UK: Sale of unmarked Halal meat raises concerns....

originally posted by: flammadraco
At the Muslim festival of Blood Letting, animals see other animals slaughtered in front of them before it's their turn. Very humane.

That happens at most abattoirs. All the animals are in a queue, waiting to die - they can certainly hear and smell what is going on that's for sure.

a reply to: seeker1963

That's the key!

Special treatment of one religion over another does nothing more than create PROBLEMS!!!

The governments job is nothing more than to prevent people from being persecuted for their religious beliefs NOT pick favorites!

What are you talking about? How does anything about this have to do with any religion receiving special treatment over another? I'd rather eat a ribeye than a flank steak so I pay the difference in price. If I were a Muslim, I might want Halal meat and would be willing to pay a little premium for it. Isn't that how the free market works? Supply and demand?

Are you going to rage about Kosher dill pickles too? Does the government favor Kosher dills over non-Kosher ones?

What is it that you're arguing against exactly?

- the free market?
- religious freedom?
- cattle suffering?
- Muslims?

Is there some sort of government subsidization of Halal meat production that's not being addressed or are you just talking s#? How is the government (in the UK) picking favorites based on the technique used for slaughter?

a reply to: stumason

At the end of the day you have already confessed to playing devils advocate on this thread and as such there is no reason to get into the nitty gritty with you. Bottom line is it's abhorrent that unlabelled halal and kosher meat is now 15% of the food in the UK and the British Citizens have been unaware of this until the last two weeks.

This will have far reaching consequences and will feed right into the hands of right wing groups such as the BNP etc who dwell on nonsense like this. As said this is the kind if thing that causes more friction between ethnic groups and British People. It's about trust and that is something that is missing.

a reply to: theantediluvian

The whole point of this debate is it Was unlabelled and as such we had no choice to make.

If it's seems ok, then why hide the fact it's halal?

To put this into perspective, let's pretend I'm a halal butcher and 15% of the meat I sell in my shop is unlabelled non halal meat, how would that go down with the Muslim community?

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: seeker1963

That's the key!

Special treatment of one religion over another does nothing more than create PROBLEMS!!!

The governments job is nothing more than to prevent people from being persecuted for their religious beliefs NOT pick favorites!

What are you talking about? How does anything about this have to do with any religion receiving special treatment over another? I'd rather eat a ribeye than a flank steak so I pay the difference in price. If I were a Muslim, I might want Halal meat and be willing to pay a little premium for it. Isn't that how the free market works? Supply and demand?

Are you going to rage about Kosher dill pickles too? Does the government favor Kosher dills over non-Kosher ones?

What is it that you're arguing against exactly?

- the free market?
- religious freedom?
- cattle suffering?
- Muslims?

Is there some sort of government subsidization of Halal meat production that's not being addressed or are you just talking s#? How is the government (in the UK) picking favorites based on the technique used for slaughter?

Gonna call me a racist for making sense?

First off, I don't believe in eating GMO food, but yet I am forced to do so because my government refuses to label it!

Tell me this isn't about a religious belief????

I even offered a solution to the those whom are unemployed! Learn how to do it and satisfy the demand! Why are you so bent out of shape?

I am glad I got your Progressive heart pumping!

originally posted by: flammadraco
At the end of the day you have already confessed to playing devils advocate on this thread and as such there is no reason to get into the nitty gritty with you.

Fair enough

originally posted by: flammadraco
Bottom line is it's abhorrent that unlabelled halal and kosher meat is now 15% of the food in the UK and the British Citizens have been unaware of this until the last two weeks.

I wouldn't say that - the Sun's article is not the first and this has been doing the rounds for quite a few years. The Daily Mail carried a story back in 2010. I think it is only gaining traction now due to rising "Islamophobia"

originally posted by: flammadraco
This will have far reaching consequences and will feed right into the hands of right wing groups such as the BNP etc who dwell on nonsense like this. As said this is the kind if thing that causes more friction between ethnic groups and British People. It's about trust and that is something that is missing.

Meh..maybe amongst the bigoted few, I think most normal people will just be concerned about animal welfare, not that some dusky Sand-God has been pleased or not.

a reply to: stumason

The BNP is a party of Bigots so this is exactly the kind of thing they will use to their benefit. I'm surprised to hear it's been around since 2010 as this is the first I've heard about it.

That being said still does not make it right. My disdain towards it is for the welfare of the animal, I always buy Free Range, organic and Dolphin Friendly Tuna, have my own chickens and veggie patch and very conscious of what I eat and how it's welfare has been considered. Now I have to find out if my meat products are Halal or Kosher butchered as it's not even labelled.

Final thoughts as it's wayyyyy past my bedtime, it should be labeled and I should have a choice of what I am buying and eating. Anyone arguing against that has an agenda.

originally posted by: flammadraco
The BNP is a party of Bigots so this is exactly the kind of thing they will use to their benefit. I'm surprised to hear it's been around since 2010 as this is the first I've heard about it.

My night shifts are long and generally dull, so little slips past me as I surf the web, but if you don't read the Mail or other "right-wing" papers, chances are you wouldn't have heard of it as they are usually the first to be lighting the torches and sharpening the pitchforks over Johnny Foreigner.

originally posted by: flammadraco
That being said still does not make it right. My disdain towards it is for the welfare of the animal, I always buy Free Range, organic and Dolphin Friendly Tuna, have my own chickens and veggie patch and very conscious of what I eat and how it's welfare has been considered. Now I have to find out if my meat products are Halal or Kosher butchered as it's not even labelled.

Same here - although I am not overly bothered so much by the welfare, it just tastes better. I haven't had battery eggs in years.

originally posted by: flammadraco
Final thoughts as it's wayyyyy past my bedtime, it should be labeled and I should have a choice of what I am buying and eating. Anyone arguing against that has an agenda.

Indeed and I think with enough public backlash - and there most likely will be - there will be a demand to have it labelled as such. Let market forces do the rest.

a reply to: theantediluvian

I'll have to take your word for it.

But, more humane or not, Halal and Kosher butchery is concerned, first and foremost, with ensuring that all the blood is drained from the animal before it is consumed.

That's obviously not a priority to everyone else who isn't a follower of those faiths.

Not averse to a bit of blood myself. I like a bloody steak now and then.

And I used to eat raw liver (though I don't recommend that for general consumption).

a reply to: seeker1963

Gonna call me a racist for making sense?

First off, I don't believe in eating GMO food, but yet I am forced to do so because my government refuses to label it!

Tell me this isn't about a religious belief????

I even offered a solution to the those whom are unemployed! Learn how to do it and satisfy the demand! Why are you so bent out of shape?

I am glad I got your Progressive heart pumping!

I've never called you a racist but boy aren't you quite the race pimp!

The company I work for operates several cold storage facilities and among our customers are some of the largest meat producers in the world. Cases of Halal meat and poultry are very distinctively marked because they fetch a premium and of course Halal suppliers aren't purchasing anything that's not certified. We don't handle any sort of carcasses so I'm unfamiliar with that aspect.

I just don't see how this is "special treatment of one religion over another?" The main beef (pun intended) that people in the UK claim to have with Halal slaughter is that animals aren't stunned. I'm not sure that they even understand what stunning is but whatever. Here in the U.S. all meat and poultry plants, Halal, Kosher or not, are required to conform to the same USDA standards for animal welfare and sanitation. Halal itself doesn't not preclude stunning and regardless of "stunning," the animals are going to be bled to death at every slaughterhouse everywhere, they don't kill them with kindness or an overdose of heroin. In fact, the producers I'm aware of do stun the animals before slaughter.

What people should be even more concerned with than Halal certification is the country of origin. For instance, I can query the database right now and see purchase orders for meat imported from all over the place — Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Korea, China, etc.

Or how about the fact that industry as a whole is pretty f'ing shady and does everything it can to thwart outsiders from filming their facilities so that the world at large can't see their mistreatment of animals from birth onward? It just seems like disproportionate consternation over Halal on religious grounds.

Actually, maybe we do agree. Special treatment of any one religion over another is wrong, so why should we disproportionately s# on Halal?

BTW, I'm with you 100% on GMO labeling. The really scary thing is there is basically little or no choices for non-GMO products, particularly in processed foods. I don't know that you can find anything containing corn, corn syrup or corn starch that isn't from GMO crops. The government doesn't refuse to label GMO product, corporate lobbyist coerce politicians to keep them from passing laws that require companies to label GMO product. It's a subtle distinction, I know, but I think it gets to the root of the problem — corporativism.

How does what food we eat affect the way we treat each others as human beings?

i.e. Why does world religion not GTFU and get over the barbaric practices from time when there were many less people on this planet and hygiene was a matter of life and death because they lacked the knowledge and practical tools we have today to ensure food is safe to eat?

ALL religious food preparation practices should be banned IMO. It's okay to not eat a food, but to demand it be prepared in a certain way to suit whatever religious bent one has is just ridiculous in the world of 2014

a reply to: flammadraco
Thank you, now I get it. That is very disturbing.

originally posted by: BMorris
Why does it matter if Halal meat is not labelled as such, as long as it complies with UK standards.

I can understand it being an issue if non Halal meat is labelled as Halal, that would be contrary to established laws, but there is no requirement to label Halal meat as Halal,

Sure there is, what if the customers don't want to eat it? What if eating Halal meat goes against someones religious beliefs?

I hate to break it to some of you . If you spent sometime on farms and ranches you will find a lot of folks just slit the throat of a pig sheep and many times cows also. Hell I was helping with it and we never even heard the words kosher or halal . That was just the way it was done.

If you can compare a standard slaughter house and just doing it by a slit throat personally I will take the bled out . I was taught when killing for food do it as fast as possible minimize suffering and be thankful for the food this life has given you. Lets put that in perspective. Hunted 50 years killed many of game animals worked farms and ranches in my younger years. Maybe 3 -5 big game a year butchering for the farms and ranches. I have been a party to alot of butchering in my lifetime.I can drink coffee and eat a doughnut while field dressing a elk or deer but standard slaughter houses make me sick. I wont go into details. It is hard to be a carnivore after being in a standard slaughter house.

I am not Islam friendly either. My view is based life experiences not religious.

originally posted by: BMorris
Why does it matter if Halal meat is not labelled as such, as long as it complies with UK standards.

I can understand it being an issue if non Halal meat is labelled as Halal, that would be contrary to established laws, but there is no requirement to label Halal meat as Halal,

Because we consider it absolutely barabaric. I don't want to choose not to do this in my country but want to see it outlawed firmly, with prison as a result for such sales. That's how strongly some of us feel.

And the PM doesnt want to get involved, oh that poor overpaid, overworked whiny boy, eh? He is so tired, and sickened by his job, can't rise to the occasion or perform the elements of oath of office to uphold the freedoms and the people and issues of the day. Maybe he just feels underpaid, and not enticed by his wonderful pension and wonderful medical/dental plan. Maybe he needs to give his notice, and look for a better one, more suited to his interests.

If I imagined 2014 when I was a kid, I'm sure I was hoping more for flying cars and moon colonies - not debates about archaic religious customs and other such culture wars.

a reply to: kosmicjack

Yes, I kind of expected alot more from the 21st century.