that they were purposely looking for them.

additionally, i personally find it hard to believe that a slug would lodge in a body....have you ever shot anything with one of those things? they're friggin' NASTY.....BUT, even if one HAD lodged in a body, it would have been found during autopsy...

and on what do you base this theory of shotguns being discharged into bodies by LEOs? it's kind of a sick idea....

a reply to: introV

"The Devil's in the details"

"...Giant ships make even better toys, walking
on the moon" - The Police

Maiden Voyage for the HMS Lusitania:

Arrived at Sandy Hook from Liverpool
9 13 07 9:05 AM

According to Wikipedia the official time Adam
Lanza's mother was shot was 9:05 AM

I made a chart.

9 13 07 (Maiden Voyage)
5 01 15 (Final Voyage)

Then I added numbers on the right column, subtracted numbers
on the bottom column and added numbers on the top column.

-------------22
09---13----07-----20
05---01----15-----12
04---12

then added x y cooridinates

A----B----C-----D
-----------22---------1
09--13---07---20----2
05--01---15---12----3
04--12----------------4

Here are the results:

A(2,3) - 9:05 AM (time)
B4 - 12 (month)
B(2,3) - 14 (day)
D(2,3) - 2012 (year)
C2 - 07 (location: CT)
C3 - 06 (dead adults)
C1-A4 - 26 (dead children)

I extensively researched all the
ships in the Canard-White Star Line
(BTW has a JP Morgan connection)
as well as a dozen "random shootings"
and disasters such as 911, Wacko, &
The Oklahoma City Bombings.

I found many other connections using the
same exact formula which is simple &
consistent.

However, the data is incomplete,
was wondering if others would look into
these shootings/disasters and connections
to these giant ships.

Rebel 5




If the states are listed in alphabetical
order CT. is the 7th state.

a reply to: rebelv

what the....f**k?

is this even on topic?